powered speaker advice

[jwlussow]

 

Put my MR based system with a couple of matching subs up against a PRX or even an SRX system tuned to perfection and what would happen? Everyone in this forum would know the difference, but MR is still JBL (admittedly entry level) gear, and I doubt that most audiences would really hear it as pronounced as they would, say with utter crap verses very good gear.

 

 

If you are saying that, for example, a properly tuned JRX system will sound the same as a properly tuned SRX system to the average Joe I still say you better stop smoking that stuff. They might not know the specifics of SPLs, frequency ranges, crossover points or anything technical, but I guarantee that everyone of those people will notice a huge difference in the sound. I would be completely surprised if a single person didn't notice the difference between JRX and SRX.

 

I know where you and others are coming from because I believed the exact same thing 25 years ago. I have learned through personal experience that what I believed then was not as true as I thought it was. Someday you will understand this too. All I am saying is that over the years my opinion has changed. Along with that opinion change, my wallet has also become fatter (along with other parts). All I hope to do is open some closed minds to what I experienced. Not everybody will have the same experience but 25 years ago I would never even contemplate for a second that someday I would own a $15,000 system. I also never realized that I can personally take home more than $500 for a 90 minute set. 25 years ago the whole band didn't make that much for a 4 hour night. In my case, we started getting booked into better clubs and started making better money when we started investing in better gear. YMMV.

[abzurd]

So, you're saying musicians with better gear are better musicians? Please elaborate...

 

I'll hijack.... Not better musicians per se, but a better product? ABSOLUTELY! Musicianship is only part of it.

[Axisplayer]

Chirovette, when I started my little sound company almost 10 years ago now (after I retired from being a performing local musician) I started to hang out on the LAB (the other sound board.) It wasn't the easy going friendly place that it or Harmony Central is now. It was a bunch of "old sound man" types that would put you in your place in a minute for anything you said. They were touring, hard core, high level, well heeled sound guys that worked for bands most cover bands actually cover. I felt out of place because I wanted to have really nice gear, but I had an entry level system. It wasn't junk but it wasn't great. The lowest pair of EAWs you could buy (FR-129z,) a first version Mixwiz, a handful of RMX amps, and a pair of LS808 subs. It wasn't crap, but these guys were using Nexo, and Meyer, etc. They were doing arenas and real tours. I was very out in left field, but I read, learned, and listened.

 

One post I made, I honestly told them that I wished I had better gear, but I didn't have any way to do it. It was what I could afford then. My wife had been sick, really sick, and I had a pile of medical bills. I had run up serious, close to bankruptcy levels of debt that I had to incur with no option to say no. You have to keep your family well. The gear was left overs from playing previously. I told them I knew it was nothing big time, but for a few hours on the weekend, I could get away from all the really bad things happening in my life. I could forget the mountain of debt, the illness, and for a brief time actually enjoy being out and doing something that brought me a smile.

 

Marty McCann (you can look him up to see who he is) wrote back and told me that without little guys like me, there would be no music market or scene, and to enjoy what I had as much as I could without regret. Another sound guy wrote me a private email that ended with this "It doesn't really matter what you own as much as what you can do with it. It is the cook that makes the soup." I never forgot any of it.

 

That marriage ended in divorce after 14 years. My life got better, the bills got paid, things turned around slowly. I live an entirely different life now. I do try to remember what it was like to not have better, and not have any hope of EVER having better. You take what you have, make sure it works, take care of it, learn to get everything out of it that it is capable of doing, and you get on with life. What anyone else thinks of the gear doesn't mean anything. If you enjoy it, and the night is fun, does it really matter? NO. At some level, you become a legitimate business and things do begin to matter, but when you are small change playing for a good time, a night out, and a few dollars in your pocket, ignore the negatives, enjoy the night, and go home smiling. Nothing any of us says should, or really does, matter.

