Dual PA application

[Tomm Williams]

Read an article from Dave Ratt talking about the benefits of a dual system splitting vocals from everything else. How common is this? At what performance level does this become a benefit? Is it better indoors or out or is that irrelevant?. I can see where it wouldn't be that hard to do with an aux like another vocal monitor. Just wondering where is the best application for such a set up.

[Rezrover]

I asked this question here: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2611274-Just-Thinking-This-Through-Aux-Fed-Mains&highlight=

[Tomm Williams]

Thanks for that lead. I read enough to come to two conclusions: 1--It's a cool concept that I'll be reading up on. 2--There's no way in hell I need to worry about doing it.

[agedhorse]

ugh, just because you can do something different doesn't make it cool.

[The Chinese]

 

ugh, just because you can do something different doesn't make it cool.

 

 

Amen. If you need more rig for the gig, follow KISS, and just run the band down in level. Voila! HeadRoom!!!!!

[Mogwix]

It works when you have the budget, such as the bands that Dave Rat mixes... Soundgarden, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Pearl Jam. There's other bands touring with a dual-hung PA; Rush and U2 both tour with dual Claire Bros arrays, mixing with the same concept.

 

For me, it's the same as aux subs. The concept makes sense, but in practice it's easier for me to turn down the LF knob than it is to set up an entire aux mix just for the subwoofers.

[agedhorse]

Sometimes things are done to make a point, or because it make them different. It's not always "better". Let's see if it continues 5 years from now.

[Tomm Williams]

OK, apparently using the term "Cool" was a little much for some. I found the whole technique an interesting alternative.

[agedhorse]

It's interesting, but in practice it has such limited application ESPECIALLY at the level anybody here would ever hop to achieve, that it's purely academic IMO.

[Tomm Williams]

And quite honestly a good number of my questions fall under the category of "Just Wondering".

[Shaster]

Back in the eighties I saw Steve Lukather at the Baked Potato in LA. He had a "silly" rack of gear, and when I got home I promptly filled up my guitar racks so that I was eventually running 12 rack spaces of gear - for a top forty band.

 

That phase only lasted so long. Sometimes the "big boys" do things because they can, and because it creates a buzz and supposedly keeps them cutting edge. IMHO the two PA thing is kind of like that.

 

Perhaps the only time I've ever used a similar idea is when I was faced with a lousy front end, with one sub. I would aux feed the sub with kick and bass and tell the drummer and bass player they were on their own for the top end - basically I would barely have them in the main tops, and wouldn't have the vocals in the subs - does that qualify as a DR system

[agedhorse]

 

That phase only lasted so long. Sometimes the "big boys" do things because they can, and because it creates a buzz and supposedly keeps them cutting edge. IMHO the two PA thing is kind of like that.

 

 

IMO, this is a really good explaination of how "fads" become so popular.

[Coaster]

 

Sometimes things are done to make a point, or because it make them different. It's not always "better". Let's see if it continues 5 years from now.

 

 

maybe bessel arrays will be all the rage in 5 years.

 

hell, it could happen.

[dedmeet]

 

That phase only lasted so long. Sometimes the "big boys" do things because they can, and because it creates a buzz and supposedly keeps them cutting edge. IMHO the two PA thing is kind of like that.

 

 

I agree. I suspect this is why so many people keep trying to use line arrays for every venue even though it is not a go-anywhere do-everything concept. This is especially true when many times a much smaller trap system is much more suitable.

[Mogwix]

 

I agree. I suspect this is why so many people keep trying to use line arrays for every venue even though it is not a go-anywhere do-everything concept.

 

I had a short chat with a graduate from a local college's "live production" program. We were talking about the work we were doing (both of us touring with small time rock bands) and he kept talking about line arrays and how he dreams of mixing on one... when I used the term "point source array" he tilted his head and said "is that something new?"

[IsildursBane]

 

Rush and U2 both tour with dual Claire Bros arrays, mixing with the same concept.

 

 

I saw U2 on their 360 tour and thought they actually needed more PA. I could hear the system clipping at points and it wasn't all that loud (for an open-air football stadium).

 

-Dan.

[Telecruiser]

Sometimes things are done to make a point, or because it make them different. It's not always "better". Let's see if it continues 5 years from now.

 

I remember when concert systems did not have stand alone subs. There was probably talk going around that this may be a passing fad. Far as I know it is still going strong. The test is time. Like you said if it is still in vogue or increases in use and popularity 5 years from now then there might be something to it.

[agedhorse]

I remember when concert systems did not have stand alone subs. There was probably talk going around that this may be a passing fad. Far as I know it is still going strong. The test is time. Like you said if it is still in vogue or increases in use and popularity 5 years from now then there might be something to it.

 

A little bit more history is needed here... there were full range (down to 35Hz) speaker systems available for live audio but the defining factor was sensitivity all the way because amp power was very expensive compared with speaker cost. Look at some of the old Altev A2's or 4's, large cabinets fairly flat down into the low 40's or even high 30's (depending on baffle extensions) but they were very, very large and heavy.

 

The real driving factor in seperate subs was to seperate the boxes so that the >100Hz components were smaller and easier to stack, transport, and ultimately package as an integrated low/high unit. The ability to add or subtract sub units based on the event and the ability to stach them "out of the way" was also helpful. Early subs were no more sub cabinets that the low end response of an A2 or A4 (except that they were usually folded to get a larger horn since low mid response was unimportant) but ultimately bass reflex became more viable as amp power [cost] decreased dramaticly.

 

This is pretty much how the evolution of subs progresses, due to a clear need for more and more extended low end as well as changes in the technology that could make this possible. It wasn't that the sound guys of the day didn't want more low extension, it was cost and space prohibitive except for the most "rich" of tours. It never was a fad, not was it ever presented as "cool beans" exclusivity stuff.

[Telecruiser]

 

A little bit more history is needed here... there were full range (down to 35Hz) speaker systems available for live audio but the defining factor was sensitivity all the way because amp power was very expensive compared with speaker cost. Look at some of the old Altev A2's or 4's, large cabinets fairly flat down into the low 40's or even high 30's (depending on baffle extensions) but they were very, very large and heavy. The real driving factor in seperate subs was to seperate the boxes so that the >100Hz components were smaller and easier to stack, transport, and ultimately package as an integrated low/high unit. The ability to add or subtract sub units based on the event and the ability to stach them "out of the way" was also helpful. Early subs were no more sub cabinets that the low end response of an A2 or A4 (except that they were usually folded to get a larger horn since low mid response was unimportant) but ultimately bass reflex became more viable as amp power decreased dramaticly. This is pretty much how the evolution of subs progresses, due to a clear need for more and more extended low end as well as changes in the technology that could make this possible. It wasn't that the sound guys of the day didn't want more low extension, it was cost and space prohibitive except for the most "rich" of tours. It never was a fad, not was it ever presented as "cool beans" exclusivity stuff.

 

 

Thanks:thu: