What is it with some bands??

[RoadRanger]

I suspect that if I required my employees to lift and haul 7,000 - 70,000 lb. objects... I'd be answering questions about L&I claims too.

Makes one wonder if there's a liability problem with dropping them 7,000 - 70,000 lb objects on them waterbags we're always talking about .

[W. M. Hellinger]

I love the description "errant emissions" Excellent!

I like my description: "public accessible environment"

It seems that while any and everyone has the right to decide to enter any premises open to the public, the owner/operator of that premises, service contractors and employees of the premises, and other patrons within the premises are held responsible (increasingly mandated by laws) to not cause any sort of harm to anyone else within the premises, or anyone who could potentially enter the premises, regardless of whether that premises is privately or publicly owned.

I say: "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." You can't have selective enforcement of the law, or laws that selectively target specific groups.

In this state, smoking has been banned in all restaurants and bars... except for casinos on reservations. WTF??? Is smoking in bars banned or not? Do I have the right to enter an establishment and not be subjected to second-hand smoke or not? Are OSHA SPL workplace regulations applicable to workplaces, or just some? Why is it that as a manufacture, I have to supply hearing protection for any and everyone that enters my place of business when SPL levels exceed 85dB in the workplace environment... but a band in a bar can blare away at 1000 times or more than the legal level, and if you don't like it, you can leave or pull-out your earplugs? Heck, I've never even seen *a warning sign inna bar... alerting the unsuspecting patron that entering that environment might be hazardous to their hearing.*

And maybe *that's* why some bands are so stinking loud. I suppose there's no reason to put up a warning sign or supply safety equipment for environments or situations that are blatantly obviously hazardous. So... if the band's so outrageously loud that anyone and everyone would easily recognize that situation as just stupid loud... then it's obvious to "enter at your own risk". I guess that's where smokers dropped the ball... they just didn't smoke enough to make it obvious that a bar with a bunch of folks smoking in the bar is "enter at your own risk". I guess if the smoke in the bar was so thick you couldn't see your hand... :blah:

[DBR]

Hello Folks,

I am a Bass player and what bugs me is when I play and the bass rig is sitting at stage level and is not near my ears, I can't hear it therefore drives me to play loud but when the rig is at ear level, I seem to have more control of the volume my instruments put out. Makes sense, doesn't it? I suggest to any musician to point ther amps up or at ear level instead of sitting them straight into the audiences' heads. One just might be surprised. Let the PA do the work. Feedback threshold my arse. Marshalls can be used as sonic weapons.

[scarecrowbob]

Well Mark, actually workers can be exposed to those sound levels. For about 30 minutes in 24 hours, if my math is right.

This is kind of interesting (especially the table on exposure periods):

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=9735

So for the typical show (say, three hours) you need to have it under 97dB A slow in order to keep workers safe.

Of course, as you point out, folks don't do this in practice for entertainment venues.

Given the general hatred and disdain for government regulations around here, is it better to start complaining in the hopes that it will make our workplaces more livable, or is it better that there is one more place where the government keeps out of regulating something?

[TrickyBoy]

Feedback threshold my arse.

What the hell is a "Feedback Threshold????" I guess I'm a weird guitarist, but I play through a Blues Deluxe (40W 1x12 combo amp) - my gain is always set on 4 and the master never exceeds 2. I use a pedal board for all my distortion, etc. I'm probably going to downsize to a 15W amp when I get the funds together.

I can effortlessly get feedback anytime I want. Hold a note or chord, turn to the amp, and SHAZAM! - feedback (if I want that kind). Or just release the neck of the guitar. It's all about dialing in your sound to achieve the effect you're looking for.

Or I guess you could just suck and turn up. :poke:

[Dogoth]

Well Mark, actually workers can be exposed to those sound levels. For about 30 minutes in 24 hours, if my math is right. This is kind of interesting (especially the table on exposure periods): http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=9735 So for the typical show (say, three hours) you need to have it under 97dB A slow in order to keep workers safe. Of course, as you point out, folks don't do this in practice for entertainment venues. Given the general hatred and disdain for government regulations around here, is it better to start complaining in the hopes that it will make our workplaces more livable, or is it better that there is one more place where the government keeps out of regulating something?

 

 

Having worked in a Casino that OSHA was keeping an eye on, I became pretty familiar with those specs. The interesting thing is that's an average SPL which is hard to calculate with out the proper computer that takes regular peak samples and averages it out over some given time period. This time period can include breaks, between song times and........... OSHA did monitor the casino floor for a while (where there was a cabaret stage) and gave us guidlines. They never levied any fines that I know of.