 

When it is time for you to buy GOOD stuff, serious gear, you will know it. For some, that time never comes, and that is fine. They have found their level. For others, it is a non-stop race to acquire. And for most, it is somewhere in the middle, where the point of diminishing returns, ROI, available funds, and enjoyment intersect. If you know where that point is for you, and you are there, then you have run the race. Enjoy it.

[jwlussow]

So, you're saying musicians with better gear are better musicians? Please elaborate...

 

??? Where did you get that?

 

Sounds more like the musician doesn't care about the sound so either does the crowd. I personally never knew a crowd that didn't care. They might not say anything but that doesn't mean they don't care. Has nothing at all to do with musicianship.

 

Having bands that don't care and believe the crowd doesn't care allows those of us who do care to sound even better and make even more money. Ever see Ed Wood? Great analogies from his life are brought out in that movie. He believed that people didn't care that the cardboard headstones were moving as someone walked by and no one would notice that other elements were falling during shots. Guess what, people did notice.

[abzurd]

Well said Axisplayer.

[Axisplayer]

Thanks Abzurd.

[donkey 12]

If you shop on my local craigslist, you can pay as much for used garbage (Behringer, Harbinger, etc.) as you can for good gear. I have never understood why people with this low end gear sometimes ask so much for it. I see prices all of the time well above what you can buy the stuff for brand new. I know most if not all of it does not sell because some of it has been listed for what seems like forever. Sorry for the diversion, but in case it is any consolation, I feel much better having gotten this off my chest...

[lifeloverwg]

So, you're saying musicians with better gear are better musicians? Please elaborate...

 

Uh, no. The OP basically said the crowds he plays for don't care what gear he plays through or what it sounds like. I'm suggesting that perhaps part of the reason they don't care is because he doesn't. If his real problem is not enough talent, then he's right, it doesn't matter what he plays through.....

[musicmanmu]

 

??? Where did you get that? Sounds more like the musician doesn't care about the sound so either does the crowd. I personally never knew a crowd that didn't care. They might not say anything but that doesn't mean they don't care. Has nothing at all to do with musicianship. Having bands that don't care and believe the crowd doesn't care allows those of us who do care to sound even better and make even more money. Ever see Ed Wood? Great analogies from his life are brought out in that movie. He believed that people didn't care that the cardboard headstones were moving as someone walked by and no one would notice that other elements were falling during shots. Guess what, people did notice.

 

 

That was how I interpreted it. Maybe that wasn't what she meant, but it at least implied as such.

I don't want to argue about {censored} gear vs. the finest gear around. All I'm trying to say is that moderately priced gear sounds pretty good and most audiences wouldn't know the difference between that and something much more expensive, particularly when you're talking about a small system for live performances.

[jwlussow]

I still know people that consider Behringer high end gear since it is German, like Mercedes and BMW. I don't even try to argue with them. They always seem amazed at the Behringer stuff on sale all over the place. I used to let them know that those were full prices, not sale prices but they never quite got it. Kustom and Nady were also considered good because people recognized the name...

[jwlussow]

 

That was how I interpreted it. Maybe that wasn't what she meant, but it at least implied as such. I don't want to argue about {censored} gear vs. the finest gear around. All I'm trying to say is that moderately priced gear sounds pretty good and most audiences wouldn't know the difference between that and something much more expensive, particularly when you're talking about a small system for live performances.

 

 

We never even mentioned the finest gear around. This discussion has been between low end and mid, at best. I still say that ALL audiences hear the difference. The only way you will believe me is to do a show with better gear and see how many people, regulars that have seen you a lot, will come up and compliment the sound. That is the only way we knew they were paying attention. They ALL know the difference whether you want to admit it or not.

[Axisplayer]

Take a boom box and put it beside your home stereo system. Play the same CD on each. Could you hear a difference? I thought so....

 

Whether the difference matters is a subjective opinion since your crowd may not care, but the difference is objective reality since they don't sound the same. Some people only care enough about music to own a boom box so they can have it running while they vacuum the house, while others truly listen to the music. You have to decide whether your crowd is vacuuming or listening.

