SF Princeton Reverb Speaker Mod

[MDMachiavelli]

I'm sure this is talked about from time to time but I looked several pages back and didn't see anything so I'm going to ask.

 

 

I have a Silverface Princeton Reverb that is in EXCELLENT condition, I'm not sure I have seen one in better. It's a beautiful amp and has a very good sound to it. Unfortunately I am very naïve when it comes to technical aspects of vintage amps, any amp really.

 

That being said, I've thought about a speaker upgrade. I want something that I can play loud as possible and keep it clean as possible. I figured that as long as I kept the original speaker and could put it back in I would not affect the value of it, and possibly improve the sound.

 

Any ideas on what speaker, and any suggestions, opinions, and experience would be welcomed.

 

Thanks.

[onelife]

I put a Jensen P10R in mine. It's sort of the opposite of what you are going for with the loudest and cleanest possible but it did change from being a practice amp to gig worthy and it is excellent for recording.

[DeepEnd]

If you want your amp to get louder, you'll want a speaker that has higher "sensitivity," which means how loud it gets for a given input power. The Jensen P10R that's in your Princeton Reverb has a sensitivity of 95.2dB for an input of 1 Watt. There are some Eminence models that have higher sensitivity and won't break the bank. The Legend 105 and Ragin Cajun both have a sensitivity of 100dB for 1 Watt, meaning it will be as if your amp had three times as much power. Both are rated to handle 75 Watts so your Princeton will distort before the speaker does. Celestion speakers are another option but they're not usually associated with Fender amps.

[MDMachiavelli]

If you want your amp to get louder' date=' you'll want a speaker that has higher "sensitivity," which means how loud it gets for a given input power. The Jensen P10R that's in your Princeton Reverb has a sensitivity of 95.2dB for an input of 1 Watt. There are some Eminence models that have higher sensitivity and won't break the bank. The Legend 105 and Ragin Cajun both have a sensitivity of 100dB for 1 Watt, meaning it will be as if your amp had three times as much power. Both are rated to handle 75 Watts so your Princeton will distort before the speaker does. Celestion speakers are another option but they're not usually associated with Fender amps.[/quote']

 

Thanks for your input, I'll definitely check them out. Have you ever heard of Weber, it seems anytime I bring this subject up people mention Weber?

[DeepEnd]

I have no direct experience with them but Webers are supposed to be very good, comparable to vintage Jensens. The issue I have with Weber is that they don't make specs available so that IMHO you don't know what you're getting and it ends up being a crap shoot. Further, if you simply want to replace a Jensen, Weber makes sense but if your goal is to improve on the Jensen speaker you already have, why would you get something that's supposed to be essentially the same thing?

[onelife]

Here's your answer

 

[video=youtube;HC25NwrRNvo]

 

I'd like to find one of these for my Mesa Boogie Subway Blues

[MDMachiavelli]

I have no direct experience with them but Webers are supposed to be very good' date=' comparable to vintage Jensens. The issue I have with Weber is that they don't make specs available so that IMHO you don't know what you're getting and it ends up being a crap shoot. Further, if you simply want to [b']replace[/b] a Jensen, Weber makes sense but if your goal is to improve on the Jensen speaker you already have, why would you get something that's supposed to be essentially the same thing?

 

 

I'm not sure, that's the whole reason I'm asking.

[WRGKMC]

I bought a pair of Weber's on sale from MF several months ago and put them in a 2X12 closed back cab. They have the looks and build of a Jensen, but it doesn't make them a substitute.

 

The speakers that came out of that cab were from either a Peavey or Sunn amp. They are the typical unlabeled black magnet Eminence speakers you find in many manufacturers cabs in the 70's 80's. They were likely 30W speakers and were pretty ragged out for tone. I had patched up some bad tears in them with Elmers glue, and one had been flooded in a buddy's garage and half submerged. None of this made for better tone.

 

I tried the Weber's using 6 different heads including my Fenders, Marshall Sunn and Ampeg. I can truthfully say they sounded like crap and much worse then the crap speakers I had pulled out of that cab. This puts them very low on my recommendation list. If you had an amp and had no speaker and were very hard up for cash they will produce sound, but that's as far as I'd go.

