SF Princeton Reverb Speaker Mod

[onelife]

. . .

I'm an electronic tech and see the amp by the worth of its raw materials and labor to build one.

 

I'm rather well versed in electronics as well but I'm also a guitar player and I guage the value of an amplifier by the sound that comes out of it and whether or not that sound works for me.

 

When something sells for $100 a watt it becomes obscene.

 

There's nothing obscene about a Priceton Reverb. Have you ever used one for any length of time either for recording or live work?

 

You'd have to put a value of $10 on a ten cent carbon resistor and spend $400 on a $25 transformer to get that high.

 

Or you could just make a really good sounding amp.

 

My views are unique here because I earn a living in electronics.

 

There are lots of people in this forum who "earn a living in electronics" so perhaps your views are unique for some other reason.

 

I can easily build one of those amps in a singe night and even buy the face plate and logo, exceed its quality of the components used and exceed its tone.

 

They are great amps and if you can make them better then I say go for it - even if you just build one for yourself. I might buy one from you if it really does sound better than mine.

 

Of course performing live has other aspects besides tone that come into play. Vanity runs deep in any kind of public appearance and gear is a status symbol to the audience so having a well know logo is part of its mojo. Gear manufacturers rely on envy and pride spread word of mouth to sell most of their gear.

 

Really?

 

When I removed the finish from my Gibson Les Paul and my Fender Stratocaster I also removed the logos. They are better playing and sounding guitars as a result and I don't care about status or resale value. They are musical instruments and the most important thing is the music.

 

 

 

 

 

[onelife]

The Princeton (Reverb) may well have been "designed as a beginners amp at beginners pricing" as you say but, like the Stratocaster, it ended up being much more than it was designed for.

 

Most people, Including Leo Fender and Freddie Tavares, had no idea of what the strat was capable of until Jimi came along and showed us.

 

The strat is not popular (and sometimes very expensive) because of the design as much as it is because of the music that has been created with it.

[guitarcapo]

Mine was a 1979. I'm not a collector, I'm a player. Paid $600 for it a while back. Didn't care much about all that mint condition collector crap. I also gave it the Stokes mod internally which gave it more headroom.

[guitarcapo]

It sounds a lot better with a more efficient 12" in there. More like a single channel Deluxe Reverb now. I love it.

[guitarcapo]

Not so much the power transformer being taxed...it's the tubes. A solid state rectifier will increase the B+ voltage everywhere....but will actually reduce the current demand on the power transformer because the rectifier tube won't require filament current if it's replaced with a solid state plug-in. Princeton Reverbs have a plate voltage over 400V already and 6V6 tubes are already pushed over their ratings at that. Using a solid state rectifier would push those voltages higher. No harm to the power transformer...but you'll be blowing tubes (and possibly taking out other components secondary)

[guitarcapo]

I don't know what gigs you are playing but I usually need at least 22 watts to play with a drummer in a band. Unless I'm using a mic to the PA to goose things up a bit.

[guitarcapo]

Blackface Fenders are decent design amps. But there's nothing magical about them that can't be replicated with better components and workmanship today. A lot of the market forces that made them desirable years ago just don't hold true these days. If you like tooling around in a 50's Porsche and are willing to spend huge bucks to do so, have at it. But don't kid yourself that there's something magical about your car that can't be duplicated or surpassed by modern designs in terms of raw performance and value.

[DeepEnd]

You're more than welcome to do whatever you want to your own amp, of course. I simply pointed out that I wouldn't think of doing it to the OP's amp.

[MDMachiavelli]

 

I'm rather well versed in electronics as well but I'm also a guitar player and I guage the value of an amplifier by the sound that comes out of it and whether or not that sound works for me.

 

 

 

There's nothing obscene about a Priceton Reverb. Have you ever used one for any length of time either for recording or live work?

 

 

 

Or you could just make a really good sounding amp.

 

 

 

There are lots of people in this forum who "earn a living in electronics" so perhaps your views are unique for some other reason.

 

 

 

They are great amps and if you can make them better then I say go for it - even if you just build one for yourself. I might buy one from you if it really does sound better than mine.

 

 

 

Really?

 

When I removed the finish from my Gibson Les Paul and my Fender Stratocaster I also removed the logos. They are better playing and sounding guitars as a result and I don't care about status or resale value. They are musical instruments and the most important thing is the music.

 

 

 

 

 

Great well put answer.

[MDMachiavelli]

Blackface Fenders are decent design amps. But there's nothing magical about them that can't be replicated with better components and workmanship today. A lot of the market forces that made them desirable years ago just don't hold true these days. If you like tooling around in a 50's Porsche and are willing to spend huge bucks to do so' date=' have at it. But don't kid yourself that there's something magical about your car that can't be duplicated or surpassed by modern designs in terms of raw performance and value.[/quote']

 

Who said there was something "magical" about it?

