Original Bands and Musicians: Are You Out There?

[David Himes]

I've lived in SF my whole life' date=' and have done tons of gigs playing originals. I spent ten years in a Latin rock band and we played dive bars in the city, the Greek Theatre in Berkeley, and everything in between. Played the street fairs, the festivals, and plenty of clubs. Jazz gigs, salsa gigs, flamenco gigs, rumba gigs, rock gigs, all with some originals, some with just about all originals. In fact, I'd say there are more original gigs in town than cover gigs. I've played in a few full time cover bands, and all those gigs were out of town, or full time road gigs. In the last month I've done two original music gigs at great venues-one public, one private. I think that although it is way tougher to make money doing clubs playing anything, there are still plenty of paying gigs for original music. But, if you are in a rock band doing three band a night bills, you are likely going home without any cash unless you have a really solid following.[/quote']

Good calls. BUt when doing originals, you need to build a solid following. Contrary to popular belief, the original scene is a way different game than the cover scene, with an entirely different set of rules.

[FormerlyBassred]

I'm in an original project called Beau Hodges Band here in Vegas. Started off with original stuff when I was 17, then Did the cover band thing for 15+ years before this.

 

My original stuff that the band isn't going to use can be found on my personal Reverbnation page:

http://www.reverbnation.com/jwolskerocks

 

[GtrGeorge!]

Some interesting stuff here. I am happy to hear the SF may like original art more than derivatives. Way COOL! I knew I loved that town for a good reason! (Besides the great book stores!) But here in NY (Long Island) its been a slaughterhouse for original music, from my experience. We got great reviews,made CDs, did cable TV etc but in the end...if anything gets big enough...the rooms get intimidated by certain people...and told to favor other things (which they have an interest in)..thats what I saw in the 80s and even in the 90s although the volume of cash was greatly different.(Much less...so much less that I was surprised that anybody would find it WORTH it to go beat people up over it). Ok, so now its 2014..and there is NO money at all in it. It's like Bonfire of the Vanities. People make music for the purpose of giving it away. They don't seem to have any game plan at all. I have found plenty of live work, but doing covers. I think people suggesting that I/we "throw a few originals in"..are naive. The risks versus benefits seem ridiculously skewed towards "why bother". Not trying to be negative..just trying to be completely unbiased,based on experiences.

[MartinC]

That is a shame GtrGeorge. I think the type of gig you do and the style you play has a lot to do with making money playing originals. I play a lot of flamenco, flamenco derived, and latin music. Many people don't know any of the "standards" in these styles so who knows who wrote what. As a "Latin" group, it's way easier to play what you want than in a rock group IMO. Same with say, a bluegrass band. If someone wants that sound, it doesn't mean they know the standards in that style. If you write good bluegrass tunes, you could get those gigs and play your own material.

 

Also, at this point in my life I do mostly corporates, and there is still decent money in those gigs. Doesn't matter original or cover, you get paid by the length of the event and the number of players, in addition to your reputation.

No following, no promo, no selling tickets, needed. When I play a club these days, it's strictly for fun-I don't even think about the money. Trying to make money in clubs as an original artist..........your going to put out ten times the energy and work to make a really small return vs. just about any other kind of work, be it music related or flipping burgers. Unless you are going all out for the record deal career artist thing, it's a time wasting money loser for 99.9999 percent of the folks engaged in that activity.

 

David, I have to disagree that the "rules" are different. Bottom line, if someone is a talented player and can get along with people, he is going to find work. Most of the full time players I know don't care what the music is or who wrote it. They want paying gigs. Of course a great jazz player would rather play with like minded jazz folks than play brick house at a wedding, but throw 5 bills at that guy, and most likely, he's there. If there are young guys out there trying to break a band, then sure, build a following if you can. But don't neglect personal development to promote a band. Band's don't last, but good musicians do.

[sventvkg]

Look..I just spent 4 years in a town called Music City where I watched the most concentrated volume of talent I have ever seen in my considerably well traveled and gigged life, work crappy day jobs and play gigs for nothing just for some kid of an industry break...Chance. I saw a couple people do well. 2 Got record deals, had hits, etc. A Few writers I knew have had some hits as well. But the VAST majority are working day gigs doing bull{censored} jobs they have ZERO interest in when they are more talented, skilled and better at music than they will be at ANYTHING else they could ever attempt to do for $$( Including me!)....Original Scene...Yes..there's a HUGE one in NVille and mostly no one gives a {censored}e........I say good luck to anyone trying to have a Career with original music. Congratulations, now more then ever you are competing with every band and every album, song, video that's EVERY BEEN RECORDED!!!!....

