Members wheresgrant3 Posted September 22, 2010 Members Share Posted September 22, 2010 So yesterday we played an afternoon event for a college and as we were setting up we notice that one of our Yorkville EF500P speakers is punctured. The sunlight was at the right angle an we could see an 1/2 inch hole in the left corner 1-2 inches from the rim of the speaker. It's not just a puncture, but cracks were also visible as well. At the time we didn't notice anything in the mix (no distortion or buzz). We have a pretty heavy gig schedule and there aren't alot of options for rentals around here. #1- how hard would it be to replace that speaker...? #2- what would cause it to rip in numerous places? We're chalking this up to speaker fatigue... 5 years and over 300 performances. They are kept in hard cases and other than a blown HF driver we've never had a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members imnotded Posted September 22, 2010 Members Share Posted September 22, 2010 #1 - Replacing drivers is easy (at least the ones I have replaced). You just unscrew it and disconnect the leads. Do the reverse for installing the new one. Re-coning is another matter, have a pro do that. #2 - No idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bobby1Note Posted September 22, 2010 Members Share Posted September 22, 2010 Grant, Give Yorkville a call. They're really good about getting back to you quickly, and they have terrific product support. Let us know how you make out. http://www.yorkville.com/default.asp?p1=2&p2=0&p_id=65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted September 22, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted September 22, 2010 #2: Too much power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted September 22, 2010 Members Share Posted September 22, 2010 #2: Too much power. I believe the speaker is a powered cab. My guess not enough rig for the gig. Remember that next time you try and cover a 1000 people with your PA. http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2512383 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dookietwo Posted September 22, 2010 Members Share Posted September 22, 2010 Please know that they are quite expensive to replace. Although it looks like a peavey field replaceable basket there is no baskets available and you have to replace the whole speaker. There is a guy in Canada who recones for a fair price. I believe around $120 or so. I could call a local dj who had one done for him and see for sure if you can't find a whole speaker for a good price. Used in the rain or stored in a damp/cold environment could have cause your paper cones to fail. If taken from a 20 below storage/trailer and used before they had a chance to warm up may have made them damp. Let us know what you find for a price. Thanks Dookietwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 I don't know how much it will cost. I blew out the horns in my U15's this summer, and the new horns + circuitry/whatever cost about $170 each. Not too bad. I've had then since 2003, and it was an outdoor festival. Simply ran too hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted September 23, 2010 Author Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 I believe the speaker is a powered cab. My guess not enough rig for the gig. Remember that next time you try and cover a 1000 people with your PA. http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=2512383 So that rip and tear was a result of the gig we played 11 1/2 months ago. Nothing to do with the 75 gigs in between. If you read through that thread you would have seen where I mentioned we were at or just above unity, with plenty of headroom on the board. I'm not going to deny we don't push this system... it's a tool we use to make money... but we've only played a gig that size once, it wasn't our plan to use our PA for a gig that size (it was the situation which guided that decision) and it was one year ago next month... which has little to do with THIS month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 Probably too much boomy bass drum. :poke: Look into a new one. Depending on price, it might be worth having a spare, because then it will NEVER happen again!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted September 23, 2010 Author Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 Please know that they are quite expensive to replace. Although it looks like a peavey field replaceable basket there is no baskets available and you have to replace the whole speaker. There is a guy in Canada who recones for a fair price. I believe around $120 or so. I could call a local dj who had one done for him and see for sure if you can't find a whole speaker for a good price. Used in the rain or stored in a damp/cold environment could have cause your paper cones to fail. If taken from a 20 below storage/trailer and used before they had a chance to warm up may have made them damp. Let us know what you find for a price.Thanks Dookietwo I'm think fatigue and environment is probably the main factor. We live in the Northeast so it does get extremely frigid and there are big temp swings bringing gear from outside to the inside. We always allow the cabs to warm a bit (at least an hour) before we start running power. Still I love these cabs and speaker failure after so many gigs, and gig environment is understandable. I'll likely get the pair done together, there's a great shop about an hour away that could turn these around in a week. I'm guessing total damage will be $350-$450 though. We were looking at buying a second pair for sidefills anyway... so this will be the reason to go forward with that plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 If you have followed any of my discussions on overpowering or driving the speakers beyond their elastic linear limits, you will find that the materials fatigue and the damage will continue to occur ant lower and lower power levels until the materials eventually fail. Powered speakers can be made to fail also, it just takes more effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 So that rip and tear was a result of the gig we played 11 1/2 months ago. Nothing to do with the 75 gigs in between. If you read through that thread you would have seen where I mentioned we were at or just above unity, with plenty of headroom on the board. I'm not going to deny we don't push this system... it's a tool we use to make money... but we've only played a gig that size once, it wasn't our plan to use our PA for a gig that size (it was the situation which guided that decision) and it was one year ago next month... which has little to do with THIS month. Well whatever, It probably started to tear then and has gotten worse. I run twice as much rig as you do and start running out of gas at 4-500 people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted September 23, 2010 Author Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 Well whatever, It probably started to tear then and has gotten worse. I run twice as much rig as you do and start running out of gas at 4-500 people. I can certainly agree with that... however regardless of the space you're filling and the number of people you are playing too,what's considered 'overpowering a powered speaker with a built in limiter and when your master volume on your mixer is around unity? I'm not asking to be a smart ass. I just don't want to repeat this again for another 5 years. I most definately believe that we've overpowered these... I won't deny that. I also believe that for a materials failure in the speaker cone, given the number of performances, the harsh elements, and plain ole frequency of use... I'm still pretty satisfied with this set.. satisfied enough to buy a 2nd pair to spread the load. I've always felt the ratio of matching the tops to the output the subs deliver should really be 2 to 1 on these speakers. Question: Would we be shooting ourselves in the foot if we went with a cheaper pair of tops to compliment the sound reinforcement (QSC K12's)... or should we double down and just spring the extra $2K and get a matching pair of EF500P's. The concern is weight. 