CAKEWALK SONAR 7 - NOW WITH CONCLUSIONS!

[tarsier]

Hey, here's an idea: Why doesn't Cakewalk add a world-class sampler to Sonar 8 by offering E-Mu something for the Emulator X2? Just a thought. Meanwhile, we have DropZone, which is a basic sample playback instrument.

 

DropZone is far more than a basic sample playback instrument. Its power comes from the SFZ format. Do you want a different sample on each key with a different sample for each velocity with all sorts of filters, keyswitching, and bank seletion? DropZone can do it with an SFZ file.

 

The problem is that all the power is hidden in the SFZ text file and only accessible by editing that file--which DropZone, Dimension LE and others don't let you do. So the power goes to waste.

 

Any chance you could explore the SFZ format in more detail in this review?

[flatfinger]

Tarsier,
The info your wanting is in a book by Simon Cann called"cakewalk Synths, from preset user to power user " ( name may not be exact)

It goes into great detail on how to get the most from SFZ( you may Already know this , but I put it up for others out there who may benefit)

[Anderton]

Here's an excellent and comprehensive reference on SFZ files:

 

http://www.cakewalk.com/DevXchange/sfz.asp

[Anderton]

Also, in the Sonar 6 PE Pro Review, I gave a brief tutorial on using the SFZ format to create custom drum kits for Session Drummer 2, which starts on the following page:

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1438357&page=6

[aleeann]

Thanks for a wonderful write up. Very insightful and swayed me back over to Sonar for future production.

As I'm going through many of the capabilities of Sonar, particularly midi implementation, I've stumbled upon an issue that seems odd to be overlooked by Cakewalk...the ability to have Sonar "remember" your specific controller assignments made within the Synth Rack view after assigning controls through remote control/learn. I recently made over 15 midi assignments using my hardware controller within Synth Rack, then saved the project, came back the next day, opened the project and Sonar didn't save or "remember" any of the knob or slider assignments I made.

Am I missing something here? With Reason, Live, Logic, etc. this just happens automatically. I know a little about ACT, but feel it's too clunky at this point and only interrupts my creativity.

Here's a workaround found on the web, but doesn't really address what my end needs would be.

"Here's the way around it: don't use the Synth Rack. You'll have to right-click/load the synth into the FX Bin of an audio track. Then point the output of a MIDI track to that (synth) audio track. (I'm using 6.2.0 here).

Next to "Display" at the bottom of the Track Inspector (the three-arrow Module Options -> Fx), check "Show Assignable Controls". Then do all of your Remote Control assignments (and re-assignments) from the exposed 'widgets' now visble in the Track Inspector. "

I'm curious if anyone else has encountered this or maybe I'm overlooking something.
Thanks!

[ducatibruce]

My one complaint involves patch storage and organization, which I find highly confusing. For example, the DropZone content (including multisamples) is located in the DropZone folder in the VSTplugins folder. Fair enough. But if you want to deposit some custom Rapture patches for Rapture LE to read, I found content for Rapture LE in Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Cakewalk\Rapture LE\Programs. But the Multisamples it reads from go in Program Files\Cakewalk\Rapture LE\Multisamples-and if you have Rapture installed, its multisamples go elsewhereWhen I created some patches for Rapture, I couldn't figure out where to put them so they'd show up in both the Rapture LE and Rapture browsers (answer: you can't get them to show up in both places, or at least I don't think you can, unless you put the programs in two places where both Rapture LE and Rapture can see them). Documentation for the instruments is scattered around as well. From what I understand part of this patch chaos is Windows-related, in order to work with Vista. Still, there's gotta be a better way to organize patches and multisamples for these excellent instruments. Does anyone have a solution? Or can someone from Cakewalk explain the logic behind where different instruments store their patches?

 

 

The Project5 wikii contains this entry which details default file location & the registry entry to modify to relocate multisample folders here http://p5.sonarama.com/p5/index.php/ExpressionEngine_Multisample_Relocation

[Anderton]

Thanks very much for the info, I'm glad there's a workaround but it seems awkward to have to hack the registry to do something as simple as point the instrument to a particular set of samples. Sonar itself lets you specify file paths for pretty much everything; I'd like to see the instruments have similar options.

[garrigus]

 

Am I missing something here? With Reason, Live, Logic, etc. this just happens automatically. I know a little about ACT, but feel it's too clunky at this point and only interrupts my creativity.

 

 

When you insert the soft synth using the Insert > Soft Synths menu, did you put a checkmark next to the option Recall Assignable Controls in the Insert Soft Synth Options dialog box?

 

Also, when you save and close the file, make sure you keep the Synth Rack view open. That way it will appear when you open the project again. I just tried it and if you don't keep the Synth Rack open, it loses the assignment values (must be a bug), but if you keep it open then the values stay.

 

Scott

 

--

Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar 7 Power & Sound Forge 8 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/

 

Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free Absynth 3 or Kontakt 2 DVD Tutorial, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

 

Publisher of NewTechReview - free consumer technology newsletter. Win a free WWF Slam Cam digital camera, go to: http://www.newtechreview.com/newtechreview/

[ross g]

ok, here's a question regarding the External Insert: i haven't tried it with an actual external audio processoer yet, but i was looking it over last night and i couldn't figure out how to get a stereo return (i was getting a stereo send) using an Emu 1820/Patch Mix...also: do you see any pros/cons to using Sonar's External Insert over setting up an external insert in Patch Mix?

btw: i like the idea of X2 being included/integrated with Sonar...

[AW - Cakewalk]

Every Pro Review has a different gestalt, but this one puzzles me a bit. We have over 36,000 page views, which means a lot of people are reading this review...yet there are very few questions or comments. I haven't seen Alex from Cakewalk poke his head in here for some time, either. Maybe this means I'm doing such a wonderful job no one feels the need to ask any questions, and the lack of comments simply means that everyone agrees with me. But this is in the internet! You're supposed to be making suggestions about what should be in future versions, telling me what I don't "get," and describing some of your own experiences. As long as the page views keep increasing steadily, I'll keep posting but please, if you have anything to say, don't be shy! We'll be wrapping this up soon as we delve into the remaining new features in Sonar 7, and then we'll present some conclusions.

I try not to get in the way. I believe you're doing an excellent job explaining the in's and out's of SONAR 7.

[aleeann]

When you insert the soft synth using the Insert > Soft Synths menu, did you put a checkmark next to the option Recall Assignable Controls in the Insert Soft Synth Options dialog box? Also, when you save and close the file, make sure you keep the Synth Rack view open. That way it will appear when you open the project again. I just tried it and if you don't keep the Synth Rack open, it loses the assignment values (must be a bug), but if you keep it open then the values stay. Scott -- Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar 7 Power & Sound Forge 8 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/ Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free Absynth 3 or Kontakt 2 DVD Tutorial, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/ Publisher of NewTechReview - free consumer technology newsletter. Win a free WWF Slam Cam digital camera, go to: http://www.newtechreview.com/newtechreview/

 

 

Thanks Scott - yes, I have the Recall Assignable Controls check box checked. Even after saving and reopening it remains checked.

 

The issue really isn't recalling the actual controls within the Synth Rack, but rather recalling the controls as they are mapped to the particular knobs on a hardware controller. After saving, then reopening, all of those routings to the physical knobs, sliders, etc. are lost and you have to go through the entire process again and every time after.

 

Is this a bug? I'm not a programmer, but maybe it's a simple fix?

 

a

[garrigus]

The issue really isn't recalling the actual controls within the Synth Rack, but rather recalling the controls as they are mapped to the particular knobs on a hardware controller. After saving, then reopening, all of those routings to the physical knobs, sliders, etc. are lost and you have to go through the entire process again and every time after. Is this a bug? I'm not a programmer, but maybe it's a simple fix? a

 

 

Oh, okay... I didn't realize this was a hardware controller issue. How exactly are you making the assignments?