 

Their guidlines were that it should be kept under 98db peaks A weighted (this was on axis with the speakers at about the nearest your ears could get to them (which was the mixing console position)about 3 meters))). I'd guess this was based on the fact that two bands played for 4X45 min shifts each but spanned two worker shifts. Our managment (wanting to be conservative and NOT wanting problems with the feds) asked for 97 db peaks C weighted. Mostly we adheared to these rules but in the end an occasional peak of over 100 or 102 was tolerated (if the band & mix was good ;>).

[W. M. Hellinger]

Given the general hatred and disdain for government regulations around here, is it better to start complaining in the hopes that it will make our workplaces more livable, or is it better that there is one more place where the government keeps out of regulating something?

 

That's my whole point.

 

Actually, it seems to me that disdain for govt. regulation is generally reserved for those regulations which get in the way of somebody doing what they want to do. Me personally, I couldn't have given a rip about the Federally imposed highway speed of 55mph imposed back during the gas-crunch of the '70's... since I rarely if ever had the opportunity to drive on interstates (or most any other highway) back then... until about '82, when I drove back to Twin Galaxies in Ottumwa, Iowa... then it struck me that the 55 mph Federal mandated speed limit sucked and just ain't fair... while grinding 700 miles across Montana and then 700 miles back across Montana on interstate.

 

That, and: The screwballs who just let it rip without the least bit of sensibility are going to screw it up for all of us. Right-now, noise in the workplace is generally flying under the radar when it comes to performance venues... but enough will be enough sooner or later if we don't show some semblance of self restraint.

[Coaster]

what disdain for government regulation? it seems to me that nearly everyone wants your (read: not coasters) savior to fix every aspect of our lives. oh please take care of me government, i's too stoopid to takes care of myself.

 

hell, draw any question towards the government and i am a terrorist. or a prol; since i am not of "the party"

 

if you want mr O to foot the bills than he will likely have some say in how much you can do of anything

[RoadRanger]

Sad truth is most people are too stoopid to take care of themselves. I'm all for letting those die off a la Darwin but the government seems intent on not only saving them from themselves but also encouraging them to out-breed the +90 IQ folks . Anybody here really think that movie "Idiocracy" wasn't plausible ?

[imnotded]

. Anybody here really think that movie "Idiocracy" wasn't plausible ?

I dont think it would get that bad, but is has some plausibility imo. But as for people being too stupid to take care of themselves, I would argue that the government has made people that way. How did we get on this topic?

[W. M. Hellinger]

what disdain for government regulation? it seems to me that nearly everyone wants your (read: not coasters) savior to fix every aspect of our lives. oh please take care of me government, i's too stoopid to takes care of myself. hell, draw any question towards the government and i am a terrorist. or a prol; since i am not of "the party" if you want mr O to foot the bills than he will likely have some say in how much you can do of anything

 

I dunno about some of that... actually I do, and you and I might have some similar political viewpoint... but I'd prefer to keep this discussion from being blatently political. However, I don't see anything wrong with talking about the human animal... and regardless of whether or not there

[Coaster]

hearing protection is one thing we all can take care of ourselves. i always have those foamy things in my pocket so if i am somewhere that i may need them i can just pop them in. not the best, but it works. in my shop i wear shooting muffs (-29db) for using power tools (damn those routers are LOUD).

its MY resposibility, not the FED's. member when the fed worked for us and not the other way around?

[W. M. Hellinger]

its MY resposibility, not the FED's. member when the fed worked for us and not the other way around?

Well sure, and beyond that: You have the choice to go or not go into the joint where that loud-assed band's playing... it's called: "Let the market decide." But there's all those out there who demand they have the right to go anywhere that's publicly accessible and be protected... regardless of whether they go there or not.

There's those humans out there who just plain don't like others, or others actions, or other's lifestyle... and "we're just trying to do what's best for all" (and who can argue with that? Especially if we're all forced to pay for any negitive consiquences of personal choices ) presents all the opportunity needed to extend their agenda.

Where this is gonna go is not that the 117dB RMS bands at the mix position will be reeled into some reasonable 100... maybe 110dB peaks... no... EVERYONE will be limited to 85dB with maybe 90dB peaks, and we'll need a license to operate, and million dollar liability insurance, and a tattletale system. And then somebody will propose that some sorts of sounds are more damaging than others (which they would be correct about that), so censorship of genres will be the answer to that problem.

[WynnD]

How hard is it for soundguys to realize that some type of music needs to be loud?

 

 

I will argue to the end of my days that R&R can be played very profitably at volumes that allow the Sax player to not need a mic and the band to hear the audience while they're playing. It does take an exceptional band. The end result is FOH speakers in the backline, no monitors, faster setup and teardown, and generally a crowd that grows through out the evening. Finishing that last set with a full house is a sure way to be invited back. Had a band just like that and we were playing 5 nights a week steady in three clubs. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.