 

I realize Its only one set out of many they make, but even bargain basement Jensens MOD speakers will blow them away.

I'm hoping to find some use for them so its not a complete loss. I may try the two in a 4X12 next with another pair that sound better. If that doesn't work I'll likely dump them on ebay and try and get some money back on them.

[Phil O'Keefe]

As Onelife said, if you can find one, put a EVM 10 in there. I doubt you'll find a more efficient 10" speaker, and that's what you want if you're looking to maximize clean volume.

 

I've got a EVM 12 in my Fender Princeton Reverb II and people are always amazed it's "only" a 20W amp. It's LOUD!

 

Fender used a bunch of different speakers in the Princetons over the years... Utah, Jensen, Eminence, Oxford, and even EVMs as a factory option in the Super Champ and Princeton II... some stock speakers are considered to be more desirable than others.

 

A few years ago, I rebuilt / restored / blackfaced a thrashed '71 Princeton Amp. It had an old Oxford in it that I could have re-coned, but I've never been a huge Oxford fan. I was going to put a Weber into it (they make speakers that do a good job recreating the sound of the original and very desirable Jensens that Fender used in the 60s), but went with a reissue Jensen C-10R as a temp measure, and it's been in there ever since. It's not as good as the originals IMHO, but it's surprisingly good for not much money. IIRC the efficiency is somewhere around 96dB @ 1W / 1m for them, so they're not going to compete with the EVM on volume (101-103 dB) but depending on what you have in there, it might be as good - or a bit better.

 

If you are wondering what you have in there, look for any white numbers and letters stamped on the speaker frame - if you post what you see, I can decipher it for you and tell you who made the speaker, and when.

 

 

 

[DeepEnd]

As Onelife said' date=' if you can find one, put a EVM 10 in there. I doubt you'll find a more efficient 10" speaker, and that's what you want if you're looking to maximize clean volume. . . .[/quote']

Sorry but no. The EVM 10 is spec'ed at 99 dB sensitivity (1 Watt @ 1 meter): http://www.electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?f=evm10m-eds.pdf. The Eminence Rajin' Cajun is spec'ed at 100.5 dB: http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Ragin_Cajun.pdf, equal to about 41% more power, plus it's less expensive and easier to find. Granted, EV's specs may be conservative and Eminence's inflated but short of doing your own side-by-side testing I'd give the nod to the Eminence. For additional reference, the Celestion G10 Gold is spec'ed at 98 dB: http://celestion.com/product/7/celestion_g10_gold/. Assuming the OP's Princeton Reverb actually has a Jensen P10R in it (the latest version does, if it's an older amp all bets are off) any of the above will be an improvement to one degree or another.

[WRGKMC]

^^^ I think Phil was talking about the EV10L, a vintage Driver for guitar amps common back in the 70's and hasn't been made in in a long time. The specs are the same as the EV 12L and has 100db sensitivity. Both EV and Altec were the best guitar speakers made back then. The new ones aren't the same thing.

SPECIFICATIONS

Usable Frequency Response in a Typical

Vented 1.3-Cubic-Foot Enclosure

(1 watt/1 meter; see Figure 1):

80-5,000 Hz

Sound Pressure Level (1 watt/1 meter):

100 dB

Long-Term Average Power Handling

Capacity (per EIA RS-426-A 1980; see

Power Handling section):

300 watts

Nominal Impedance:

8 ohms

Voice Coil Diameter:

63.5 mm (2.5 in.)

Thiele-Small Driver Parameters

fs (free-air resonance frequency):

55 Hz

QES (electromagnetic Q at fs):

0.245

QMS (mechanical

 

 

 

Paul Rivera made those speakers back then. This video explains some details on them.

