Next Girl?

[Ashman21]

Narrowed it down to 3 for my next Guitar, martin D16rgt, Gibson J-15 or a used martin D-18 I'm looking for Big tone, have seen reviews for all 3 problem is the reviews seem to accent the positives and never even glance the negatives, If I had the resources It would be a D-42 or 45 Or a J-45 custom but my Budget will only swallow approx., $2,000. for my Christmas present to myself so I thought I would ask you people....K...GO!

 

[garthman]

Hello and welcome.

 

There is a huge diversity of opinion on the subject of guitars. Basically it almost always comes down to personal preference.

 

Personally I've never had much time for either Gibson or Martin guitars. I've played a few models of each brand over the years and sadly seen or heard nothing in them that grabbed me. They are no doubt of excellent quality and workmanship but so are many many other brands that cost often less than a third of the price, spec for spec.

 

My usually advice to anyone thinking of buying either brand is to try lots of other brands first then consider how much more you want to pay for a name.

[Freeman Keller]

Ashman, first a big welcome to HCAG and hoping that you find the perfect Next Girl.

 

I assume that you have played each of these - in my humble opinion that is the ONLY way to decide - what you read in a review or the opinion of someone who you have never met on a guitar forum is worth about what you've paid for it. For example, I take Acoustic Guitar Magazine and they review three guitars every month - frankly I have never read a bad review whether the guitar is $300 or $3000, has a house hold name on the headstock or one you've never heard of. They always have something good to say and almost never something bad.

 

However the three that you have narrowed down to are kind of apples and oranges and kumquats - which actually should make your choice a little easier. The D-16RGT is a good solid Martin model, spruce over rosewood with a few of their slightly cost cutting features (fretboard, finish). The nut is 1-11/16. I've played a fair number of 16 series Martins and think they are pretty good bang for the buck guitars - potentially a good choice.

 

I've never played a J-15 Gibbie so I will have to go from the specs. It is spruce over walnut which is a slightly unusual tone wood - as I understand walnut has some of the tonal color of maple. That would probably make it a little less complex - people like maple guitars in the studio. The Gibbie has built in electronics if you need that and is 1-3/4 at the nut. That is one I would really want to play.

 

Keep in mind that with both the Martin and the Gibson you will get a new guitar warranty and if you shop carefully it should be well set up when you take possession.

 

I love old D-18's and have one myself (which I keep thinking I should sell but its just a special guitar). That means that I know the good and the bad about them and there are some potentially very bad things. As you know a D-18 is spruce over mahogany, 1-11/16 nut, won't have the electronics (but you can add easily). The problem with any old guitar is that they can change structurally and the buyer needs to know how to evaluate that (and what it will cost to fix). Typical problems include the need to reset the neck (about $300), potential fretwork ($50-150), cracks and structural issues. Many used guitars need some setup work - might be a hundred bucks from a good tech.

 

Two other things to look for on older Martins - first the guitars from the 1970's (you can date a Martin by taking the serial number to their web site) were felt to be over build and many do not have the great tone that earlier or later ones have. Secondly, up to the mid 80's they did not have adjustable truss rods so there isn't much that can be done about excessive relief (actually there is but its expensive).

 

If you decide you want to shop for an used D-18 either take someone who has experience with them or let us know here - I can point you to a couple of links of what to look for. Not saying don't buy one, just do your homework.

 

My last thought is to not limit yourself to just these brands or models. If I was shopping for a new guitar in the $2K range I would play everything I can - there are some wonderful guitars from both domestic and overseas sources that are worth considering.

 

Whatever you decide, good luck and share it with us.

[DeepEnd]

Hi and welcome to the Forum. You've already received some great advice. One minor consideration fr the D16RGT: forumite kwakatak owns one and he's noted previously that the neck is made of a fairly soft wood that picks up dings fairly readily. If you don't need the built-in electronics in the J-15 I personally wouldn't pay for them. Freeman has already mentioned the potential issues with a used D-18, although they can be excellent guitars. That said, you can get an Eastman (1 3/4'' nut) or Blueridge for half your budget that will be as good as anyone will ever need.

[Ashman21]

Thanks For the Input, I have been playing for nearly 40 years and over that span have developed a love for Both Gibson, Martin and Yamaha oddly enough, I have never had a martin with binding at the neck like my Hummingbird and was wondering what if anything that adds to a rosewood / spruce combo tone wise?

[Ashman21]

I have Played all 3, had an 18 in the 90's that was destroyed in a house fire, I remember it being very sweet sounding. Thanks for the advice on the Bads to look for with them Please post those Links for me if you would be so Kind. I Played the J-15 at GC about an Hour from me(I live in the Styx) and It sounded a bit Different than mahogany or rosewood do Pretty mid-rangy If that's a word, I spent a very short time with the D16rgt but was impressed with how comfortable it felt but again its hard to get a feel for these fine guitars in the Humidor at a busy store where there is so much sound dampening

[Ashman21]

Thank you, That is a good thing to know about the neck being a ding magnet, I really don't need the electrics package but love the out of the box thinking that the boys in Montana put into the J15 with the Walnut, Spruce and the laminated Maple neck when I played it I got the impression that it had a wide midrange but like I said in the above comment I'm not sure if that was where I was playing or the walnut or What, I have a Blueridge Historic BR-160 and she is a great sounding easy playing girl, I think Ill take the drive again this weekend and re-evaluate both and play a D18

[Freeman Keller]

I don't know what year D-18 you will be looking at - if it is fairly recent then there aren't too many known issues that are different from any other used guitar. General structural stuff, neck angle, frets and action.