[Phil O'Keefe]

Sorry but no. The EVM 10 is spec'ed at 99 dB sensitivity (1 Watt @ 1 meter): http://www.electrovoice.com/downloadfile.php?f=evm10m-eds.pdf. The Eminence Rajin' Cajun is spec'ed at 100.5 dB: http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Ragin_Cajun.pdf, equal to about 41% more power, plus it's less expensive and easier to find. Granted, EV's specs may be conservative and Eminence's inflated but short of doing your own side-by-side testing I'd give the nod to the Eminence. For additional reference, the Celestion G10 Gold is spec'ed at 98 dB: http://celestion.com/product/7/celestion_g10_gold/. Assuming the OP's Princeton Reverb actually has a Jensen P10R in it (the latest version does, if it's an older amp all bets are off) any of the above will be an improvement to one degree or another.

 

E/V has changed their specs on the EVMs at least three times now that I'm aware of. Originally they were rated at 103dB @ 1W / 1m, then 101 dB, and now 99... and yes, I'd say their ratings are conservative; not only for sensitivity, but also RMS power handling. I've never done a side by side with a Ragin' Cajun, but I wouldn't bet that they're more efficient based solely on the currently published respective manufacturer's specifications.

[Phil O'Keefe]

 

1971 I believe, here is a pic of the back of the amp.

 

I also included another one. What do you think about that condition?

 

 

 

Nice clean silverface you have there! There's very little difference electronically between the blackface and all but the latest of sliverface Princetons, and I still think they're some of the best recording amps ever made.

 

The Jensen you have in your amp is a modern reproduction, not an original. IIRC, they have a sensitivity rating of 95dB @ 1W / 1m, or right around that. Go with a Ragin' Cajun or EV and you'll increase the amp's loudness/output level noticeably.

 

For more on how wattage, speaker efficiency and loudness interact, you might want to check out this article.

[onelife]

The magic is in the music not in the amplifiers.

 

A good amp can provide a nice clear channel for the music to come through but a bad amp can get in the way.

 

When I do FOH I don't "make people sound good" but instead I remove the obstacles that get in the way so they can make themselves sound good.

 

One of the obstacles can be lack of enough power to create a big enough channel for the music to come through without interference.

[DeepEnd]

E/V has changed their specs on the EVMs at least three times now that I'm aware of. Originally they were rated at 103dB @ 1W / 1m' date=' then 101 dB, and now 99... and yes, I'd say their ratings are conservative; not only for sensitivity, but also RMS power handling. I've never done a side by side with a Ragin' Cajun, but I wouldn't bet that they're more efficient based solely on the currently published respective manufacturer's specifications.[/quote']

Probably not but the EVM10 is rare and expensive. There's one on eBay right now for half a grand: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRAZY-RARE-NEW-BNIB-Electro-Voice-EV-EVM-10M-speaker-driver-/281997216335?hash=item41a8580a4f:g:6mMAAOSwz2lXB-F4. Meanwhile, Ragin Cajuns are easy to find and around $65-70. Plus, we're talking about installing one in a 12 Watt amp so I don't really think power handling is an issue.

[MDMachiavelli]

Probably not but the EVM10 is rare and expensive. There's one on eBay right now for half a grand: http://www.ebay.com/itm/CRAZY-RARE-NEW-BNIB-Electro-Voice-EV-EVM-10M-speaker-driver-/281997216335?hash=item41a8580a4f:g:6mMAAOSwz2lXB-F4. Meanwhile, Ragin Cajuns are easy to find and around $65-70. Plus, we're talking about installing one in a 12 Watt amp so I don't really think power handling is an issue.

 

So you would go with the Ragin Cajun over the Weber for loud and clean? If so what gives Ragin Cajun the edge?

[DeepEnd]

So you would go with the Ragin Cajun over the Weber for loud and clean? If so what gives Ragin Cajun the edge?

If the Webers are indeed comparable to vintage Jensens that means they probably have a sensitivity of around 95dB, which means you won't gain anything. The Ragin Cajun, OTOH, has a sensitivity of 100 dB, which will translate into the equivalent of about four times the amp power. If you're trying to wring as much out of a 12 Watt amp as you can that will make a difference. As I mentioned, my big gripe with Weber is that you can't find specs for them so you don't really know what you're getting. I've heard that the Weber is "better balanced and more 'Fendery'" but that doesn't really tell me much. The Eminence Legend 105 is another option that also has a sensitivity of 100 dB, plus it's a bit cheaper than the Ragin Cajun but with a bit less bottom end.

[MDMachiavelli]

If the Webers are indeed comparable to vintage Jensens that means they probably have a sensitivity of around 95dB, which means you won't gain anything. The Ragin Cajun, OTOH, has a sensitivity of 100 dB, which will translate into the equivalent of about four times the amp power. If you're trying to wring as much out of a 12 Watt amp as you can that will make a difference. As I mentioned, my big gripe with Weber is that you can't find specs for them so you don't really know what you're getting. I've heard that the Weber is "better balanced and more 'Fendery'" but that doesn't really tell me much. The Eminence Legend 105 is another option that also has a sensitivity of 100 dB, plus it's a bit cheaper than the Ragin Cajun but with a bit less bottom end.

 

Thanks for all of your help. I think I'll start with the Ragin Cajun, for no more than it cost I haven't lost much if it doesn't work out.

[DeepEnd]

Good luck. Bear in mind that your amp won't sound the same but you might like the result. Let us know how you like it.