CAKEWALK SONAR 7 - NOW WITH CONCLUSIONS!

[Anderton]

One thing you can't do with the Step Sequencer is "lasso" a bunch of notes, then move them around-either to a different row, or different time within the same row. This could be very useful if you came up with a decent pattern with the Step Sequencer, but upon (for example) overdubbing additional parts, you decided you want to retain some of the Step Sequencer part but do a serious overhaul to the rest. Here's an easy way to do it:

 

1. Select the Step Sequencer clip and go Edit > Bounce to Clip. This converts the Step Sequencer clip into a standard MIDI clip.

2. Open the clip in the Piano Roll view, and edit away.

3. Close the Piano Roll view.

4. Right-click on the clip and select "Convert MIDI Clip(s) to Step Sequencer."

5. Now the Step Sequencer will reflect the edits you made.

 

The only thing that seems a bit odd is that when you convert back to a Step Sequence, the order of notes is reversed in the rows-low notes are on the top, high ones on the bottom. Then again, you can reorder them but I'd prefer if the notes stayed in the same places they were originally.

[BuleriaChk]

Hi, Craig,

Thanks much for your response; I've tried everything! (And it crashes in Live 6 also). Tried it again (loading as a sfx, not a soft synth) and it crashed again.)

I am on an Intel Dual Core E6700, Asus MB, etc. and everything else runs flawlessly. I am using ASIO, though come to think of it. I'll try WDM and see what happens.....

But it does run smoothly within Revalver, which certainly makes the VST implementation suspect, IMO....

Chuck

I'm sorry to hear that, it works fine in Sonar 7 at this end using AMD X2, as well as in Sonar 6 on my laptop using Intel. You do have the latest AT2 update, right? And you instantiate it as a signal processor, not a soft synth? Consider re-installing it just in case it got corrupted. I used to have problems with AT2 but not since downloading the latest version.

 

[siguitar]

Hi Craig,

I was wondering if you use any of the new East West PLAY vst's and if so, can you talk about how well or poorly they work in Sonar 7? I have a couple of them and they are a bit touchy as it is... I suppose if there are others who've had experience with using these vst's in particular with S7, perhaps they can comment here or start a separate thread?


Thanks,

Andy

[Anderton]

Hi Craig, I was wondering if you use any of the new East West PLAY vst's and if so, can you talk about how well or poorly they work in Sonar 7? I have a couple of them and they are a bit touchy as it is... I suppose if there are others who've had experience with using these vst's in particular with S7, perhaps they can comment here or start a separate thread?

There should be some coming here soon for review, but they're not here yet. But if anyone has any experience with these, please post about them here so that everything related using things with Sonar 7 is in one place.

[wwwill]

OK, a couple of questions about the Step Sequencer:

- Can each row send on different MIDI channels/ports? Sometimes I want a pattern to drive multiple kits on a multitimbral(sp) synth/sample. Sometimes I want to use specific sounds from different synths/samplers.

- Can I switch patterns? Am I only limited to having 1 pattern play per instance or are the "banks" of patterns? Can I switch patterns with MIDI keys from a controller?

- Can I record the MIDI output (in realtime)? Lots of times I build arrangements on the fly. Can I record a MIDI track (or multiple takes/tracks) in realtime (while switching patterns, see above)?

Right now I am using SonicBytes ERA as my step sequencer; but I am evaluating solutions for drum pattern/song creation. I was thinking about another (rewire) app like Guru, Fruity, Project5, Live, Reason, etc., I don't like the idea of getting another full fledge app; all I really need is a MIDI drum pattern tool.

If these things are possible I'll be really happy to upgrade; I have 4 Prod on my machine and 6 Prod upgrade never installed. This looks like a great upgrade anyway; sidechaining, z3ta/dimension le/rapture le, external signal processsing, and the linear phase/boost11(?) are probably worth it alone. Really impressive.

Oh and by the way. I really like the way community "insiders" like Anderton and Garrigus are present. Makes me feel really nice.

Well done all.

[garrigus]

1. Can each row send on different MIDI channels/ports?

Yes. The SS uses drum maps. Double-click the name of the row to bring up its properties and there you can assign a new channel and/or out port. You can also do it in the Drum Manager.

2. Can I switch patterns?

No. One pattern per instance. But you can have more than one SS clip (pattern) per track. Each new pattern gets its own SS view.

3. Can I record the MIDI output (in realtime)?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean here, but I'm thinking no, you can't do that with the SS view.

Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - Author of Cakewalk, Sound Forge 6, 7/8 and SONAR 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Power books.
** Get Sonar 6 Power & Sound Forge 8 Power - Today! **
http://www.garrigus.com/

Publisher of DigiFreq. Win a free Absynth 3 or Kontakt 2 DVD Tutorial and learn cool music technology tips and techniques by getting a FREE subscription to DigiFreq... over 20,000 readers can't be wrong! Go to:
http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

[SF_Green]

Geeze, Why do all the developers release simultainiously? (stupid trade shows), reaper 2.0(user beta) and samp 10 also out just recently. How is a DAW Drunk supposed to inbibe it all in a single chug?? ( I'll take the Buss home!). Don't forget to investigate the side chain options in sonar!! The new Midi stuff could be the thing that takes me into the Cake- walking world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You forgot another huge one - I got the Reason 4 upgrade within days of my Sonar7PE upgrade. I guess I'll sleep when I'm dead!

[Anderton]

2. Can I switch patterns? No. One pattern per instance. But you can have more than one SS clip (pattern) per track. Each new pattern gets its own SS view.

 

 

Scott's right, but there's another workaround: Save each pattern on its own MIDI track. Then you can mute/solo the tracks to change "presets."

 

 

3. Can I record the MIDI output (in realtime)? I'm not exactly sure what you mean here, but I'm thinking no, you can't do that with the SS view.

 

 

I think he means Groove Agent-type capabilities, where you can mess with the sequencer and record the results while you make changes. I'm on the road so my test options are limited, but perhaps you send the output to a hardware MIDI out port, and loop it back to a MIDI in? Or use the Hubi's MIDI loopback or something?

[ChristopherMo]

Oops! We'll try to fix that in the first patch.

 

 

Although I can understand why it is not acceptable fro S7 to crash in these circumstances, what would be the practical use of gluing controller events? As they are essentially modal events, gluing them would not increase their effect, would it? The end result would presumably be like using the old "thin controllers" cal.

[ChristopherMo]

One thing you can't do with the Step Sequencer is "lasso" a bunch of notes, then move them around-either to a different row, or different time within the same row. This could be very useful if you came up with a decent pattern with the Step Sequencer, but upon (for example) overdubbing additional parts, you decided you want to retain some of the Step Sequencer part but do a serious overhaul to the rest. Here's an easy way to do it: 1. Select the Step Sequencer clip and go Edit > Bounce to Clip. This converts the Step Sequencer clip into a standard MIDI clip. 2. Open the clip in the Piano Roll view, and edit away. 3. Close the Piano Roll view. 4. Right-click on the clip and select "Convert MIDI Clip(s) to Step Sequencer." 5. Now the Step Sequencer will reflect the edits you made. The only thing that seems a bit odd is that when you convert back to a Step Sequence, the order of notes is reversed in the rows-low notes are on the top, high ones on the bottom. Then again, you can reorder them but I'd prefer if the notes stayed in the same places they were originally.

 

 

Switching from a MIDI clip to a step sequencer clip seems to delete any CC events that are in the clip, which is unfortunate.

 

Also, apart from switching back and forth between step sequence clip and normal MIDI clip, is there anyway of transposing and/or re-basing the step sequencer's root note? For example, if I want to work in a different register, how can I shift all of the rows up, by, say, one octave? As far as I can see, the step sequencer does not recognise any relationship between rows, so each one has to be altered separately.

[garrigus]

Also, apart from switching back and forth between step sequence clip and normal MIDI clip, is there anyway of transposing and/or re-basing the step sequencer's root note? For example, if I want to work in a different register, how can I shift all of the rows up, by, say, one octave? As far as I can see, the step sequencer does not recognise any relationship between rows, so each one has to be altered separately.

 

 

You can't. But a couple workarounds would be to load a new drum map that is already configured for the changes or you can add the Transpose MIDI effect to the Fx bin of the SS clip and use that to transpose the notes in real time.

 

Scott

 

--

Scott R. Garrigus - Author of Cakewalk, Sound Forge 6, 7/8 and SONAR 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Power books.

** Get Sonar 6 Power & Sound Forge 8 Power - Today! **

http://www.garrigus.com/

 

Publisher of DigiFreq. Win a free Absynth 3 or Kontakt 2 DVD Tutorial and learn cool music technology tips and techniques by getting a FREE subscription to DigiFreq... over 20,000 readers can't be wrong! Go to:

http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

[pbognar]

I'm sorry to hear that, it works fine in Sonar 7 at this end using AMD X2, as well as in Sonar 6 on my laptop using Intel. You do have the latest AT2 update, right? And you instantiate it as a signal processor, not a soft synth? Consider re-installing it just in case it got corrupted. I used to have problems with AT2 but not since downloading the latest version.

