Members Vito Corleone Posted October 23, 2014 Members Share Posted October 23, 2014 they could have easily pasted in the exact same chorus lines in throughout the song. I hear this a lot and it bugs me. They obviously DO copy and paste a lot of vocals for choruses and hooks on pop records. I don't know whether it's done simply out of expediency or if the producers believe that repeating a vocal line EXACTLY creates a catchier, and therefore better-selling, track, but it's not something I personally enjoy hearing. I'm not going to rail against it much, however. I'll just choose to listen to different records. If the public agrees with me, then those records won't sell and producers will move on to doing something else. If they don't, they don't. Maybe I'm just getting old. I can live with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 The ethics and morals of studio recording practices aside, sometimes it's not about what we as musicians and engineers might prefer, but rather it's about what needs to be done; time, budget and expediency. I'm not a big fan of copying and pasting vocals from chorus to chorus. I want to hear some subtle (or not so subtle) differences in each chorus - especially for the lead vocalist. That's also true of drum and other instrumental parts. I'm not saying I haven't flown vocal parts over on choruses; generally I'd rather not but occasionally you have to - it can be a huge time saver when laying down big stacks of BGVs, and if the budget's tight, sometimes it's better to do a good job on one chorus and fly those BGV stacks to the other two than do a shoddy job on all three of them, or eat into the time you had reserved to do those lead vocal punch-ins on the verses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 24, 2014 Members Share Posted October 24, 2014 On most of the big hit records I'm thinking of that do this, it's hard for me to imagine it would be for budgetary reasons, but who knows. I think the example that has always bugged me the most is this track by the Black Eyed Peas. Pretty obviously they just copy and pasted the Fergie choruses. On one hand, I can see the producers saying "we've got the perfect take already, why mess with it?" Or on the other hand--with this type of song and artist, I can also see them thinking that a more "perfect" repitition is the effect they are going for. Like you, I personally prefer the subtleties that would be heard with various takes but, then again, I'm not exactly the target audience for this song either. [video=youtube_share;OrTyD7rjBpw] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted October 24, 2014 Share Posted October 24, 2014 If I have to fly parts around, I'll generally try to disguise it so it doesn't sound like an exact repeat of something that occurred earlier in the song. For example, if a Chorus repeats the same line three times with the same basic phrasing and melody, I might change the sequence in which the lines appear in the copied version of the Chorus, or I might grab the first part of the line from one instance and combine it with the second part of the line from the second instance and use that to make the third instance. If you have people on separate tracks, combining them in new ways, mixing the sources up and doing the edits across the tracks and combining things from individual tracks and takes (using line 1 from person A, combined with line three from person B, etc.) often results in what can seem like slightly "different" material on the copied / manufactured chorus.... but that's my personal preferences as a producer showing; many other producers might prefer that all the choruses be as alike as possible, and once they have one that they like, they'll fly it verbatim to the other Choruses. As you alluded to, it also depends on the genre. What would be acceptable or easily passed off in one genre might be totally unacceptable in another. You copied and pasted drum loops on a Hip Hop record? No foul... it's all good. You comped a Classical or Jazz solo? Blasphemy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 24, 2014 Members Share Posted October 24, 2014 Yep. Different genres and styles have different standards. The latest Adele, Carrie Underwood and Black Eyed Peas recordings were all produced to very high standards, albeit different standards due to the genres, styles and artists involved. I can't get behind saying this one or that one is somehow lowering the standards or ruining the industry simply because it isn't my personal preference. Especially when the degree of skill and attention to detail involved in the productions is obviously extraordinary. Having said all that, sloppy work is sloppy work and there's a lot of that going around as well. When Auto-tune is applied sloppily, that's as bad as a mis-use of compression or anything else. But when it's done with the skill and intent as it is has been applied in a couple of above clips? I really can't find much bad to say about it. Even IF it isn't to my taste or the choices I might make given the opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted October 25, 2014 Members Share Posted October 25, 2014 No, Ken, THIS is the best argument not to use Auto-Tune (from a different