[musicmanmu]

 

Uh, no. The OP basically said the crowds he plays for don't care what gear he plays through or what it sounds like. I'm suggesting that perhaps part of the reason they don't care is because he doesn't. If his real problem is not enough talent, then he's right, it doesn't matter what he plays through.....

 

 

Ok, no worries. Sorry for misinterpreting.

 

I imagine the type of crowd counts for something. I play mostly bars, restaurants with bars...pretty much anyplace the sells booze. Although I have done many private functions, upscale events and weddings, and my gear, while not the cheapest stuff out there, did the job fine with no complaints, and it's still half the price of a lot of the models everyone on here touts. I don't play music for a living anymore, and perhaps that's part of why I have this mindset. If I did this day in and day out for a living, I'd probably be saving for much higher quality gear.

[musicmanmu]

 

We never even mentioned the finest gear around. This discussion has been between low end and mid, at best. I still say that ALL audiences hear the difference. The only way you will believe me is to do a show with better gear and see how many people, regulars that have seen you a lot, will come up and compliment the sound. That is the only way we knew they were paying attention. They ALL know the difference whether you want to admit it or not.

 

 

Fair point. I'll say then "gear that's twice the price of what I would consider good." And like I said earlier, I know if I did such a test I'd be pining for nicer stuff! That's why I'll just be content with what I have.

 

Ironically, I can't think of any similar acts in my area who have any better gear than I have - mostly worse.

[jwlussow]

Then you are ahead of the game. If your sound is a little less harsh or a little smoother than your competition then you are better off than they are. I realize every market is different but I honestly believe all crowds care about sound quality. This is an expensive hobby for sure.

 

I'd still like the chance to load up my gear to run sound for one of the "people don't care about the sound" or the "we haven't had any complaints" bands. I would really like to see if the crowd does notice the difference and actually goes out of their way to compliment the band after using a better system. That might be an interesting experiment on a few fronts.

[Reson8tor]

6 Grand is an acceptable budget for a good, quality, basic setup. (2 subs + 2 tops). That price point is about the "sweet spot" in terms of Price v. Performance. Getting better performance, requires an even more costly monetary investment.

That's also similar to the price range of some electric guitar + amp combinations I see around here in bar bands, and that's just for one player in the band. But spend that kind of money on the PA? Heaven forbid!

Instead, we get the argument that the audience "doesn't care about sound quality." Except of course, for that fancy guitar, keyboard rig, or drum set that you're playing.

[musicmanmu]

Then you are ahead of the game. If your sound is a little less harsh or a little smoother than your competition then you are better off than they are. I realize every market is different but I honestly believe all crowds care about sound quality. This is an expensive hobby for sure. I'd still like the chance to load up my gear to run sound for one of the "people don't care about the sound" or the "we haven't had any complaints" bands. I would really like to see if the crowd does notice the difference and actually goes out of their way to compliment the band after using a better system. That might be an interesting experiment on a few fronts.

 

You're more than welcome to come down here and I'll happily be your guinea pig!

[ChiroVette]

 

We never even mentioned the finest gear around. This discussion has been between low end and mid, at best.

 

 

Not everyone is talking in those extremes. YOU ARE. I am talking about lower mid end (for lack of a better word) compared to regular mid end gear. This is where we disagree.

[abzurd]

A bit of a sidebar, but same idea, just with a venue and installed sound. Last week I went to see my favorite band, ALO (Animal Liberation Orchestra), in downtown Indianapolis at a place called The Rathskeller. It was an outdoor beer-garden set up with a smallish stage and room for maybe a thousand or so people if you packed it. I noticed they had a line array behind a nice scrim with the venue logo on it. I went up and looked to see what it was and it was 4 boxes on each side of EV XLE line array. At roughly $3000 per box that means this place had $24,000 in passive mains. The subs were just a double 18" EV QRx on each side. They could be outrun for sure, but the location of the venue made it not wise to go heavy on the low end anyway, but I digress. They had 2 guys running sound both wearing a venue logo'd shirt so I assume they worked for the venue but don't really know.

