Learning to read music vs tabs

[bigboy_78]

If I want to play a tune I buy the "score", what difference does it make how it is scored?

I own bookshelves full of piano songbooks becuase I don't have time to sit down and transcribe the thousands of songs I have access to in the books. I enjoy the motion of my hands and the sounds that they create, does it make me less of a musician because I am relying on notation to learn pieces?

The thing with TAB though, and I think this is the point everyone makes about TAB is that you can play very well and still have absolutely no idea what you're paying or why. I guess this is what you mean when you talk of Guitar Players vs Musicians whose instrument of choice is Guitar.

[BydoEmpire]

There isn't anything wrong with tab, it's a handy tool and I certainly use it for pieces that are too fast or too complex for me to learn by ear. But being able to read music has a lot of benefits. This year I'm finally learning to read on guitar (I learnd on sax back in high school, but that was decades ago) and it's nice to be able to take a Christmas song from any old book and learn it from the music.

After just a month of working on reading, I've realized it helps reinforce theory in a way tab doesn't. It makes the intervals between notes in a chord visually clear, especially for inversions, and of course it shows what the notes are doing (not just fingerings). To me, it's also easier to see the melodic motion of notes on the staff - they're going up and down - than looking at a bunch of numbers.

Learning to sight read is a great skill, but anybody can pick up a tab sheet and learn a song, which makes it useful as well. They're just tools.

[Surrealistic]

Surrealistic - You know of session players with zero music reading ability? ... Every time I play with new people a piece that has to come together quickly the first thing they hand you is a chart. These cats can ALL read that - and whats on the chart is- measures, forms, repeats, chords, rests, riffs - all these are elements of reading in some regard ... so that being a given is it fair to say that the vast majority of these pros read on some level?

Well I can't say for sure that the ones I know can't read - but I do know that they don't when I've seen them work. The typical piece of paper they're working from has measures, chords and rests sure, and the occasional note sequence written out (e.g. A F# G B etc). Now you could argue that's a form of reading but it doesn't equate to "reading music" as that phrase would be understood by a classical musician.

As I said, I don't want to side with the "reading is bunk" brigade but I do think it's a little simplistic to group people based on whether they can read.

Here's an anecdote that hopefully explains where I'm coming from. I met a guy a number of years ago who was learning classical guitar. Put a piece of sheet music in front of him and he could pretty quickly play it, and quite nicely too. He was no virtuoso by any means but could play a reasonable, if a little mechanical, rendition of the piece. I picked up my guitar and showed him something I'd been working on - just a little composition of my own - and I was very surprised by his reaction. He said something like "How do you remember that without the music" and went on further to say "Why would you want to commit all of those notes to memory". I tried to explain that I didn't remember it as such and I wasn't committing the notes to memory - I was improvising around an idea I had. He was apparently unable to understand this concept . I got him to play his piece again and I jammed along with it. As it was a piece I'd never heard before I certainly didn't play as well as I'd have liked but I managed to pull off some phrases that fit very well. He seemed even more puzzled by my ability to do this.

The odd thing is that although I had to accept he could do something that I could not (sight read for guitar), he seemed only to be puzzled and not at all impressed by what I was doing.

Basically, in my book although he could read he was certainly not a musician!

Now, as I said before, I don't think for a minute that being able to read is anything but beneficial but equally it's possible for someone to be able to read and still not be a musician. You can check out any junior school orchestra to see people who fit that category

I'm sorry if I've derailed the thread with this side issue - it is just a side issue and I don't have a problem with the key points being made.

[jeremy_green]

No derailing at all! Isnt that what we are here for - a discussion : ) Dont ever think I am ripping - just discussing. Were we doing over a pint I'd be smilin away. Typed words can read harsh dependent on the way it is worded.

 

I know exactly what you are talking about - reading can go far the other way too. I have played with many awesome piano players who can go like crazy but take away the sheets and they are lost - so the crutch can go the other way as well.

 

With guitar players specifically this hasnt been my experience. For us it is TAB that can be relied upon too much. That is why I am aimed at that. My point is I dont like ANY reliance. Like many have stated Tab and notation are just tools. The playing is THE thing.

 

My history briefly - I learned from ear, then later to tab. Then I got my first teacher (I was playing semi-pro at this point) who showed me reading and theory. The benefits from the reading to other parts of my playing went far beyond my expectations - this is why I am a fan.

 

ALSO - during the last 3 years I decided that I no longer wanted to rely on any transcriptions and really focus on my ear. So since then I have been madly transcribing - no tabs OR notations in practice. By doing this my playing exploded - coincidence? During transcribing you learn SOOO much. It is HERE where you learn the vocabulary and fill in the blanks IMO. I have made more gains in the last 3 years than in the previous 25. So for me notation is really about communication at this point. Usually with players on other instruments.