 

 

Craig,

 

I thought it was in this thread where you mentioned what MIDI keyboard controller and audio interface you were using to perform this review of Sonar 7. Could have sworn it was either the Line 6 KB-37 or the M-Audio Ozonic - maybe I'm hallucinating...

 

Also, I'm very interested in hearing about Dimension LE versus Dimension Pro (a $99 upgrade until the end of October if you buy Sonar 7). I'm curious how it stacks up against Sample Tank and plugs like that.

 

Thanks

[Mick@itc]

How hard would adopting the K-System be:confused:...really, not a smart-ass comment, just wondering why it has not been adopted?

Mick

[Anderton]

I thought it was in this thread where you mentioned what MIDI keyboard controller and audio interface you were using to perform this review of Sonar 7. Could have sworn it was either the Line 6 KB-37 or the M-Audio Ozonic - maybe I'm hallucinating... Also, I'm very interested in hearing about Dimension LE versus Dimension Pro (a $99 upgrade until the end of October if you buy Sonar 7). I'm curious how it stacks up against Sample Tank and plugs like that. Thanks

You're not hallucinating. While I was at home, I was using the KB-37. Now that I'm at AES in New York, I'm using Bome's MIDI keyboard I.e., using the laptop QWERTY keyboard as a "keyboard") and ASIO4ALL - a less than optimum combination but sufficient for the (very) limited amount of Sonar time I have.

Haven't been able to compare Dimension LE vs Dimension Pro, but my experience with Rapture is that Rapture LE will play back anything created for Rapture, but is much more limited. So if you're just interested in playback back patches, you have no need for Rapture. But if you want to create patches, you're better off upgrading.

[pbognar]

You're not hallucinating. While I was at home, I was using the KB-37. Now that I'm at AES in New York, I'm using Bome's MIDI keyboard I.e., using the laptop QWERTY keyboard as a "keyboard") and ASIO4ALL - a less than optimum combination but sufficient for the (very) limited amount of Sonar time I have. Haven't been able to compare Dimension LE vs Dimension Pro, but my experience with Rapture is that Rapture LE will play back anything created for Rapture, but is much more limited. So if you're just interested in playback back patches, you have no need for Rapture. But if you want to create patches, you're better off upgrading.

So for casual home use (less than 12 audio tracks) , the audio interface in the KB-37 is ok?

[Keith-Cakewalk]

Hi Craig,

Thanks for all the comments! Have fun at AES!

One thing you can't do with the Step Sequencer is "lasso" a bunch of notes, then move them around-either to a different row, or different time within the same row.

You can do different time per row. To do that the shortcut is alt + left/right. It also appears in a context menu for the steps row. What it does is shift all the steps left or right a step at a time.

Shifting one row up or down is simply changing the note it plays. Can use mouse wheel for that too.

As stated elsewhere, using track transpose will shift the whole thing (as well as anything else on the track). What's easy to do is to put a Transpose clip effect on the SS clip and shift it around. Then it only applies to that one clip and nothing else.

As far as the convert inverting the order of notes? Good catch. We'll look into fixing that one.

Keith

[Anderton]

So for casual home use (less than 12 audio tracks) , the audio interface in the KB-37 is ok?

 

 

Check out this review I wrote for EQ magazine. I estimate I use the KB37 for about two-thirds of the projects I do in my studio, because the workflow is so exceptional. The mic pres aren't $2,000 boutique mic pres, but they're way better than what you would expect for the price.

[DJMillsy]

Hi Guys,

This is the first time i've seen one of your interactive reviews and it's absolutely superb.

I have been a Cubase user for around 8 years and have now decided to look at new DAW's. As it stands I think Sonar has seduced me enough to warrant a cross grade but I do have a quick questions.

Whilst using the Soanr 6 online Demo I noted that it is not possible to cut and paste VSTi automation in the track view. People have mentioned it is a bug and the only way arund it is to use midi controllers in the clip view or drop a single output VSTi into the bin on an audio track.

Has this issue been resolved in Sonar 7??

