Aux fed subs

[agedhorse]

 

So there is an easy way to understand just what going to aux subs can do your your system. Next gig just make a recording from the sub send of your crossover and listen back to all the stuff that ends up in your subs. The main benefit of aux subs is the reduction to almost zero of anything from a vocal mic reaching the subs. http://peavey.com/support/technotes/concepts/AUX_SUBs.pdf

 

 

This is almost meaningless IMO.

 

Sure you will be able to hear some bleed when listening to the sub only channel but with HPF's on the offending channels, it's going to be many dB down in comparison to the tops and totally masked. In fact, the only reason it will be audible is because of the ear's increased sensitivity as the frequency rises but this parallels what happens in the top box as well.

 

The only place where aux fed subs really make a significant difference IME is where the system response is by design very bass heavy... ie. the sub band has maybe 15dB of ADDITIONAL gain beyond flat, in which case the bleed in the subs is 15dB higher than in a more conventional system tuning. In this case, it's no longer insignificant.

 

Since most of the shows I do these days use a system balance where the subs may be 3dB above nominally flat, there is no significant benefit for most of my appliocations. This may also be part of the reason why the acts I typically do have no real preference for aux fed subs and why some acts do not want them.

 

Let's get some relality assigned to the details. Everything is relative to some baseline, once you know the baseline and WHY it may or may not be significant, then you can have a good idea of what the likely outcome will be.

[6Imzadi]

To the OP:

 

Read all you want about what is posted here. Good information, btw. But, to determine if it will be right for you, you MUST try it for yourself.

 

Nobody can hear you mix on an internet forum.

[abzurd]

To the OP: Read all you want about what is posted here. Good information, btw. But, to determine if it will be right for you, you MUST try it for yourself. Nobody can hear you mix on an internet forum.

 

[badhabit]

 

To the OP: Read all you want about what is posted here. Good information, btw. But, to determine if it will be right for you, you MUST try it for yourself. Nobody can hear you mix on an internet forum.

 

 

That I will. I plan to at our next gig. Even better, perhaps I'll just set up the gear beforehand to ensure that I hook everything up correctly and that it will work. Thanks again for all the great input from all the posters on this matter.

[TimmyP]

Even with (fixed 80 or 100 Hz) high pass filters on everything except bass, kick, and toms, I found that my system sounded better with aux fed subs - even on a comparatively quiet rock gig (my DR480 allowed for fast A-Bs).

[agedhorse]

 

Even with (fixed 80 or 100 Hz) high pass filters on everything except bass, kick, and toms, I found that my system sounded better with aux fed subs - even on a comparatively quiet rock gig (my DR480 allowed for fast A-Bs).

 

 

Tim... how many shows a month do you do and what kind of shows where this kind of stuff would be important or even remotely significant? Your website calander and Rick's Center schedule shows a couple shows a month and nothing much like a rock show or anything where this would seem to make sense. The shows are like free or donation accepted, or talent shows. Where do you get all the experience with this kind of stuff?

 

I have a hard time believing you have the experience you say you do, and so often your comments just don't seem to make sense in the context of the real world.

[dboomer]

 

This is almost meaningless IMO ... Since most of the shows I do these days use a system balance where the subs may be 3dB above nominally flat

 

 

It may be meaningless in YOUR system. But I would say that your system is atypical compared to most readers of this forum. I have spent a good deal of time measuring other peoples systems and I would say (for better or for worse) that modern rock systems have more like 10-15 dB of sub boost compared to mid-band. If you look back at these threads I think you'll find that you are in a minority of about 50 to 1 of people that have tried and prefer aux fed sub systems ... and that's fine. Everyone should set up their system however it makes them happy.

 

I still stand by my test. It's simple and each user can decide for himself. The "gack" may be down compared to mid band ... but it may not be down compared to other intentional channels like kick, bass, etc and that's the real test you can easily hear for yourself.