 

The point is the sound was very good. I sure as heck noticed. The week prior I was at a Ben Folds concert with just Ben and his piano at a venue that maybe held 3,000 people. The sound was atrocious and I have the RTA print screen to back it up. He put on a heck of a show, but it was hamstrung by stinky sound and my wife and I were disappointed. Literally 1 vocal mic and what was probably a couple of piano mics. That's it. How could they get it so wrong. That said, I will concede that nobody around me noticed.

 

Anyway, this doesn't do the band or the sound justice, but here's a song I shot with my iPhone early in the concert.

 

[video=youtube;G-nmZKlCK6Y]

[Randyman]

Pretty nice video for an iphone! Thanks for the share Axisplayer- after all the philosophizing and advocating this was more to the point.

 

After 4 pages and very few real suggestions as per what the poster was asking, here's a few thoughts of my own.

1. Many of the lower priced systems are "decent" at low to mid volumes.

2. If you know what to look for when buying used, you can get higher quality for a lot less money, so suggestions along those lines would probably be the most helpful

3. There are specials, like the M-Audio 12" that MF was blowing out for $150 (normally selling for $400) that might be perfect for the OP

4. Like someone else said, having even just 1 decent speaker, like the RCF 310 or 312a, might be enough

5. Not all lower end gear is the same- suggestions on lower end gear that's reliable and sounds half way decent at moderate volume is something that alot of folks on this forum have experience with

 

$3600/year is no fun!

[modulusman]

ChiroVette you are talking about Greatful Dead bands. Everything sounds great when you are on acid or mushrooms.

[agedhorse]

Thanks for your permission to be substandard

 

 

That's not what I said... don't twist my words.

 

What I said was that if you and your audience don't care, then there really is no reason to spend any more money than you have to.

 

In my case, and the case of some others here, the audience does care, especially if they are ponying up some real money for tickets. The artists also care because it helps them present their material in the best way possible for their audience. Perhaps their expectations are higher than a casual bar audience who paid no (or nomonal) cover charge?

[OneEng]

I play in a blues duo and mostly do small venues at a conversational sound level. Our little PA has handled this so far. We are getting booked in some rowdier venues and are considering a pair of powered speaks . We make almost nothing at these dives so we are looking at cheap. Peavey PR15P, Behringer b215d. I use a 4 channel mixer with mics direct and guitar through a POD. Any ideas appreciated. Oldude:cool:

 

In all honesty, for the same money as a pair of either of these speakers, I would suggest a SINGLE Yamaha DXR15. It will run circles around either the PR15P or the B215D and will sound way better doing it.

 

Later, if you decide you want more power than this, you could get a 2nd DXR15 and hold your own even in a larger club (for blues duo work).

 

Go give them a listen against the speakers you are thinking about at your local guitar center and you will see what I mean.

 

@abzurd,

 

That was pretty good sounding even through a crappy iPhone microphone! It must have been very good in person

[agedhorse]

In all honesty, for the same money as a pair of either of these speakers, I would suggest a SINGLE Yamaha DXR15. It will run circles around either the PR15P or the B215D and will sound way better doing it. Later, if you decide you want more power than this, you could get a 2nd DXR15 and hold your own even in a larger club (for blues duo work). Go give them a listen against the speakers you are thinking about at your local guitar center and you will see what I mean.

 

 

Another good suggestion.

[Al Poulin]

+1 on the Yamaha DXR15. Simply my favorite powered 15'' cabinet in its price range. Nice, deep full sound AND crisp detailed highs - and only 50lbs. Quite simply a very hi-fi sounding box with a fantastic mixer section and plenty of power + processing to get loud and sound great doing it. It outperforms the Behringers and Peavey PRs in every way.

 

Al