I will still probably buy it anyway but it would be nice;)

[Mick@itc]

Hi Guys, This is the first time i've seen one of your interactive reviews and it's absolutely superb. I have been a Cubase user for around 8 years and have now decided to look at new DAW's. As it stands I think Sonar has seduced me enough to warrant a cross grade but I do have a quick questions. Whilst using the Soanr 6 online Demo I noted that it is not possible to cut and paste VSTi automation in the track view. People have mentioned it is a bug and the only way arund it is to use midi controllers in the clip view or drop a single output VSTi into the bin on an audio track. Has this issue been resolved in Sonar 7?? I will still probably buy it anyway but it would be nice;)

 

 

Suggest you search or ask on the SONAR forum, they are very active;)

 

 

Mick

[pbognar]

Check out this review I wrote for EQ magazine. I estimate I use the KB37 for about two-thirds of the projects I do in my studio, because the workflow is so exceptional. The mic pres aren't $2,000 boutique mic pres, but they're way better than what you would expect for the price.

Thanks for the link, Craig. The idea of an all-in-one solution for audio/guitar processing/MIDI input in a small package is definitely appealing

And would be nice to be able to move to any of 3 computers in the house with just this one device

It's not USB 2.0, but if it gets the job done for my needs - that's what counts.

[soundcreations]

Hey Alex - another heads-up - if I try to insert Steinberg Hypersonic as a soft synth using the insert > soft synths menu, it crashes Sonar. If I insert it by right-clicking in the effects bin and choosing Hypersonic, it loads okay.

 

 

Craig,

The crashing Hypersonic VST has been a long standing issue. I think it is a Syncrosoft issue somehow. I never tried loading the vst in the effects bin as I am used to using the Synth Rack.

 

The DXi is version is very stable and lets you pull up Bank and Patch information in the track view which is nice.

[Anderton]

Whilst using the Soanr 6 online Demo I noted that it is not possible to cut and paste VSTi automation in the track view. People have mentioned it is a bug and the only way arund it is to use midi controllers in the clip view or drop a single output VSTi into the bin on an audio track. Has this issue been resolved in Sonar 7??

I have not found any way to cut/paste VST automation in Track view. However, it is now much easier to copy MIDI controller data among multiple lanes. This is particularly handy if you want to use the same controller curve for two different parameters.

BTW I'm back from AES and while my time will remain somewhat limited for the Pro Reviews because I'm cranking out videos as fast as I can for the Theater part of the site, I'm working my way back into Pro Review mode

[Anderton]

It's not USB 2.0, but if it gets the job done for my needs - that's what counts.

 

 

It doesn't really stream enough tracks to justify USB 2.0. I should also mention that it will work at higher sample rates (88.2/96).

[DJMillsy]

I have not found any way to cut/paste VST automation in Track view. However, it is now much easier to copy MIDI controller data among multiple lanes. This is particularly handy if you want to use the same controller curve for two different parameters.

Thanks Craig, I really appreciate the info. I am on the verge of converting to Sonar and Cakewalk will owe you a fee because your review is getting me over the line.

[ZOUNDMAN72]

 

That's really a shame, because they're great features and they DO work. First of all, you really need to be at 6.2 if you aren't already. Second, in the Pro Review for Sonar 6, I did a couple tutorials on AudioSnap and ACT that people found very helpful. Check them out, both features really are cool once you get them going. (For what it's worth, it took me a while to wrap my head around both of those, and it also took Cakewalk a couple point releases to trim things up as well.)

 

FYI - 6.22 is for Home Studio only - it can't help us sad sacks that are struggling with SE or PE on Vista64. Today I destroyed the colourful keyboard that I got with my 6.21/keyboard bundle out of sheer frustration - it never worked right anyway - it's in fractured pieces now but I actually do feel better. 'Guess that was the real value of the thing cause typing on it was almost pointless. Workflow? You'd have to be able to do some work first - and I'm still working on that ...

 

Anyway - stay tuned for further reports. I actually got in touch with someone at Cakewalk recently that professes to be able to help me - and it only took me 3.5 hours of being on hold and talking to first level support staff as they walked me through a bunch of stuff that didn't help at all. I know it's necessary to do that from a trouble shooting perspective but how about shipping software that actually works as it's supposed to in the first place. To be fair - I'm pretty sure that Vista64 is the weak link. My bad for living on the bleeding edge. 'Want my advice? Stick to 32 bit Winders or maybe XP64 is finally working now after 4 years on the market. Do I sound bitter? Yeah sorry but today I lost yet another 2 hours of work - but I'm here to tell you that tequila definitely helps. An hour ago I wouldn't have been able to type as I was incapacited with rage! Anyway I suggest Anejo in a tumbler. Never mind the ice.

 

Keep on keepin' on

 

the Zoundman