[Vito Corleone]

I was just going to post a lot of what MartinC just did. There IS a market for original music in alternative genres---especially such genres where people just want to hear good playing in a particular style and don't care that much about which song it is. I don't know if that's saying a good thing or a bad thing about the original material, but it does give one an outlet for creativity if you like writing and perfoming in those styles.

 

Also, I see a market for such bands especially if they've worked to build a good following and reputation. There are bands around Nor Cal that are locally very well known and people love to hear them play their original music in their unique styles, even though they've never broken out of the regional area.

 

What's tough (and always has been) is making a name for yourself in ultra-competitive pop markets. Yes, Nashville's tough. Like LA during the 80s or NYC during the 70s. Hard to get noticed when there are 10,000 acts all playing virtually the exact same "original" material and all competing for the same 100 record deals. Of which 5 will ever become big stars.

[Iamthesky]

Originals here too, in the Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area of North Carolina.

 

Fredfin Wallaby is a project I'd been planning while in my last band, and it's finally coming together. In the last couple of weeks we turned the corner to where we're working together, listening to each other, and jamming solidly and making space. And that's let us work on tricky new songs faster than I was expecting. Should be booking dates very soon now.

 

We're a 6-piece New Prog band (e.g. The Mars Volta), with influences from European space rock/krautrock of the early 70s. I've picked out a few covers to get us started, but our main focus is on originals and we're already putting several together. We should have some high quality demo tracks ready very shortly, but licensing for streaming covers (such as on Reverbnation) slows that process down.

 

And we're also covering Mark :L's Black Market Daydreams. It's perfect for us.

 

The previous band I was in, The Gonzo Symphonic, turned into an Alternative/New Wave band from mild prog roots. You can hear them on Reverbnation from the link in my sig below.

[GtrGeorge!]

MartinC I just visited this thread and read your well thought out post. Yes,I agree the genre plays a part. I see that in any town...like for a guy like me in NY. And also timing has played a big part. You mention playing corporate Flamenco type gigs. Sounds like you "got the last plane out". I think Corporate sponsors are the ONLY people with money these days for music. And they have no use for anti-establishment music (Rock for example,Punk,thrash etc) Conformity is the rule, so any music that goes against that is not likely to be welcome. Just stating what I see as the facts. But it's cool for you because you can play Flamenco and the audience doesn't really know the genre all that well,like you said. So its a weird time for selling music in anyway. So it's kinda restrictive in terms of producing originals,unless they are pretty much the same as covers. I am wondering what you meant when you said you saw more original work in SF than covers..you mean, playing for free? If that's the case..it doesn't count,for me. Because it's not work...you get payed to work. People playing for free are just joining the "gambling: with their time,imho. Your odds are better at wining LOTTO. So I am looking for some clarification, if you could. Excuse any hint of pessimism..if so, it's not directed at you...but I will admit it IS frustrating to spend years on making recordings, only to meet scores of people who smile and tell you how much music that stole last night on the internet. These are the same people you NEED to support your recordings, and live work. If I am formulating this ALL WRONG..please correct me. I would like to be mistaken and head off in a more constructive understanding.

[Pine Apple Slim]

I play upright bass for a local singer/songwriter genre is in the Alt Country/Americana/southern rock vein. The songs are good but the gigs are non existent. We were up to a full band w keys. All we can get is free stuff or very low paying. The keyboard player and lead guitarist quit so we are down to 3 pieces. The drummer went back to playing his tele so now we're elec guitar/acoustic, and upright. We've honed our set list down to what works in that format, thrown a few covers in. Hopefully that will open us up for a few low pay restaurant/small pub acoustic type things. You would think our music would be popular here in the land of the Alabama Shakes, Dbt, and Jason Isbell but no. Those folks are barely known here in their home area. It's new country or classic rock covers, and dance music covers for the ladies is all the bars want.

[Vito Corleone]

What gets lost sometimes is that, at the end of the day, this is still a business and unless you're producing a product that meets the demands of a marketplace, you're not going to make any money. People get caught up in the "I'm going to do my own thing and be an artist and damn conformity" thing which is great, but the reality is very few people are successful going that route. No one has EVER had much use for anti-establishment music, although the small handful of people who have had success doing this leads to false promises.