perspective, yet, coincidentally an Adele connection here...) There are places where the use of Auto-Tune are obvious (the vocal slides at 1:37 to 1:42)...Not to mention the fact that it's being used on a singer that really doesn't have a need for the damn thing. I mean...ARETHA of all people! The thing that sucks about Auto-Tune abuse is that to young Millennial-and-younger ears, people who don't use it will sound "out of tune" to their naive ears, and though they are oblivious to things like the concept of musical pitch, it will have a subconscious effect on whether they like a song or not...very sad. Don`t get me wrong, I love Aretha but I think this version lacks the pure emotion of Adele`s. Aretha has a tremendous voice so she`ll pretty much sound good on anything but there is an element to Adele`s version that reaches a level of tenderness and vulnerability that Aretha did not match here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted October 25, 2014 Members Share Posted October 25, 2014 Argument of the Day: No Auto-Tune. This is one of the most beautiful vocals I've ever heard. This is a live performance in-studio, an absolutely stunning performance. I'm guessing anyone who tried to slap Auto-Tune on this would get their asses kicked by everyone else in the room. Yes, Buckley`s Hallelujah is a great track but the reason AT wasn`t used is because they didn`t have it yet back then! Am I right or am I right? We seem to take the approach today in most modern music productions where one feels the need to use every tool in the box. Instead of letting the raw emotion speak, we feel we`re not doing our jobs until we`ve applied everything we have to a track. Again, allowing the artist`s own vulnerability shine makes this track for me. If this were done today, some silly beat would have been put into it and I`m sure a huge choir at the end just to kick it up a notch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 25, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 25, 2014 I don't know. Auto-Tune and this song were released around the same time, I believe, but you know, I'm posting these things more because simply because they are absolutely beautiful and stand on their own unadulterated, benefiting from as little mucking about as possible. And I'm hoping that if anyone hasn't heard them, they appreciate the beauty of these performances. That's pretty much it. And "Argument" isn't meant to be taken literally. It's more a celebration of something beautiful in and of itself, a celebration of something that sounds as gloriously human as possible, something that did not have some of that beauty taken away with unnecessary mucking about, such as was the case with the Aretha Franklin track that Elson posted, in my opinion. As always, YMMV. And that's okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 25, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 25, 2014 Any time Ken. If you'd like' date=' after you've made your best guesses, we could call up the source (unprocessed) take and let you hear that in context and in isolation too.[/quote'] Here are my comments: 1.) Julie Day always always always sounds so beautiful, so effortless. If I listen to this track any more, I think I am going to fall in love with her. 2.) As I thought, I can't hear any pitch correction. This is a beautiful recording of a beautiful voice and band. I must admit that I have no super powers, and am fallible and human. I'm okay with that. 3.) I'll make a couple of stupid guesses, and will do so publicly just because that makes it more fun, and really, I don't have a care in the world about whether I get this right or wrong. But I should mention that just listened to the track all the way through a second time, and I don't even think these guesses are on the mark either. Regardless, the first time I listened to the track through, I marked the following: ~ 2:38 ---- "how will I ever KNOW" (but upon 2nd and 3rd listens, didn't notice anything amiss) ~ 1:52 ---- "perfect start we conCURRED" (but upon 2nd or 3rd listens, not sure about this either...she's just singing it really breathy...and that's alright....) This is a gorgeous sounding track recorded beautifully, as is the case with all the Julie Day stuff I've ever heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted October 26, 2014 Members Share Posted October 26, 2014 I have no super powers, and am fallible and human. I'm okay with that. This is disturbing news!!! Gotham was counting on Afro Ken to battle the Joker! Now, what will they do?!? Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 26, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 26, 2014 This is disturbing news!!! Gotham was counting on Afro Ken to battle the Joker! Now, what will they do?!? Best, Geoff It's okay. The Joker doesn't use pitch correction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Geoff Grace Posted October 26, 2014 Members Share Posted October 26, 2014 But—not surprisingly—Mr. Freeze loves the Freeze Tracks feature. Best, Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted October 31, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 Here's what you get when AutoTune is part of your act (your sound/style) and you work without it. http://www.npr.org/event/music/359661053/t-pain-tiny-desk-concert?autoplay=true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 31, 2014 Members Share Posted October 31, 2014 Here's what you get when AutoTune is part of your act (your sound/style) and you work without it. Well, obviously that's what T-Pain gets. Not sure anyone else would get the same results without AutoTune, so I'm sure what your point is, exactly?