 

Scott

 

--

Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar 7 Power & Sound Forge 8 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/

 

Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free Absynth 3 or Kontakt 2 DVD Tutorial, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

 

Publisher of NewTechReview - free consumer technology newsletter. Win a free WWF Slam Cam digital camera, go to: http://www.newtechreview.com/newtechreview/

[aleeann]

Oh, okay... I didn't realize this was a hardware controller issue. How exactly are you making the assignments? Scott -- Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar 7 Power & Sound Forge 8 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/ Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free Absynth 3 or Kontakt 2 DVD Tutorial, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/ Publisher of NewTechReview - free consumer technology newsletter. Win a free WWF Slam Cam digital camera, go to: http://www.newtechreview.com/newtechreview/

No worries.

I am making the assignments within the synth rack, creating controllers in the specific VST GUI, then doing a learn for each hardware controller. It works like a charm and I love being able to set-up all of my controllers like this. I save the project, then reopen and all of the VST controllers are there, however, the routing to the hardware is gone and moving the physical knob on the respective controller does nothing. The path from the controller within the GUI to the hardware control surface is lost.

BTW, I ordered your book and it should arrive tomorrow. Looking forward to diving into it!

[garrigus]

Thanks very much! I hope you enjoy the book.

 

So you're right-clicking on the controller knobs in the Synth Rack view and using the Remote Control feature to make hardware control assignments?

 

Scott

 

--

Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar 7 Power & Sound Forge 8 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/

 

Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free Absynth 3 or Kontakt 2 DVD Tutorial, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

 

Publisher of NewTechReview - free consumer technology newsletter. Win a free WWF Slam Cam digital camera, go to: http://www.newtechreview.com/newtechreview/

[aleeann]

Thanks very much! I hope you enjoy the book. So you're right-clicking on the controller knobs in the Synth Rack view and using the Remote Control feature to make hardware control assignments? Scott

 

 

Yes, indeed.

[garrigus]

Ah, ha... okay, well if the assignments are not being saved, then you may have found a bug. You should report that to Cakewalk when you have a chance.

 

In the meantime, ACT has pretty much replaced that older method for assigning hardware controllers. It's not too difficult to use. It's just the initial setup that can be a little confusing. After that, you make controller assignments in a similar manner by using ACT Learn. Turn it on, mouse over some controls then move some hardware controls (in the same order you want them assigned), turn ACT Learn off and confirm the assignments when Sonar asks. That's it. There's a section in my book about ACT so you might want to take a look at that and see if it helps to get you going with it.

 

Scott

 

--

Scott R. Garrigus - Author of the Cakewalk Sonar and Sony Sound Forge Power book series. Get Sonar 7 Power & Sound Forge 8 Power - Today! Go to: http://www.garrigus.com/

 

Publisher of DigiFreq - free music technology newsletter. Win a free Absynth 3 or Kontakt 2 DVD Tutorial, go to: http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

 

Publisher of NewTechReview - free consumer technology newsletter. Win a free WWF Slam Cam digital camera, go to: http://www.newtechreview.com/newtechreview/

[Anderton]

There's also quite a bit about using ACT in the Sonar 6 pro review...more of a tutorial about ACT than a review, actually. I agree with Scott that once you get it figured out, it's smooth sailing. It just takes a while to figure it out

[aleeann]

Thanks guys!

I'll "play" with ACT some more and I've already reported this possible bug to Cakewalk.

I'll let you know if I hear anything back on this.

Best,
a

[ross g]

ok, here's a question regarding the External Insert: i haven't tried it with an actual external audio processoer yet, but i was looking it over last night and i couldn't figure out how to get a stereo return (i was getting a stereo send) using an Emu 1820/Patch Mix...also: do you see any pros/cons to using Sonar's External Insert over setting up an external insert in Patch Mix? btw: i like the idea of X2 being included/integrated with Sonar...

 

 

 

bumping myself here....

[Anderton]

Funny you should mention the E-Mu 1820, because I used an 1820m to test Sonar's external output feature. IIRC I sent the outs via dock outs 2 or 3, and returned via the A line and B line ins or dock ins 1...I didn't take notes because it was all pretty painless. You just want to make sure that: 1) you're sending through outs you're not using for anything else, 2) you're receiving through ins you're not using for anything else, and 3) you have the corresponding drivers enabled in Sonar.