 

[MDMachiavelli]

Sorry but no. The EVM 10 is spec'ed at 99 dB sensitivity (1 Watt @ 1 meter): http://www.electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?f=evm10m-eds.pdf. The Eminence Rajin' Cajun is spec'ed at 100.5 dB: http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Ragin_Cajun.pdf, equal to about 41% more power, plus it's less expensive and easier to find. Granted, EV's specs may be conservative and Eminence's inflated but short of doing your own side-by-side testing I'd give the nod to the Eminence. For additional reference, the Celestion G10 Gold is spec'ed at 98 dB: http://celestion.com/product/7/celestion_g10_gold/. Assuming the OP's Princeton Reverb actually has a Jensen P10R in it (the latest version does, if it's an older amp all bets are off) any of the above will be an improvement to one degree or another.

 

1971 I believe, here is a pic of the back of the amp.

 

I also included another one. What do you think about that condition?

 

 

[WRGKMC]

Looks clean. I jammed with a guy who had the same amp a couple of years ago. He had to set it up near ear level to be heard over the drummer. The tone was good. It recorded very well but was underpowered for the amps the rest of the band was using. Not sure how much better he would have done with a high SPL speaker. It would be louder but the box size has a small footprint and lacks the bass response for competing with larger cabs.

[MDMachiavelli]

Looks clean. I jammed with a guy who had the same amp a couple of years ago. He had to set it up near ear level to be heard over the drummer. The tone was good. It recorded very well but was underpowered for the amps the rest of the band was using. Not sure how much better he would have done with a high SPL speaker. It would be louder but the box size has a small footprint and lacks the bass response for competing with larger cabs.

 

Yeah they are somewhat under powered, and for the record I didn't get it because I thought it could hang.

 

Let me elaborate a little on my original post.

 

I play "outlaw/honky tonk" 60s -70s style country music. I play a custom partscaster I made out of vintage parts, most importantly a 1968 Telecaster neck. The pickup set I put in this guitar is Dimarzio Twang Kings. I definitely like, and need, the twang for the type of music I play. So that's what I'm playing through my amp.

 

For years I used various amps, but when I saw country guitar players start using the Vox, I bought an AC15. I didn't buy an AC30 because it was just too damn big and I always mic my amp. I know some people don't like the idea of reinforcing the amp, and I guess that's a topic for another thread, but I do.

 

Anyway I had still been looking to get a vintage Fender regardless of whether I played it on stage or not when I noticed Marty Stuart using a Princeton Reverb. Well I got to looking into it and Marty basically said whether he is playing on the show for 100 people or playing for 1,000s during a concert, the BF/SF Princeton Reverb is his Holy Grail. I then decided on a quest to get me a good BF/SF PR for two reasons. First, if its good enough for Marty Stuart then it is good enough for me, and second it lighter and has a smaller footprint.

 

Now I love the sound of the PR, and I believe it has enough clean headroom if I mic it, but its always good to have more. As I said earlier I play my partscaster through my pedalboard. I very seldom use an overdriven sound, and when I do which is maybe 5% of the songs I may play on a given gig, I use a pedal. Therefore I like my amps to have as much clean headroom as possible. I'm also not big on amp reverb. I have about 6 or 7 pedals on my board at a time (not including a tuner) those usually include a phase 90 (I'm a big Waylon fan), a TC HOF Rverb (that pretty much stays on), and an Ego Compressor (that is definitely always on), two delays (Carbon Copy and Flashback), and two overdrives (MojoMojo & a Modded VL Sparkle Drive).

 

So maybe that will give you a little more background and let you know what I'm using to get to my desired sound. I guess all of that in my chain plays an important part in my sound so it goes:

 

PARTSCASTER ---> TWANG KINGS ---> PEDALBOARD ----> AMP

 

 

Thanks.

[DeepEnd]

^^^ I think Phil was talking about the EV10L' date=' a vintage Driver for guitar amps common back in the 70's and hasn't been made in in a long time. The specs are the same as the EV 12L and has 100db sensitivity. Both EV and Altec were the best guitar speakers made back then. The new ones aren't the same thing. . . .[/quote']

No, but the last time I checked 100 was still less than 100.5.

 

. . . What do you think about that condition?