2 pairs of EF500P's and one pair of LS800P subs weigh in at over 650lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SomeoneYouKnew Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 I'm think fatigue and environment is probably the main factor. I believe you're right. If you've ever seen high speed strobe photograpy of what happens on a cone, it's some pretty brutal shiz. We imagine the cone as being stiff and the suspension compliant. So we expect all the flexing happens at the suspension. But it doesn't work that way in real life. Pump a square wave into LF driver and the hub tends to move out at a much faster rate than the rest of the cone. There can be an enormous flex. Same on the return. The damage isn't immediate. It's cumulative. Cold itself might not be as much an enemy as bringing a cold system into a warm (humid) environment. Condensation on the cone isn't gonna do it any favours, especially if the cone is paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 5 years and 300 shows doesn't sound like that much to me. I'm still using some side fill speakers that are nearly 20 years old and have well into the thousands of shows on them (although they've been installed, used conservative, and yes have had a few drivers rebuilt over the years). Admittedly they are a bit tired :-) Environment might well be a consideration but probably you just need more PA to do the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RANUI Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 5 years and 300 shows doesn't sound like that much to me. I'm still using some side fill speakers that are nearly 20 years old and have well into the thousands of shows on them (although they've been installed, used conservative, and yes have had a few drivers rebuilt over the years). Admittedly they are a bit tired :-) Yea, got an axe that belonged to my father, its about 60 yrs old, had a couple of new heads and I think 3 new handles, good as new still ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mkfs9 Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 How do you have a hole in the corner. A driver is round. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 I can certainly agree with that... however regardless of the space you're filling and the number of people you are playing too,what's considered 'overpowering a powered speaker with a built in limiter and when your master volume on your mixer is around unity? I'm not asking to be a smart ass. I just don't want to repeat this again for another 5 years. I most definately believe that we've overpowered these... I won't deny that. I also believe that for a materials failure in the speaker cone, given the number of performances, the harsh elements, and plain ole frequency of use... I'm still pretty satisfied with this set.. satisfied enough to buy a 2nd pair to spread the load. I've always felt the ratio of matching the tops to the output the subs deliver should really be 2 to 1 on these speakers. Question: Would we be shooting ourselves in the foot if we went with a cheaper pair of tops to compliment the sound reinforcement (QSC K12's)... or should we double down and just spring the extra $2K and get a matching pair of EF500P's. The concern is weight. 2 pairs of EF500P's and one pair of LS800P subs weigh in at over 650lbs. I don't have any experience with Yorkville gear since nobody sells/uses it in my area. If it was me I would trade in or sell your cabs and buy something lighter. It might also be a good idea to get 4 tops and use only 2 on smaller gigs. I would be concerned that if one of your cabs is starting to fail maybe the others are not far behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 How do you have a hole in the corner. A driver is round. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rezrover Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 How do you have a hole in the corner. A driver is round. LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 I can understand the thought behind square subs for cars but that triangular one is just weird ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 23, 2010 Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 A triangular object is inherently stable. Hence the use of the tripod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted September 23, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted September 23, 2010 I believe the speaker is a powered cab. "Too much power" still applies. If you're pounding the cabinet with LF, the cone and suspension will fail sooner than expected, even with a well-matched amp. But I'd like to see a clear picture of the cone to see what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted September 23, 2010 Author Members Share Posted September 23, 2010 I'll snap a pic. Will take a day or two. Might be hard to see with the grill still on. Essentially it's an uneven (non symetrical) tear in the cone in the lower 1/4 of the grill (if you think of a pie cut in four pieces). It's not like a tear from a knife or sharp object. It looks more like someone chucked a small stone through the paper cone. Except an object of that size would never fit through the grille. We only noticed it because the way the sunlight was hitting the cone. On closer inspection we could see other cracks, rips and tears forming on the lower half. We'll probably get both speakers inspected and replaced. In the meantime we're looking at buying another matching pair... though the concern again is weight. The likely hood of us selling these to make it worth while to replace them with 2 pairs of newer speakers from say QSC wouldn't be economical for us. We would sell these for maybe... $1200 or a $1000 for the pair and need to invest another $3600-4000 for 2 pairs of tops. So we'll probably recone these and buy a second pair. Question... what would be the downside in buying a pair of QSC K12's to use as a center fill, and put less strain on these. The advantage wouldn't be price but weight. 1 pair of K12's are less than a single EF500P. We've suffered a massive drop off instage sound anyway since the band went to all IEM's (there's no bleed from stage monitors.) There's only one or two indoor venues where we would need to use all four speakers... but outdoor gigs this would help tremendously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted September 23, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted September 23, 2010 A triangular object is inherently stable. Hence the use of the tripod. Yeah but... The cone is supported all the way around, not just at the three corners. The triangular cone probably isn't as rigid as a round cone would be, which would put it at a disadvantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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