 

Another thing to consider is that is is common for high pass filters on mixers to not be very high order and also to not be adjustable to corner frequency. A 6 or 12 dB/ oct filter at 80 Hz doesn't buy you anything if your subs are boosted compared to mid-band.

 

However you chose to operate with it ... it clearly gives you more control over the system and never less control.

[abzurd]

I agree with Don here.

 

Agedhorse, IMO, you're kind of coming off as a bully in this thread. While I've always appreciated your wisdom, and we get that you don't care much for aux feeding, people aren't wrong for doing it either. Publicly insulting Tim, IMO is taking it too far. All he said is he's A/B'd the aux and non-aux sub method and I certainly don't see what the cost of admission to one of his shows has to do with the subject.

[Redbassman86]

I've done it both ways. I think for me it depends on what kind of show I'm mixing. Bar gigs, small outdoor stuff, 5-1000 persons I really see no benefit for me. On a 50kw system with 6 dual 18's per side though...... I'm a fan of anything I can do to keep the low end information to a dull roar. Sometimes that may be aux fed subs, sometimes it may not be.

 

Salt and Pepper to taste.

 

And also I really think that, as I always stress, we should keep personal attacks and uncivil slaps to a minimum. We are all here to discuss things as civil humans, I hate to see this escalate......

[agedhorse]

Before jumping all over me Absurd, I very clearly outlined when aux fed subs might offer a clear advantage and when they do not. You say I'm in the 50:1 minority yet in all my touring I have yet to see 98% of the systems I have used set up with aux fed subs. In fact, MAYBE 10% might be a more accurate number and even that may be high.

 

MODERN rock is a small subset of what constitutes music or PA applications and I suspect that your suggestion that 50:1 (98%) of the folks here are not mixing MODERN rock. In fact, I'll bet that less than 1/2 do it regularly and I'll even more boldly suggest that the many folks here are doing praise and worshop, acoustic, jazz, blues, and just about everything but modern rock.

 

I have backed my opinions and comments with some pretty detailed technical reasons why it's not all that common and even desireable for the majority of systems and applications but I did qualify that for some applications there is indeed a clear benefit, and exactly when/why. To repeat... for applications where the sub band gain is significantly above flat response (certainly 10-15dB of sub band boost is significant to say the least) this brings the bleed up by 10-15dB which would offset the use of the channel HPF's globally.

 

Regarding my questions to Tim, he repeatadly comes here offering his experienecs about advanced topics and methods he uses on the shows he does, often conflicting with common sense and my experiences (and others) in the real world, and sometimes times are completely inaccurate. I have visited his website several times over the past year and the shows indicated there do not match or corrolate with what he says he does and certainly the types of shows are different than he implies. Perhaps his comments about advanced techniques should be taken in the context of the shows he actually does which would explain why his experiences do not match what some of the more experienced of us see. What he posts on his website does not match what he claims here. Maybe the take home message here is not to post things on your website that conflict with what you post in forums? Maybe there is a clarification that Tim can offer that would help us understand where he is coming from?

[agedhorse]

Craig, if my comments seem unreasonable, please delete them.

[Shaster]

My basic complaint with aux feeding is that the amount of fussing and extra gear needed has never generated resuts I felt were warranted. But I should say that I don't mix metal bands or bottom heavy music or big concerts where aux feeding could come in handy.

 

Anyway for anyone wanting to try aux feeding it needs repeating that you need two of everything in your mixer to amp path (unless you're running mono or can configure your Driverack/digital board). And they need to be the same make and model of components. Especially as agedhorse said, the crossover.

 

So... mixer Left and Right/EQ/Crossover to tops, and mixer Aux/EQ/Crossover to subs. Then you need to set your aux levels to your top level (described in this thread I believe) and not mess iwth it, or you'll be inadvertantly changing the xover point. Of course AFAIK they change anyway as overall system volume changes, but why compound things.

 

Lots of room for error, so folks unfamiliar with this method should use due diligence.

 

My suggestion from a week-end warrior perspective (that's me) is to try it out at "home" first.

