Members Gary in NJ Posted May 1, 2009 Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 I have an older Yamaha Club III monitor - that I happen to like. I have recently replaced the LF driver and it sounds good too. The problem, the CTS/Motorola Piezo doesn't like a distorted signal. It causes the crappy HF device to fail. I've tried the OEM CTS (which is in it now @ $30+) as well as the $2 knock-off's, and they all fail just the same. Price is not an indication of quality here - piezo's are limited by design. So now I'm thinking, for a small investment, I can remove the peizo device and replace it with a horn flare/lens, HF driver and a 2-way x-over. The original CTS KNS1025/KSN1141B is a 3" x 7" shape, and I can't seem to find a flare that size. I don't mind cutting wood to make another shape fit, but I have limited space in which to work. The closest I have found is a Eminence APT150 at 7.5" x 4.5". It has a dispersion pattern of 100Hz x 50V, making it a short dispersion HF horn. I believe this is correct for a monitor. My question is, what is the proper shape for monitor use? Should I be looking for something square rather then rectangular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted May 1, 2009 Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 My question is, what is the proper shape for monitor use? Should I be looking for something square rather then rectangular? It's all about pattern control and how you want the pattern to occur in your setup. EG; do you want to hear the monitor only when you stand directly in front of it or do you want to hear it clearly as you travel about the stage. That describes two different pattern requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted May 1, 2009 Author Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 I would want the HF to drop off as I walked away from the monitor. We have monitors in front of each musician. This way one monitor will not bleed into another mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted May 1, 2009 Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 CTS KSN1025/KSN1141BThe "original" KSN1141B has internal protection while the KSN1025 does not. the KSN1141B is rated at 4x the power of the KSN1025! In any case did you open them up and see if they were really cooked or did just the 22ohm 1/2W internal resistor open up? The CTS "clones" probably do not have an internal resistor and you should add one externally in series. A .5uf non-polar capacitor in series will reduce the output by about 2db which would make them hold up better. These guys look like capacitors to the outside world so a capacitor in series acts like a resistor would in series with a speaker or horn driver to split the voltage (and thereby power). The resistor in series prevents the amp from seeing a large capacitive load (.3uf for that horn) as many amps will go into ultrasonic oscillations and cook out the piezo and/or just sound funky as the amp's protection does strange and mysterious things to your output waveform . Oh, and if you want to really overload your brain: http://piezosource.com/general/Piezo_info.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted May 1, 2009 Author Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 What is currently installed is the KSN1141B. The problem is that the piezo distorts if it receives an overdriven signal. It sounds fine with clean guitar or vocals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted May 1, 2009 Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 What is currently installed is the KSN1141B. The problem is that the piezo distorts if it receives an overdriven signal. It sounds fine with clean guitar or vocals.How big an amp are you using on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted May 1, 2009 Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 The problem is that the piezo distorts if it receives an overdriven signal. It sounds fine with clean guitar or vocals. It's not distorting ... it's only playing what you re sending it. The problem is you think the sound is different that it is because you are filtering it through guitar speakers. You need to put a speaker simulator in the line. OTOH ... piezos are usually only in cheapy boxes;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted May 1, 2009 Author Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 Mackie M1400i - 500 wpc @ 4-ohms. Typically I run two 8-ohm speakers per channel, and I typically run the Aux1 pot at 1/3 to 1/2 rotation. So the speakers are seeing 250 wpc max (500/2), but based on how I set the Aux1, I don't think I'm overpowering them. But every time I have damaged the piezo, it has been a clipped signal. Mind you, the other 3 monitors (which have HF drivers) have never had an issue with the same program material. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted May 1, 2009 Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 You could try these resistors in series with the piezo to roll off the high end a bit:http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062291Wire them both in series with the piezo. Something 20-24ohms at 10 watts will do if you have a better source than RadShak. But if your other three monitors match the "right" thing to do would be to get the horn and crossover they use and fit it into your Yammy somehow so you'll have (somewhat) matching monitors. Mismatched monitors can limit your GBF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted May 1, 2009 Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 do all club 3's use piezos? seems like OP may be better off buying a used club 4 or 5 wedge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted May 1, 2009 Author Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 do all club 3's use piezos? seems like OP may be better off buying a used club 4 or 5 wedge. Only the Club Series III Piezo (there was also a Club Series III Oak and Club Series III). Why purchase a new monitor when I can have this all sorted-out for well under $100? The box is in good shape and the LF in new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted May 1, 2009 Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 what crossover do you plan to use? if your cab has a piezo stock then the 'crossover' is incompatible with a CD HF setup. you will have a HF that is 10db or more hotter than it should be before it blows up from LF if you use an existing piezo network. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted May 1, 2009 Author Members Share Posted May 1, 2009 The current box doesn't use a crossover. I'd likely purchase an Eminence PXB2 series or a Dayton (Parts Express) XO2W Series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted May 2, 2009 Members Share Posted May 2, 2009 It could be a fun project. The little eminence bullet conmpression driver and a 3.5k crossover would work well. Make sure the HF is padded down with resisitors on the crossover or atleast somewhere before the HF device. HF drivers are more efficient (105-112 db 1w/1m and even higher) as woofers and piezos tend to be lower (95-99ish). Sounds like a neat project, and if you do end up scrapping it then so what. It's a learning experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members frankiefeedback Posted May 2, 2009 Members Share Posted May 2, 2009 If you're getting a passive crossover then why not just get a 1" compression driver? Take a look at loudspeakersplus.com and their clearance section, I've bought some nice horns there for cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 2, 2009 Members Share Posted May 2, 2009 If you're getting a passive crossover then why not just get a 1" compression driver? Take a look at loudspeakersplus.com and their clearance section, I've bought some nice horns there for cheap. Because of the size limitations of the existing box I would suppose. Unless you used a compact little 1" driver and could find a suitable horn flair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted May 2, 2009 Members Share Posted May 2, 2009 I have an older Yamaha Club III monitor - that I happen to like. I have recently replaced the LF driver and it sounds good too. The problem, the CTS/Motorola Piezo doesn't like a distorted signal. It causes the crappy HF device to fail. I've tried the OEM CTS (which is in it now @ $30+) as well as the $2 knock-off's, and they all fail just the same. Price is not an indication of quality here - piezo's are limited by design.So now I'm thinking, for a small investment, I can remove the peizo device and replace it with a horn flare/lens, HF driver and a 2-way x-over. The original CTS KNS1025/KSN1141B is a 3" x 7" shape, and I can't seem to find a flare that size. I don't mind cutting wood to make another shape fit, but I have limited space in which to work. The closest I have found is a Eminence APT150 at 7.5" x 4.5". It has a dispersion pattern of 100Hz x 50V, making it a short dispersion HF horn. I believe this is correct for a monitor.My question is, what is the proper shape for monitor use? Should I be looking for something square rather then rectangular?What types of gigs are you playing where you need guitars in the wedges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted May 4, 2009 Author Members Share Posted May 4, 2009 What types of gigs are you playing where you need guitars in the wedges? Bar/Club gigs. I put the guitars through the monitors so the guitar player on one side of the stage can hear the other. Otherwise stage volume becomes an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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