 

As to pros/cons, the Sonar External Insert pings for delay and compensates. I don't know if the 1820m does this or not, but I don't think so.

 

Hope this helps!

[mhaigh]

hi Craig
great thread as usual. just a couple of things on soundcards - echo have perfectly usable vista x64 drivers. maybe worth a look. of more interest is their WaveRT drivers for the 3g series pci cards. although there have been some issues with sonar (see the CW forums) that echo are currently working to fix. however several forumites have seen an improvement in ASIO function in vista using this.
the main problem with WaveRT is that it does not support USB or Firewire devices, only PCI/PCIe/x. which makes it useless for many people.

finally, did you apply the intel multi-core patch which made such a big difference to latency in WDM mode?

thanks
mark

[ross g]

Funny you should mention the E-Mu 1820, because I used an 1820m to test Sonar's external output feature. IIRC I sent the outs via dock outs 2 or 3, and returned via the A line and B line ins or dock ins 1...I didn't take notes because it was all pretty painless. You just want to make sure that: 1) you're sending through outs you're not using for anything else, 2) you're receiving through ins you're not using for anything else, and 3) you have the corresponding drivers enabled in Sonar. As to pros/cons, the Sonar External Insert pings for delay and compensates. I don't know if the 1820m does this or not, but I don't think so. Hope this helps!

 

 

think i got it figured out, i had to set up the correct ASIO paths in Patchmix...

 

as far as delay compensation, i was under the impression the Patchmix app would provide "zero latency" with an external insert and therefor need no "pinging"...i'll test it out and post results when i get a chance...regardless, i 'm guessing once set up correctly, the Ext Ins in Sonar 7 would end up being more convienient anyway...

[ChristopherMo]

Why doesn't Cakewalk add a world-class sampler to Sonar 8 by offering E-Mu something for the Emulator X2?

 

 

Because (IMHExperience) Sonar and X2 don't get along too well. Sonar frequently suffers the White Screen of Sloth when I load X2, and sometimes just doesn't make it, forcing me to "kill app" or even to reboot. Then loading one of E-MUs copy-protected (C-Dilla) libraries is the next hurdle. I actively avoid using X2 with Sonar, unless it's the only way to achieve something.

 

In fairness, I have heard no-one else complaining about this, although many users seem to have problems with Proteus X2, which I presume shares a lot of code with Emulator X2.

 

Sorry to respond so late to your post!

[Anderton]

hi Craig great thread as usual. just a couple of things on soundcards - echo have perfectly usable vista x64 drivers. maybe worth a look. of more interest is their WaveRT drivers for the 3g series pci cards. although there have been some issues with sonar (see the CW forums) that echo are currently working to fix. however several forumites have seen an improvement in ASIO function in vista using this. the main problem with WaveRT is that it does not support USB or Firewire devices, only PCI/PCIe/x. which makes it useless for many people.

 

 

Thanks very much for the info, I wasn't aware of the "no USB/Firewire" with WaveRT. Although after doing several pro reviews on Firewire interfaces, I'm beginning to think PCI cards are a better choice...

 

 

finally, did you apply the intel multi-core patch which made such a big difference to latency in WDM mode? thanks mark

 

 

No I haven't, but I think it's likely that PC Audio Labs already applied it unless it just came out within the past couple months. Do you know where to find the patch, and also, how to tell if it's installed on my machine?

 

Thanks again.

[Anderton]

As far as delay compensation, i was under the impression the Patchmix app would provide "zero latency" with an external insert and therefor need no "pinging"...i'll test it out and post results when i get a chance...regardless, i 'm guessing once set up correctly, the Ext Ins in Sonar 7 would end up being more convienient anyway...

 

 

I'd be interested in those results. I would think there might not be additional latency, but I would think there would be the latency of going through the interface and any delays caused by A/D-D/A conversion if the external effect is digital with analog I/O.