Your amp is in amazing condition for an amp of any age, let alone a 45 year old amp. I can't see a model number for the speaker but Jensen recommends a C10R or P10R as a replacement: https://www.jensentone.com/vintage_replacements. Both those are around 95 dB sensitivity so anything above that would be an improvement: Eminence, EV, etc.

[MDMachiavelli]

No, but the last time I checked 100 was still less than 100.5.

 

 

Your amp is in amazing condition for an amp of any age, let alone a 45 year old amp. I can't see a model number for the speaker but Jensen recommends a C10R or P10R as a replacement: https://www.jensentone.com/vintage_replacements. Both those are around 95 dB sensitivity so anything above that would be an improvement: Eminence, EV, etc.

 

Thanks man, it is in pretty damn good shape. I'm pretty proud of it. I guess I got lucky.

[guitarcapo]

I put a Jensen C12N in mine. It fit fine and I used a jigsaw to make the baffle hole a little larger.

[DeepEnd]

I put a Jensen C12N in mine. It fit fine and I used a jigsaw to make the baffle hole a little larger.

I'd be hard pressed to justify cutting up a mint condition 45 year old amp, especially if the OP has any intention of putting it back in original condition, which he's said he does.

 

[MDMachiavelli]

I'd be hard pressed to justify cutting up a mint condition 45 year old amp, especially if the OP has any intention of putting it back in original condition, which he's said he does.

 

Yeah, I couldn't even fathom doing something like that.

[onelife]

I use a '73 Princeton Reverb with a Jensen P10R for gigs with a little help from the PA.

[onelife]

Thanks man' date=' it is in pretty damn good shape. I'm pretty proud of it. I guess I got lucky. [/quote']

 

It looks like mine when I first got it but 25 years of regular use have turned it into an old amp. I had been hauling 100lbs of Twin Reverb/EVM12L around for a while so the first gig with the Princeton was a real treat because I could carry my amp and guitar at the same time.

 

I bought a Groove Tubes solid state rectifier for it and it made the amp sound cleaner with a lot less sag. However, my amp repair guru friend said the device is not a good choice in the Princeton Reverb because the higher plate voltage will result in too much plate current for the Princeton's power transformer. Being more concerned about the health of the amplifier than the extra headroom, I went back to the tube rectifier.

 

Perhaps some tube amp experts here can elaborate on the merits or risks associated with a replacement solid state rectifier in a older Princeton Reverb.

[WRGKMC]

 

1971 I believe, here is a pic of the back of the amp.

 

I also included another one. What do you think about that condition?

 

 

 

Are you sure that's a vintage amp. By the quality of the amps appearance it looks to be one of these reissues...... http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PrinceRev68?adpos=1o2&creative=55281333121&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CO6Kwv7ekMwCFQiqaQodCMsK2Q

 

Still not a cheap amp. $899 new for a 12W Silverface reissue is about as ridiculous as it gets. Back when I was growing up silver faced amps were seen as a second rate amp. CBS hade cut corners on the production and added many cost saving and tone sucking mods to them. Of course many of those could be undone but the bad rap stuck for a good 40 years and you could buy them for chump change up till maybe 10 years ago. I cant believe they are trying to charge nearly $900 on an amp that had no resale value, but I guess the good deals on used ones has dried up.

 

The parts that comprise the amp might cost $200 or even less if you know how to get good deals on them. I think Fender is getting greedy on allot of the stuff they been selling. The amp was considered to be a budget practice amp after all.

 

Of course not meant to be a criticism of your amp choice MDMachiavelli. Its one of the better student model amps of the time. I too like small amps for doing certain things including recording and small rehearsals, acoustic jams etc. You can mic them and sound pretty good but the amp was designed as a beginners amp at beginners pricing.

 

I think they sold for under $200 or less back then and people had a hard time giving them away used. I'd see them sold for $50 all the time back in my High School days and maybe $100 in the 80's for one in mint shape. That would be around $200 ~400 in todays currency. Rarity will drive the pricing up of course but I see the used ones sold for $1200~1500 now and I just scratch my head. I'm an electronic tech and see the amp by the worth of its raw materials and labor to build one. I buy used gear and refurbish it and use a baseline of $1 ~$2 a watt. When something sells for $100 a watt it becomes obscene. You'd have to put a value of $10 on a ten cent carbon resistor and spend $400 on a $25 transformer to get that high.