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted October 31, 2014 Share Posted October 31, 2014 Thanks for the comments and kind words Ken. Unfortunately, none of the spots you mentioned utilized AT... You're right about Jules' breathiness - that's a big part of her style. I do appreciate you taking the time to listen and comment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted October 31, 2014 Members Share Posted October 31, 2014 Well, obviously that's what T-Pain gets. Not sure anyone else would get the same results without AutoTune, so I'm sure what your point is, exactly?? i`m not either... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted October 31, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted October 31, 2014 Well, obviously that's what T-Pain gets. Not sure anyone else would get the same results without AutoTune, so I'm sure what your point is, exactly?? I'm not exactly the expert on T-Pain around here, but apparently the "robot" effect from AutoTune is a regular part of his sound. In this video, he didn't have it and dit a bit of faking it. With what he's doing here, which is what he does, it wouldn't matter if he wasn't exactly on pitch, but the robot-like pitch jumps are part of his sound. I guess he wouldn't be T-Pain without that sound. It's a justification of sorts for using AutoTune that doesn't have anythihng to do with correcting an inability to sing on pitch. Imagine Bo Diddly or Roebuck Staples without tremolo - same idea, just a different tool that's sometimes abused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 31, 2014 Members Share Posted October 31, 2014 I'm not exactly the expert on T-Pain around here, but apparently the "robot" effect from AutoTune is a regular part of his sound. In this video, he didn't have it and dit a bit of faking it. With what he's doing here, which is what he does, it wouldn't matter if he wasn't exactly on pitch, but the robot-like pitch jumps are part of his sound. I guess he wouldn't be T-Pain without that sound. It's a justification of sorts for using AutoTune that doesn't have anythihng to do with correcting an inability to sing on pitch. Imagine Bo Diddly or Roebuck Staples without tremolo - same idea, just a different tool that's sometimes abused. That pretty much nails it, I think. T-Pain used it to gimmick proportions and had several big hits with that sound. Now that the gimmick has worn off and the hits have stopped coming, he appears to be trying to re-establish himself without the use of the gimmick. Whether he's successful or not remains to be seen, but he's far from the first person in the entertainment industry to travel that path. Sort of like the aging movie star with large breasts and too much makeup now trying to convince people she's a real actress. Maybe she is; maybe she isn't. Maybe it doesn't even matter at this point in her career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author MikeRivers Posted November 1, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted November 1, 2014 T-Pain used it to gimmick proportions and had several big hits with that sound. Now that the gimmick has worn off and the hits have stopped coming, he appears to be trying to re-establish himself without the use of the gimmick. I don't know if he's trying for a new non-robotic sound or not. In this song, I'm pretty sure I caught him doing kind of a half-step yodel in a few places like you'd get when slurring a note with AutoTune set for a very fast pitch change. This may have been a one-off show though. The NPR Tiny Desk concerts are really pretty much that, without any sound gear. Don't go out of your way to follow his career though, to see if he's changing direction. I'm sure he's doing just fine without us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 1, 2014 Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 I don't know if he's trying for a new non-robotic sound or not. In this song, I'm pretty sure I caught him doing kind of a half-step yodel in a few places like you'd get when slurring a note with AutoTune set for a very fast pitch change. Well, it's definitely part of what constitutes a "modern" sound right now. As I said earlier in this thread, I auditioned a young girl for my band who could that with her voice. We were all blown away; she thought it was no big deal. I guess it makes sense if kids are listening to those records and trying to imitate the singers they hear. I doubt she's the only girl in the world who can do that; I'd imagine we'll see a whole generation of kids who can. Just one more skill people train the muscles in their throat to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Beck Posted November 1, 2014 Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 You might as