 

MartinC has had success with original Flamenco music because there is a market demand for what is essentially background music at corporate events and Flamenco can fit that niche. Jazz and new age players can do this too. They are able to fit their original music to a demand for music that already exists. Covers would work just as well. More power to the guys who can make their originals work in the same marketplace.

 

Otherwise it's about trying to build and create your own market. Demand for you as an artist and your music. Which is, and always has been, a much tougher sell. The more original you are, the tougher the sell.

 

This isn't any different than most other artistic endeavors. There's a demand for original works of painting and photographs as long as they fit into the markets that already exist. If what you produce looks nice in somebody's home or their business, you have a good chance to sell some artwork. If your work is a bunch of way out there, avant-garde, edgy stuff meant to be anti-establishment----it's going to be a much tougher sell. But yeah---the one in a million guy who breaks through is going to be the next Picasso and become world famous and rich.

 

Same for guys who do woodwork or design homes or whatever. Musicians have become more spoiled (if that's the right word) than other artists over the last few decades in believing that anything less that total non-conformity is a sellout. Fine to take that stance if one feels the need to do that. But to the degree it's about trying to make a decent living with your talents and skills? Yeah, you gotta go to the market at least as much as trying to make it come to you.

[Vito Corleone]

As far as selling recorded versions of your music goes? Well, yeah. That's a part of the industry that's completely in a state of near chaos right now. And the musicians themselves have near zero control over that.

 

I'd just remind people that musicians made livings for themselves before the invention of the phonograph and will continue to do so even if there's never another dime to be made from recorded music. Focus on those other avenues until the whole thing sorts itself out.

[Pine Apple Slim]

It's not like we're reinventing the wheel with our originals. It's basic 3 chord country rock for the most part with good lyrics and hooks. But the barflies only wanna hear what they know. Theron lies the catch.

[Vito Corleone]

It's not like we're reinventing the wheel with our originals. It's basic 3 chord country rock for the most part with good lyrics and hooks. But the barflies only wanna hear what they know. Theron lies the catch.

 

But that's nothing new, is it? The bar market has always been about playing songs people already know, unless it's the "original showcase" circuit which has pretty much always been a play-for-free deal.

 

I've never known of pop music formats to be money makers on an original level unless you can build a following to the point where people will pay a cover to see you and/or purchase your recordings. I've never known of venues or markets that will pay to have a band with no real following play their original pop/rock/country songs.

[Pine Apple Slim]

But that's nothing new' date=' is it? The bar market has always been about playing songs people already know, unless it's the "original showcase" circuit which has pretty much always been a play-for-free deal. I've never known of pop music formats to be money makers on an original level unless you can build a following to the point where people will pay a cover to see you and/or purchase your recordings. I've never known of venues or markets that will pay to have a band with no real following play their original pop/rock/country songs.[/quote'] No it's the same old catch 22. Hard to build a following with no place to play where people can hear you. 30 years ago there were a few dives mostly in the college towns where original bands could hone their chops and build a following. Those places are long gone in my area. Music just isn't as cool as it used to be. I keep harping to the songwriter he needs to find an agent, to at least go to bat for him and get him a few acoustic only shots at what few small Pubs and such as we have within a 100 mi or so.

[FormerlyBassred]

I can see both sides. With a rough scene and low-paying gigs or non-existent opportunities for original music, it is hard to get your stuff out there and build up a following. Also, there is little to no market for a bar/venue to host bands that might not have a following who will drink and spend money.

 

I've spent time in both worlds, and enjoyed the extra scratch when I was playing covers. I moved into this world knowing that I was shifting to an expensive hobby, and I have a day job, so I'm not looking to make it my life. I would love that, don't get me wrong... but when I was 19 and had a shot with a major label and a band member nonchalantly tossed those chances into the gutter I realized that it was not an easy road... I accept that I'm doing it for me, mostly, and that with luck, we bring good crowds and catch good breaks (our next show is opening for Cole Swindell... we've opened for Dierks Bentley, Lee Brice, Gary Allan, Machbox 20, Counting Crows and ZZ Top with no management and without even an EP that we are really proud of...)

 

I also do my own stuff and will likely self-fund an album of tunes that the band isn't interested in this year. That, I do for fun.

http://www.reverbnation.com/jonwolske

 

Just for shoots and giggles, go listen to some tunes and help bump up my rating!

 

[GtrGeorge!]