 

My views are unique here because I earn a living in electronics. (I got in the business so I could accumulate gear for prices well below anything a consumer would pay) The fact remains, the price of components has actually gone down since the 70's not up. Labor of course is a different issue. Guys like me who used to have jobs in repair shops cant earn a living today doing that any more. People could afford to pay $20 and hour in the 70's. If you only account for inflation that's $100 and hour today. You can buy a new amp for the cost of a few hours to repair one.

 

I can easily build one of those amps in a singe night and even buy the face plate and logo, exceed its quality of the components used and exceed its tone. But building to sell one when you add in the labor and time needed for scrounging up parts you cant touch the assembly line build. If Fender was making amps by hand like they used to they'd go bankrupt. The cost of qualified labor is too high and the workmanship of unskilled workers would ruin them with all the warrantee claims.

 

Of course performing live has other aspects besides tone that come into play. Vanity runs deep in any kind of public appearance and gear is a status symbol to the audience so having a well know logo is part of its mojo. Gear manufacturers rely on envy and pride spread word of mouth to sell most of their gear.

[MDMachiavelli]

 

Are you sure that's a vintage amp. By the quality of the amps appearance it looks to be one of these reissues...... http://www.sweetwater.com/store/deta...FQiqaQodCMsK2Q

 

Still not a cheap amp. $899 new for a 12W Silverface reissue is about as ridiculous as it gets. Back when I was growing up silver faced amps were seen as a second rate amp. CBS hade cut corners on the production and added many cost saving and tone sucking mods to them. Of course many of those could be undone but the bad rap stuck for a good 40 years and you could buy them for chump change up till maybe 10 years ago. I cant believe they are trying to charge nearly $900 on an amp that had no resale value, but I guess the good deals on used ones has dried up.

 

The parts that comprise the amp might cost $200 or even less if you know how to get good deals on them. I think Fender is getting greedy on allot of the stuff they been selling. The amp was considered to be a budget practice amp after all.

 

Of course not meant to be a criticism of your amp choice MDMachiavelli. Its one of the better student model amps of the time. I too like small amps for doing certain things including recording and small rehearsals, acoustic jams etc. You can mic them and sound pretty good but the amp was designed as a beginners amp at beginners pricing.

 

I think they sold for under $200 or less back then and people had a hard time giving them away used. I'd see them sold for $50 all the time back in my High School days and maybe $100 in the 80's for one in mint shape. That would be around $200 ~400 in todays currency. Rarity will drive the pricing up of course but I see the used ones sold for $1200~1500 now and I just scratch my head. I'm an electronic tech and see the amp by the worth of its raw materials and labor to build one. I buy used gear and refurbish it and use a baseline of $1 ~$2 a watt. When something sells for $100 a watt it becomes obscene. You'd have to put a value of $10 on a ten cent carbon resistor and spend $400 on a $25 transformer to get that high.

 

My views are unique here because I earn a living in electronics. (I got in the business so I could accumulate gear for prices well below anything a consumer would pay) The fact remains, the price of components has actually gone down since the 70's not up. Labor of course is a different issue. Guys like me who used to have jobs in repair shops cant earn a living today doing that any more. People could afford to pay $20 and hour in the 70's. If you only account for inflation that's $100 and hour today. You can buy a new amp for the cost of a few hours to repair one.

 

I can easily build one of those amps in a singe night and even buy the face plate and logo, exceed its quality of the components used and exceed its tone. But building to sell one when you add in the labor and time needed for scrounging up parts you cant touch the assembly line build. If Fender was making amps by hand like they used to they'd go bankrupt. The cost of qualified labor is too high and the workmanship of unskilled workers would ruin them with all the warrantee claims.

 

Of course performing live has other aspects besides tone that come into play. Vanity runs deep in any kind of public appearance and gear is a status symbol to the audience so having a well know logo is part of its mojo. Gear manufacturers rely on envy and pride spread word of mouth to sell most of their gear.