[Chris K]

I love these Aux Fed Sub threads. Every time I read one I learn something new.

 

Regarding the L/R Master Aux Sub method (highs panned hard left, sub content center panned)...if the mixer only has one fader for the L/R stereo outs will this method work? Or should it be avoided and use an actual aux send? Mixer in question is original Yamaha 01V.

[abzurd]

 

I love these Aux Fed Sub threads. Every time I read one I learn something new. Regarding the L/R Master Aux Sub method (highs panned hard left, sub content center panned)...if the mixer only has one fader for the L/R stereo outs will this method work? Or should it be avoided and use an actual aux send? Mixer in question is original Yamaha 01V.

 

 

It still works, you just don't have an overall control of the level. You still can vary the amount of signal going to the sub by hard panning the non sub instruments and moving toward center for the "sub" instruments. If you have to go past center you probably have your gain structure wrong. At center you have "full signal" of both the subs and mains. As you start going toward the "sub side" past center you are actually diminishing your mains signal.

[Shaster]

 

I love these Aux Fed Sub threads. Every time I read one I learn something new. Regarding the L/R Master Aux Sub method (highs panned hard left, sub content center panned)...if the mixer only has one fader for the L/R stereo outs will this method work? Or should it be avoided and use an actual aux send? Mixer in question is original Yamaha 01V.

 

 

Not an O1V user but.... Who knows, it might even be better. Makes it harder to change the relationship of tops to subs by "just giving it a bit more" on the main fader. The temptation to do this can be hard to resist - speaking for myself anyway.

[abzurd]

Because it's a specific thing I have to do now, I pay more attention to the bottom end then I ever did pre-aux sub. The two revelations I've had is:

 

1 - The amount of low end I want is secondary to the amount the room will tolerate. I know this can be determined with EQ alone, but it's much more dramatic when you can call up the bass guitar channel and start with nothing then bring up the sub. The room will let you know when you've gone too far. I'm not saying you should leave it at "just short of too far" as that may not be where it sounds best, but it is interesting to hear the dramatic differences in just a little movement in the sub control.

 

2 - I've learned that there isn't nearly as much sub material in the bass guitar as I thought. I realize this depends on the bass (both the wood and the pickups) as well as any EQ or processing being used and the overall tone you're looking for, but in our case I've found it's very easy to mask the attack and tone of the bass with too much low end. In general too much low end masks the higher material. It's very easy to hear this when you have a "low end volume knob" at your disposal. Turn it up and the character and detail melts as it's trumped by those long loud waves hitting your ears.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I agree with Don here. Agedhorse, IMO, you're kind of coming off as a bully in this thread. While I've always appreciated your wisdom, and we get that you don't care much for aux feeding, people aren't wrong for doing it either. Publicly insulting Tim, IMO is taking it too far. All he said is he's A/B'd the aux and non-aux sub method and I certainly don't see what the cost of admission to one of his shows has to do with the subject.

 

 

I'm quoting this post only as a jumping-off point about the conflict at this point in the thread.

 

I for one agree that what I've seen from TimmyP is too often questionable, and he almost never responds to any posts that disagree, to address it. Perhaps it's this hit-and-run trolling style that causes some people to be put off by his posts. I had to repeatedly delete links he posted here to his "poor man's distro" which wouldn't pass any inspection and wasn't a distro. Having to repeat myself so many times got old.

 

I don't think that passionately defending your opinions makes you or Andy a bully.

 

There have been no personal attacks here, and there won't be any. Right, gentlemen?

 

If there's anything more to discuss about aux subs, let's get to it.

[The Chinese]

I've done it both ways, and in one of the harshest environments around (burning Man).

 

There are pluses to both methods. However, I'd have to come down on the side of NOT using them.

 

A) To Don's point about what gets sent. Unless you listen to that feed post crossover, with a 24Db/octave filter on it, then that's not a terribly valid test- what gets to the sub is post-filter.

 

B) Anytime there are multiple acts, it can turn into a disaster very fast.