Guido61, I hear you loud and clear. But to add some details..I'm not playing (and have never played) covers that were markedly anti-establishment. I play pop and Rock. So why is it I play and write music in the style of the Beatles and can't find a room to play in?? Explain that. So please understand I am not a radically creative person...just doing a rock pop thing that Cheap Trick thought was good enough to record,,,but can't find a room to work in with originals. PS: Very thoughtful art analogy.

[GtrGeorge!]

PS Pine Apple Slim is in a similar fix. He's got good material in the right style and in the right local..but can't make a dime playing it.

[Vito Corleone]

Guess I didn't flesh out that part of my thoughts well enough before:

 

Playing pop (rock and country are 'pop' genres too, of course) originals puts people in an odd place. Because pop music, by definition, is songs that are popular. If you're playing for people who's tastes are what's on the radio, then they really only want to hear stuff they are already familiar with. Original musicians in those genres have always had to do the hard work of building crowds and followings and getting their songs known and hopefully landing a record deal so the record company can get it on the radio and do all that work for them.

 

And, like others have pointed out, the grass roots route of playing local clubs to build followings almost doesn't even exist anymore. I guess that's been replaced -- at least to some degree -- by the internet and social media, but people still seem to be figuring all that out.

 

Another point people seem to forget. (And one of the reasons the live music scene has declined, in my opinion) is that live original music scenes were built on selling the images of the bands and the musicians. The songs themselves came later. Whether it was The Ramones or The Bangles or Talking Heads or Motley Crue or Nirvana or whoever...these bands built local followings and scenes were created because people dug these bands and their images and the whole scene that surrounded them. To whatever degree people liked the songs themselves was secondary. It was rare that some faceless, imageless band became successful just because their songs were so damned good.

 

[GtrGeorge!]

Guido, I have to agree and disagree with you. On Pop Music: Yes, I see your point..and I agree that if you're playing pop music,you are right in a very densely populated market. But Scenes? I love culture and art..and I would say that scenes (cultural environments) exist first and groups of artists come out of it..then it expands and eventually collapses). The Beatles came out of hamburg and Liverpool. Pink Floyd, the UFO club. Talking heads out of CBGB and Mud club. There were many bands in each scene..the ones we know were best at adapting what they had in that scene and taking it higher (ie. visibilty in the marketplace. ) I am lucky enough to have been to those places and talked to many who personally knew the people..they all say the same. But back to 2014: I play pop and there have been a thousand challenges to getting it to pay. And I don't think (recording)labels are nearly as important now as they were 10 years ago..and 10 before that. I think the whole industry, as Butch Walker says "is F++ed"...it's a big meltdown and I just hope that art emerges on top in my lifetime. I am not foolish to think its automatic. It is driven by people first.

[Vito Corleone]

We're not disagreeing about the scenes. My point is that the popularity of the bands was about the image and the scene they thrived in, not about their songs. So the whole "but we write and play some good songs" thing is irrelevant. That's not what draws crowds to an originals band in the early stages of their popularity.

 

as far as 2014 goes? Yeah, it's f'd. It needs a complete rebirth. Something along the lines of the birth of rock in the 1950s. The whole paradigm needs to be redone. It'll happen eventually. In my lifetime? I'd like to live to see it, but I certainly won't be part of it. I'm 53. This is a young mans business. Especially in the pop fields. That train passed me by years ago. The meltdown is irrelevant in my case anyway. That's cool. But I hope the kids figure it out. I'm sure they will eventually.

[MartinC]

There never really has been much of a cover band scene in the city of SF proper. Out in the burbs, different story. As far as the type of gigs that I have done in the city that payed, I can count rock, R&B, blues, latin, salsa, and flamenco. As to the pay, in clubs, I've earned from 50.00 to 200.00 per man, with the 200. being very rare. Those numbers have not changed in decades. I've done a fair amount of concerts at major venues, usually opening for well known artists. Even opening for or supporting the biggest names, the money wasn't any better than playing a neighborhood bar.

 

If you want to make money, it's in the privates, be they parties for private individuals, weddings, or corporates. Those can pay 400-600 a man or more. Many times they are background gigs, but sometimes they have an audience that is as engaged as an audience at any concert. If you play like you are at a concert, sometimes people will react like they are at one. Other times, you just play the gig and cash the check. You have to have the mind set that either way, you are ok.

