CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 Funny thing ... y'all think this is new:lol: Who does? I've been talking about this for decades. Everyone's poo-poo'ed it...."people just need to retrain from factory jobs to tech", "it's a global economy...we all benefit". That's not how it's worked out. The playing field isn't level and our government isn't doing anything to level it. Tariffs, import taxes etc. make it nearly impossible for many US products to compete overseas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 Honestly? Not much you (or anyone) can do... A company like JBL doesn't live exclusively from the US market. Cutting costs in labor allows them to compete for growing markets, such as South Africa, India, Brazil and others... That's not my point. I know JBL sells around the world. What you're not seeing is that if we continue to ship jobs overseas, there will be nobody here in the US to buy anything. China is already gravely concerned about our debt...they can't continue to loan us money so we can buy their stuff. At some point the chickens come home to roost. 10-20% of our population isn't working. Those people can't buy "stuff" and "stuff" (as opposed to simply life essentials like food, basic clothing, and shelter) is what has kept the US economy going. Those who are working are earning comparatively less, so they buy less "stuff" too. It's not working, and it can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 http://www.QSCaudio.com You're welcome. So, do you know where many of those products are manufactured? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 It's a very complex problem with even more complex solutions. A golbal economy has benefits and disadvantages everywhere and works well when the playing field is relatively level. Unfortunately this is usually not the case due to politics, artifical vaulation of Chinese currency is one way political manipulation of a "free market" makes it not free. Same thing regarding uniform standards for things like polution, labor practices (relating to health & safety), import/export tariffs, etc. All of this can count for 30% of the cost "savings" that really has nothing to do with the real cost of manufacture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JoeDirt Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Don't forget the average wage of a Chinese worker is less than $2,000 a year. Basically government sanctioned slave labor over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Don't forget the average wage of a Chinese worker is less than $2,000 a year. Basically government sanctioned slave labor over there. Don't forget the average cost of living is about 1/10th of that in the US or Europe. That would normalize to earning the equiv. of $20k here. Must compare apples with apples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Who does? I've been talking about this for decades. Everyone's poo-poo'ed it...."people just need to retrain from factory jobs to tech", "it's a global economy...we all benefit". That's not how it's worked out. The playing field isn't level and our government isn't doing anything to level it. Tariffs, import taxes etc. make it nearly impossible for many US products to compete overseas. If a product can't compete in oversea markets due to import taxes what could the government here do about it? Who loses when competition is restricted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 If a product can't compete in oversea markets due to import taxes what could the government here do about it? Who loses when competition is restricted? We can institute reciprocal taxes/tariffs. See how long China can last when everything in Wal*Mart costs 40% more. We import way more than we export. Our budget deficit would disappear, demand for US goods HERE would rise, creating more jobs. Obama has said it, and it's the one thing I do agree with him about: Give the US worker a level playing field, and he can't be beaten by anyone in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chip Stewart Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 We can institute reciprocal taxes/tariffs. See how long China can last when everything in Wal*Mart costs 40% more. We import way more than we export. Our budget deficit would disappear, demand for US goods HERE would rise, creating more jobs. Obama has said it, and it's the one thing I do agree with him about: Give the US worker a level playing field, and he can't be beaten by anyone in the world. I totally agree with everything you said. Unfortunately, we (the U.S.A.) will not be able to institute reciprocal taxes/tariffs UNTIL we no longer need to borrow money from the Chinese. As long as we need the Chinese to buy our T-bills to finance our deficit, reciprocal taxes/tariffs are off the table. If we put reciprocal taxes/tariffs in place, they stop buying our T-bills and we default on our debt obligations. Eliminating the deficit and national debt is a national security issue. It amazes me how many people, especially our politicians, don't get it. If you want manufacturing jobs to come back to the U.S.A., you first need to vote out the scum who sold us to the Chinese and vote in people who will look out for our interests. Keep that in mind when you vote in November. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Even a MORE level playing field would help considerably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JoeDirt Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Don't forget the average cost of living is about 1/10th of that in the US or Europe. That would normalize to earning the equiv. of $20k here.Must compare apples with apples. Cost of living is going up over there and the government keeps on building and building. The local populace cannot afford to rent or own all these new buildings the government is throwing up at a crazy pace. I expect China to crash hard in the coming years, something has to break. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Even a MORE level playing field would help considerably. I might be happy if they had to deal with an OSHA and an EPA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 We can institute reciprocal taxes/tariffs. See how long China can last when everything in Wal*Mart costs 40% more. We import way more than we export. Our budget deficit would disappear, demand for US goods HERE would rise, creating more jobs. Obama has said it, and it's the one thing I do agree with him about: Give the US worker a level playing field, and he can't be beaten by anyone in the world. Unfortunately, reciprocal tariffs hurt everybody much worse. Is your dollar going to be worth more by slapping import taxes on Chinese/Korean/whatever goods? Or will you have more money to buy more American stuff? Import taxes in other countries hurt the majority of the population they are designed to "protect." I'd rather have the economic freedom to buy what I want from wherever I want, without the government adding a new tariff that makes it financially impossible to buy the product I want because a similar "American" product is available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 Unfortunately, reciprocal tariffs hurt everybody much worse. Is your dollar going to be worth more by slapping import taxes on Chinese/Korean/whatever goods? Or will you have more money to buy more American stuff? Import taxes in other countries hurt the majority of the population they are designed to "protect."I'd rather have the economic freedom to buy what I want from wherever I want, without the government adding a new tariff that makes it financially impossible to buy the product I want because a similar "American" product is available. You're not getting it. Tariffs don't have to be 'forever'....just long enough to get the other country to rescind their tariffs and restore a fair trade system. The only other option is a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members allexcosta Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 The only other option is a war. More likely... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 10, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 More likely... Sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rotebass Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 I'm with Craigv on this one, US government gives out free money to every taxpayer, how much of that stayed in the US economy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Many folks are using their tax returns to pay off debt, debt the banks own. Debt created buying stuff made overseas. Damn housing bubble, that's what bugs me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dukey Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 Also keep in mind that chinese people will, normally, work twice the hours for half the pay (or even less) you (or I) make. I'm in international forwarding and transport dealing with exports from the EU, I'm an amployee of a global forwarder (so I have colleagues in a lot of different countries all over the world) and I know from experience that my colleague in Beijing works until at least 23:30 (there's a 7 hours time difference between China and us - If I send him an email by 16:00 our time I still might get a reply and when I'm starting ar 08:00 I just might have another question. Also don't forget that, at present, the US authorities make it more and more difficult to export goods to the US - at present we need to pre-warn US government when ever one of our clients has goods ready and until the OK is given, nothing can be shipped. All this ofcourse because of the so-called safetymeasures against international terrorism - US government needs to know everything that there is to know about the products you like to be able to buy - big brother is watching you. Outsourcing is a global problem and there's a simple reason: Shipping out raw materials to 3rd world countries, having the materials made over there and shipping back the finished product just is a lot cheaper then having the same product manufactured in your own country - I think we even were one of the first countries doing this - 120 years ago we had a thriving textile industry but last century a lot of workers were unempolyed because India was a lot cheaper - this is government policy - companies can get tax reductions when doing this so, as one of you mentioned - this is what capitalism is all about. Only sad that the average Joes (like you and me) don't really benefit from it. Just my 2 cents thoughGreetzWill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 10, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 Will, I wouldn't necessary state that any one country has more resourceful or industrious workers. I have an office IT job, and I'm paid hourly now (the position was salaried) because it was deemed more fair. That's because I'm on an on-call rotation with 3 co-workers. We are on 24/7 call for a week each. Phone rings at 2am, I have to handle whatever comes up, until it's solved. This is *very* common in IT. I know a lot of business owners (like Mark at audiopile) who work 120 hours per week, never take a week off, and have done this since starting their business. My ex- is among those whose job entails nationwide travel. They are technically not "working", but if you call air travel, car rental, and hotel stay "fun", you need to explain yourself:D. Many people I know work more than one job to make ends meet, or at least get close. The 40 hour week (remember the 9-to-5, 35hr week? Anyone? Bueller?) is a distant dream for most of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 You're not getting it. Tariffs don't have to be 'forever'....just long enough to get the other country to rescind their tariffs and restore a fair trade system. The only other option is a war. Craig, you have not explained how an import duty would help anyone. Import duties would hurt the American population far more than it would help us as individuals. That said, I'm sure more than a few corporations here would love the opportunity to restrict competition. Do we add import tariffs only on finished goods? Do we add import tariffs on foreign steel? And, war...? That is an overstatement. As far as other countries having import duties; it costs their citizens because the market for outside products is artificially high. So if demand for local product rises, what also happens to the costs? We should not restrict open markets to "protect" our corporations. A better way to "level" the playing field would be to decrease spending on entitlement programs (all of them), while simultaneously reducing the tax burden on our citizens. This will be my last economic-related post in this thread as it has veered WAY off course. Please have a good day, even if we disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted February 10, 2010 Members Share Posted February 10, 2010 JBLs made in China? Won't be long before you can buy them at Walmart. Hooray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 10, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 10, 2010 This will be my last economic-related post in this thread as it has veered WAY off course. Please have a good day, even if we disagree. I hope you didn't feel this discussion was anything but amicable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DJMC Posted February 21, 2010 Members Share Posted February 21, 2010 Good news everybody! High end (and middle end) JBL products are NOT "made in China" I can personally attest to this fact. Recently purchased: one pair of PRX512m, and one PRX718s subwoofer. They assemble the product in Mexico, in a very high tech factory that has been producing Eon G2's for many long years. For the PRX line, they stopped production of Eons in Mexico and moved the entire Eon line to China. I've heard the new Eon line of speakers at GC, and they sound like crap! Even the QSC K-Series sound better (and they are also made in China). Back to the PRX's. They ship them back to Northridge CA where they are put thru rigorous testing and inspection, then are packaged and shipped from California location. My speakers took about 3.5 weeks from ordering to actual shipping from JBL Factory. I have the original invoices. Nothing wrong with "Made In North America" Since N.A.F.T.A.......these arrangements make us stronger on BOTH sides of the border. Get used to it, folks! I'd rather have Mexicans building my PRXs than buying cheap Chinese-made crap at Guitar Center!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted February 21, 2010 Members Share Posted February 21, 2010 I've heard the new Eon line of speakers at GC, and they sound like crap! Even the QSC K-Series sound better (and they are also made in China). surely you jest. i have a pair of the 515 eons at work and they easily trump any preceding series of eon; the G2 and the gray ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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