 

The ones from the 70's and 80's are the big question marks and here are two good articles

 

http://www.bryankimsey.com/problems/index.htm

 

http://www.bryankimsey.com/70s_D28/index.htm

 

Bryan Kimsey is a well respect Martin mechanic, he has worked on two of mine and I'm very happy with the results. For perspective, my 1974 D-18 needed a neck reset, I also had Bryan replace the first 5 frets, the tuners, fix a key and pickguard crack, replace the rosewood bridgeplate with maple and do a little aftermarket scalloping. My guitar was nice before the work but my wifes comment when it returned was "you are playing louder".

[Freeman Keller]

I might be able to comment on the neck binding question, I do build guitars and frequently bind necks. I don't think it makes any difference in sound, whether its bound in plastic or wood, but it does make refretting considerably more difficult. I do it for looks and because its expected on certain guitars.

[garthman]

Yeah, like Freeman say, nothing whatsoever.

[Freeman Keller]

I hadn't heard of any problems, DE, but it would certainly be worthwhile pinging Kwakatak and asking him. The specs for the 16 series calls for "select hardwoods" for the neck - that is Martin's way of saying it might be either Honduras mahogany or Spanish cedar (which is really in the mahogany family). Spanish cedar is slightly lighter than H mahogany but is commonly used in classical guitar necks (and doesn't have some of the CITES restrictions). Besides what are you doing to ding the neck?

[DeepEnd]

Freeman, I've sent kwak a PM. With any luck, he'll be able to shed some light on the subject. IIRC, the issue was connected to his using a capo but I could easily be wrong.

[kwakatak]

HI, everybody. I got the pings.

 

My guitar is a 2009 D-16GT. It's got mahogany back and sides, not rosewood. The specs for this series at the time was "select hardwood" at the time. I have another guitar of another make with documented Honduran mahogany back & sides that is 3 years older with much more hours of play on it and not nearly as much wear on the back of the neck as my D-16GT. Whatever the wood may actually be, it's NOT Honduran mahogany though it looks a lot like it. The pores seem to be much more open though and weight wise it actually seems lighter than mahogany.

 

Also, when I first received the Martin it had that signature smell. I knew from talk over at UMGF and from building my own guitar that that smell was Spanish cedar. I used that wood for the kerfed lining on my build and the smell was unmistakable. On a Martin, the smell is most notable if you sniff in the soundhole but on this guitar the neck seemed to smell of it too.

 

That's my theory in a nutshell. For illustration purposes I just filmed a video of comparison of all my guitars' necks using my iPhone:

 

n22igHvabMA

[kwakatak]

If you ever make it out to a Guitar Center, pick up a Martin GC-MMV dreadnought. This was the guitar that I have been telling myself that I should have bought but jumped the gun because I finally had the money in hand. As I said in a comment above, I went with the mahogany D-16GT instead because it was a good "Bang for the Buck" (at the time street price for a new one was less than $1000, used as low as $600 in good condition) but really I wanted an HD-35. About a month after I put money down on the D-16GT at my trusted mom and pop shop I went into Guitar Center and spied a rosewood Martin dread hanging beside the HD-28, HD-28V and D-35. I picked it up and to my surprise it blew the vaunted HD-28 out of the water and IMO gave the HD-28V and the D-35s a solid run for their money.

 

As for what the GC MMV is, it's a custom run of 14 fret dreadnoughts commissioned by Guitar Center/Musicians Friend back in 2005 that purists look down on but IMO the true indicator of a guitar's worth is how many you find on the used market - which is rare. It's based off the D-15 but instead of being all sapele with rosewood bridge and fingerboard they have the traditional sitka spruce top and east Indian rosewood back and sides with ebony bridge and fingerboard. The bracing pattern differs from the D-28 and D-16RGT in that the upper bout has their A Frame bracing (two braces intersect the upper transverse brace on the upper bout and abut the upper arms of the X brace on one end and fit into an extension on the neck block on the other) and the lower bout has a smaller, irregularly shaped bridge plate that is bound on all four sides by bracing and only one lower face bar instead of two, freeing up a large area on the lower bout to vibrate more freely. The Standard series has a wide but low profile brace spanning the width of the upper bout. The 16 series has the A Frame bracing but the lower bout resembles a semi-scalloped standard bracing pattern with two lower face bars and a traditionally shaped and sized bridge plate.

 

The MAP price of the GC MMV at the time was about $1200 which was half again what I had to spend but I have heard about them selling for $800 - though I never found one. Coincidentally, there's currently a used one for sale in the classifieds over at AGF for about $1000. They go for about $1500 MAP now. If I had the funds I'd jump on it. I don't though.