 

I'm not sure I should be thankful or offended at your post.

 

First I posted a pic of the back of my SFPR and a pic of the back SFPR Reissue. You can't tell the difference between those two? For one, the original has an accessory output, a ground switch, cord coming from under it instead of the back, and numerous other things that are distinctly different from a Reissue. Also, I checked the serial number ......duh. It's almost as if you accuse me of not being intelligent enough to check to make sure before I bought it. You allude to the fact that I can't tell the difference when its obvious you can't tell the difference. If you DO in fact work on amps and build them, I'm not sure I want you anywhere near mine.

 

Second, you sure spend a lot of time making backhanded pokes and under the cuff negative remarks about the amp. You don't like the amp, I'm fine with that but to say things like "its one of the better student model amps" would comical coming from someone who didn't claim to be an expert on amps. Am I detecting a "hate"? Again you may be an electronics guy, and you may know a little about amps, but between this statement and the previous one I pointed out I think I would let Carl from Sling Blade work on my amp first.

 

I guess someone forgot to tell Marty Stuart about your revelation

 

 

[WRGKMC]

Sorry I missed seeing the back of that amp. I just came across those reissues the other day, saw the front.

 

That's why I asked you is it was a reissue......... because it looked so clean.

 

I wasn't attempting to be backhanded or negative. That's your own projection. I think you do me an injustice for thinking so. You have a good amp so enjoy it. Just realize not everyone is going to think its the best amp made.

 

I'm nearly 60 years old and have been playing since I was 8. The first amp I actually bought was a Moserite amp. I thought it was the coolest till the overdrive cooked about a week after I bought it. I had it repaired and it blew again. The guy said he tried and couldn't do any more for me.

 

I was burned by an electronic tech at 10 years old and swore I'd never do that to someone else. I in fact did go on to get two degrees in electronics and have worked in the business ever since. Anyone whose done business with me knows I'm fair and honest. I've in fact quit jobs where they wanted me to be otherwise.

 

Music is my passion and electronics just a paycheck to me. After you see the insides of a few thousand amps busting hump to get them repaired 8 hours a day you know which use the best quality parts. You also get to know which you wouldn't want to own even if someone gave it to you.

 

Fender has always been a baseline, middle of the road manufacturer for quality. Nothing thrilling, just meat and potatoes. I can easily name a half a dozen or more superior builds and tons of lower quality stuff.

 

 

Its no different then an auto Mechanic having an opinion about the cars they repair.

 

If you ask them what they like an dislike about a Ford or Chevy they'll tell you. If you ask them they they prefer and how it compares to your car, you'll likely need a thicker skin when the comparison is made.

 

Same thing goes for any other service trade out there.

 

When you're earning a living, and someone's paying you to do repairs, you are going to tell what they want to hear, not what they should hear. You want to get paid and you don't get paid by telling people the truth, you get paid by telling them what they want to hear.

 

I have a bunch of small amps at the moment including a 15W Marshall, 10w Ampeg, 15W Fender Champ, and a 65W Princeton 65W Peavey Studio. I can list you another dozen small combos I've owned over the years that are fine for what they. I prefer larger amps for the music I play. I can sing as loud as a 12W amp without a mic. I need at least 30 to feel anything from one so you can see I'm a little biased on size preference.

.

[onelife]

Absolutely is an old amp. Just look at the Reverb connections, AC power outlet and fixed power cable on the back of the unit.

 

The lower powered Fender amps with 6V6 output tubes were not changed very much, if at all, when CBS took over.

 

I have a '73 Princeton Reverb that I bought used for $250 in the early '90s and once I scraped off the layer of nicotine it looked like the one in the picture. It's a gig worthy amp and after 25 years of regular use it doesn't look like that any more.

 

btw, neither the Princeton Reverb nor the SF Champ was never considered a second rate amplifier by those in the know. Have you noticed the stack of four Fender Champs behind George Harrison onstage at the Concert for Bangladesh? If not, then here's a link to a picture of them…

 

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/37/cf/0a/37cf0ae7fbe1130d27729830d088f0fc.jpg