well let it go. It's quite apparent that he's not interested in doing that. He'd rather tell us how amazing his ears are and how ours are so inferior to his, or complain about methodology (what methodology??? - I open a multitrack session, note where AT was used, send the list to Craig, and Tim tells us what he thinks, and Craig confirms if he's right or not) or anything else to claim superiority without actually directly demonstrating it or teaching others how to listen better. IOW, he's not interested in helping you - just in impressing you. But talk's easy and cheap Tim. I gave you a fair and reasonable chance to display your auditory prowess, and if you'd like to pass on that, that's totally your decision. Just don't expect me to buy what you're trying to sell. That's not it at all... not even close. My thing is that Autotune is so obvious to me and so ubiquitous in pop music today that I'm trying to figure out how you can't hear it everywhere like I do. It boggles my mind! I expected most if not all of the seasoned recordists here to agree with me. I'm trying to make some sense of why you can't hear what I hear. Acclimation is my best guess. It makes sense to me. You simply have a different idea of how one should "Prove" the case. And then it starts getting personal, so where do we go there? At that point I just see this forum is going the way of a lot of others... fewer members, less tolerance for opposing views, group-think, unteachable, and so why even try? I don't think I could make my point any clearer when I say your idea and method to see if someone can detect pitch correction in a particular song is just plain silly to me. It's goofy when the examples are everywhere in pop music today. I do get frustrated with you guys. My formal education is not in music, but in psychology and statistics. I do know how to conduct a proper survey and know which are appropriate. In this case case an appropriate survey would be a poll. Can you hear pitch correction in popular music? That would be the question. The answer would simply be yes or no. Your impulse to throw a song up for people to analyze is just not the way a statistician would approach it given that the examples are so numerous everywhere you turn in pop music. But as I said before it's not an issue of me having superior hearing, but perhaps the fact that I have for the most part shunned a lot of the technology that you embrace I hear things differently. Because people are becoming acclimated to things like pitch correction since it's everywhere does not make them evil people, but I do think you and many others are losing a sensitivity that we desperately need to have in the recording industry. IMO recorded music is getting worse all the time. We're losing it. We're losing people who are not being replaced with new people who can fill their shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 1, 2014 Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 You've made a claim that you hear something as obvious and ubiquitous that you can't figure out how others can't hear it, but haven't so much as provided a single example of this taking place. It isn't about having a different idea of how to "prove" anything, but about that you haven't provided any options other than just to make broad claims that this phenomenon exists. For all anyone can tell, there are many people here who hear subtle uses of AutoTune BETTER than you do. But this will never be known because you've yet to provide even a single example of a subtle use where you hear it but are left with your mind boggled because others can't. Instead of trying to make sense of why others can't hear what you can, you need to first be sure that this actually happens. Doing so would go much further towards forum harmony than simply demanding tolerance. The question is not "can you hear pitch correction in popular music?" Because we all can. The question is "can you actually hear it when others do not or are you just making false claims you can not substantiate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted November 1, 2014 Author Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 So far, I'm the only one to attempt to listen to the track and post where I think I may have heard it. I am looking forward to eventually discovering where the pitch correction does occur, or if it has been applied to the track at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 1, 2014 Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 At first listen I thought I heard an artifact at around 0:30 with the word "Eyes" and then again at around 1.00 with the word "Fate". But then I listened again and wasn't sure. But I'll throw those out there as wild guesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ernest Buckley Posted November 1, 2014 Members Share Posted November 1, 2014 Carrie's got too much makeup. I don't think that's all her own natural hair color and curls either. To be fair, the girl can sing, I just used that video because it reminded me of some comments made on this thread. In the case of this song, AT is being used strictly as an effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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