 

Solo work can also pay very well. I've earned as much as 700.00 for a private solo gig, with 500.00 being the average. Again, sometimes it's background, but I've also opened for well known acts as a solo. The fact that there weren't that many people who were doing what I was doing at the time I was doing it made all the difference. A great classical guitarist could not usually demand what I, as a pedestrian level flamenco player, could get, simply because of supply and demand. Authentic flamenco is still a mystery to most musicians, no matter their level. Same with audiences-they may dig the sound, but they really don't understand what's going on.

 

The more popular styles derived from flamenco, such as the gypsy kings or ottmar leibert, have attracted many musicians and the demand for that style remains fairly strong, both in clubs and at privates. Many of the people who play this style lack training in authentic flamenco, and people who are trained tend to look down on this simpler style, especially when performed by those folks. To my ears, it's easy to pick out the difference. The public, who knows?

 

In every city of a certain size, there is a traditional flamenco scene. Normally dancers run those gigs, as they can earn a living teaching classes and doing gigs. Guitarists get the gigs accompanying them, their classes, and also solo gigs. A guitarist working in this style has tremendous freedom to play his own material, within the strict confines of the rhythmic traditions. It's a tough gig to pull off that requires many years of specialized training. In NY, there is Pedro Cortes hijo. He's a great flamenco guitarist. Here in the bay area, we have Jason McGuire, an absolute monster musician, and many others.

 

As far as selling cd's, I was late to the party even in 2002. I did sell about 2k units, but now days, forget it. It is over.

 

 

 

 

 

 

MartinC I just visited this thread and read your well thought out post. Yes' date='I agree the genre plays a part. I see that in any town...like for a guy like me in NY. And also timing has played a big part. You mention playing corporate Flamenco type gigs. Sounds like you "got the last plane out". I think Corporate sponsors are the ONLY people with money these days for music. And they have no use for anti-establishment music (Rock for example,Punk,thrash etc) Conformity is the rule, so any music that goes against that is not likely to be welcome. Just stating what I see as the facts. But it's cool for you because you can play Flamenco and the audience doesn't really know the genre all that well,like you said. So its a weird time for selling music in anyway. So it's kinda restrictive in terms of producing originals,unless they are pretty much the same as covers. I am wondering what you meant when you said you saw more original work in SF than covers..you mean, playing for free? If that's the case..it doesn't count,for me. Because it's not work...you get payed to work. People playing for free are just joining the "gambling: with their time,imho. Your odds are better at wining LOTTO. So I am looking for some clarification, if you could. Excuse any hint of pessimism..if so, it's not directed at you...but I will admit it IS frustrating to spend years on making recordings, only to meet scores of people who smile and tell you how much music that stole last night on the internet. These are the same people you NEED to support your recordings, and live work. If I am formulating this ALL WRONG..please correct me. I would like to be mistaken and head off in a more constructive understanding.[/quote']

[Vito Corleone]

My advice to anyone trying to be somewhat successful playing originals (like on the level of a well-paid cover band) is to Think Locally. Most every town or region has its "flavor". Here in Northern Nevada, it's a certain type of old-style western. Kind of a Western Swing meets Cowboy Poetry deal, if I had to put a name on it. There's a couple of local acts who do mostly originals and are THE bands to hire for all the local western events. Any time there's a rodeo or a Virginia City Days or whatever...there they are. And they get paid pretty well most of the time. They'll never break national or worldwide, but they are the kings of the scene.

 

You see the same thing with certain Hawai'ian music bands in Hawai'i. Or beach music bands in beach towns. It works especially well in any tourist areas. Like the artist who paints local landscapes and sells them to the tourists, the local original musicians do the same thing.

[Brian Krashpad]

I'm in two original music bands. My main band is old school punk rock and roll similar to '76--'78 era bands, and has existed since 1996. Our website is http://www.CrashPadBand.com but it's done by our tiny label and is not very good. You can hear our entire current album on my soundcloud page:

 

I'm also in an experimental/performance art/humor collective called the Bill Perry Orchestra. I have known Bill for close to 30 years, but have only been involved with his band for the last couple. The BPO is celebrating its 30th Anniversary this year.

[GtrGeorge!]

guido, i think your suggestion only works if your in a desert island type of market. Im in NY and theres just so many flavors here..no one culture,really..and to many players in each genre. ..dammit!

[naazrael]

I play in an unsigned band called Rogue Stereo. It's definitely hard for original bands, right now, at least in San Diego. If you don't play radio friendly generic indie, or play electronic music, it's kind of hard to build up a following at all.

https://www.facebook.com/roguestereomusic