 

C) Your Break music will require real input channels w/ Auxes

 

D) HPF, set to where your crossover is, achieves the same results.

 

Todd A.

[Rezrover]

I guess my question is, do you need a full range set-up (subs & tops) PLUS (+) another set of subs to get the actual benefits of this method?

[flanc]

I was really considering it when I had the Mixwiz, but the variable HPF's on the Studio live really seem to cut the garbage out of the subs. I'm sure not in total, but significantly. I set the HPF's on the vocals and the guitars above the crossover point to really work to get rid of low-end rumble.

[Shaster]

 

I guess my question is, do you need a full range set-up (subs & tops) PLUS (+) another set of subs to get the actual benefits of this method?

 

 

No. Your tops function and cross over as normal. In a separate signal path you take your aux send, with whatever you've assigned to it - bass, kick, floor tom..., and run it into a separate (or one side if running mono) EQ and crossover. Totally separate path but same subs.

 

So one crossover.... uses just the top out and the other crossover... uses just the sub/bottom out. they should be the same crossover (per agedhorse et al.) for sonic reasons - filters....

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I guess my question is, do you need a full range set-up (subs & tops) PLUS (+) another set of subs to get the actual benefits of this method?

 

 

No.

 

You need a crossover. If you have a stereo mix, you need two crossovers.

 

For a channel that will have LF that you want to send to the subs, use a post-fader aux to send signal to one crossover input. Set it for LPF at the normal crossing point (for this discussion, let's say it'll pass what's under 100Hz. Send that crossover's output to your sub amp and speaker.

 

Do this for every channel that has LF. Bass guitar, keys, floor toms, that singer who sounds like the guy from Oakridge Boys, etc.

 

For channels that don't have LF, don't use that aux.

 

Now your normal mains output goes to the other crossover, use both channels if it's a stereo mixer/mix. Set the crossing point to HPF at 100hz or whatever crossing point you use, and take the HF and if used, MF outputs to your midhighs.

 

As you may notice, the midhigh isn't treated any differently. But the LF amp/speaker is only receiving signal from channels that actually have LF sources. If there is any stage rumble in a vocal mic, it doesn't get to the subs because that channel has no send to the subs at all.

[Unalaska]

I've done the aux fed thing with an 01V, basically sub left and mid/high right. Just use the pan knob and don't worry about the main fader. You can pan the master fader too (select main out, adjust pan), but really because I've done this both ways I don't really hear the benefit. If it works for you guys then great, and it's worth it to try out anyway. FWIW I tend to run the subs 4-6dB hotter than tops.

[dboomer]

 

B) Anytime there are multiple acts, it can turn into a disaster very fast. D) HPF, set to where your crossover is, achieves the same results.

 

 

Hey Todd

 

Turning into a disaster is related to maintaining control of your system ... not to a failure of the method.

 

I strongly disagree with your point about HPF. This would be closer to a true statement is a system were truly flat. But Rock(ish) systems are so commonly set with so much bass drive boost and that fact essentially nullifies your HPF in the examples I'm talking about.

 

So someone tell me how having more control over things is less desirable than having less control. With an Aux fed system in place you can still run things in an almost identical way but you have the advantage of grabbing additional control over the fog of tubby low gack.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Hey Todd Turning into a disaster is related to maintaining control of your system ... not to a failure of the method. I strongly disagree with your point about HPF. This would be closer to a true statement is a system were truly flat. But Rock(ish) systems are so commonly set with so much bass drive boost and that fact essentially nullifies your HPF in the examples I'm talking about. So someone tell me how having more control over things is less desirable than having less control. With an Aux fed system in place you can still run things in an almost identical way but you have the advantage of grabbing additional control over the fog of tubby low gack.

 

 

What if you're fixing a problem that doesn't exist? Maybe your system is close enough to flat, and you aren't boosting the {censored} out of the LF, and you're on a solid quiet stage.

 

Nobody here said that it always sucks totally. It's just not always the right technique to use for every situation.

 

I think there's room in this world for everyone....:-)