 

I know what it is like to rely on Tab. I was that guy for a period of time.

 

Until I saw the light - which I am attempting to share now : )

[Surrealistic]

Actually I've hardly ever used tabs at all. I have a couple of times and it was useful but I never got into the habit of it.

I started out by vowing to just learn to play on my own and to discard all the music theory I'd learned (I could sight read for clarinet well enough to play in the local youth orchestra). It was my own personal rebel-without-a-cause phase ... well, I was 14 and you know what 14 yr olds are like - they know everything

I haven't forgotten everything though, of course. I'm sure I could read sheet music for guitar if I really had to but a) it would take me a long time to work it out and b) it's a moot point as I play almost entirely my own material anyway.

[SteinbergerHack]

If you want to do any work in the classical or musical theater realm, you have to be able to read standard notation. This has gotten me quite a bit of work over the years.....YMMV. I've also played a number of jobs on bass where the charts were all in standard notation.

If you're going to be in a band where you do most of the writing yourself, you may never need to read, per se. Personally, I think it makes understanding things like modalities easier to understand, but it's not absolutely necessary.

[TrickyBoy]

Jeremy,

I don't want to speak for you, and correct me if I'm wrong. But I think the point is that if all you want to do is play songs, go ahead and use TAB for everything. You can become a very good technical player using this method

If, however, you want to develop your EAR, you need to learn songs by yourself. You can still your the tab to "check your work" or help you with especially difficult passages, but you have to try to figure it out on your own first.

Also, one thing that reading music provides that TAB misses is WHY a guitarist picked the specific notes they did for a given passage. You can watch the key of the solo modulate with chord changes vs. just fingering a specific string and fret as transcribed.

All that being said, you may not care, WHICH IS ALL RIGHT. We don't all need/require/desire to be theory buffs. It's just a matter of what YOU want to become as a guitarist/musician. The point is that there is something to be learned from training your ear and learning to read. There's also something to be learned from macro-economic theories. Personally, I like the music thing and could give a {censored} about economy (hence the fact that I tend to be broke:facepalm:).

[jeremy_green]

You are correct Jason I agree with your statement. You are interpreting me correctly.

 

The issue I have seen comes when you hear these players (I see them a lot) who have ripping speed - but NO real soloing ability. This to me is always a sure sign of a player who has learned this way.

 

As you said you can easily miss the whole "WHY" part of a passage.

 

Then you will likely post a thread on an internet forum such as this asking for help making your solos interesting because despite your technical prowess you have NO REAL CONCEPT of what you have been doing!!

 

(this post is strictly fictional, any likenesses in whole or in part to people alive or dead are strictly coincidental. The author makes no claims as to its validity and cannot be held legally responsible in the events depicted forthwith)

[TrickyBoy]

Jeremy,

WTF with the disclaimer at the end of your post?? Legal issues??:poke:

[TrickyBoy]

 

 

BTW - we've been agreeing way too much lately. I'm going to have to go on a "popular music is great" rant soon!

[jeremy_green]

Ha! funny stuff I was thinking the same thing ... fire when ready!

 

PS- In case you werent joking the legal thing is a total joke - just dont want anyone here thinking I am talking about them directly : )

[TrickyBoy]

You know you have your hands full when debating with someone who has both Ke$ha and Wes Montgomery on the iPod playlist.

As for the legal thing, I was just goofin'.

[jonfinn]

Here's what I think: The music industry is changing. Now that the record companies can't monopolize, there's room for more points of view. "Everybody does it this way" statements don't apply the way they used to.

 

It used to be a common tactic to propagate a "self-taught musician" image for rock players. Whether it's true is another matter in many cases. In fact, there were many cases when the "self-taught rock star" tracks were often replaced without the star ever knowing (and blindly taking credit).

 

My point is that "regular" people are smarter than big companies give credit. When I read this forum and it's responses, I see intelligent responses and many points of view. But at the end of the day, we're all rowing in the same direction.

 

Time to go work on my reading some more!

[gennation]

I use both regularly.

 

I'll write tabs to record WHERE I played things and I'll write the notation to record HOW it is to be played. The two together are the perfect reference for a guitarist.

 

Tab is great for teaching specifics too, and notation is great when you want someone to figure out how to logically, and soundly, place things on the fretboard for themselves.

[Jasco]

Surrealistic - You know of session players with zero music reading ability?

Not trying to derail the conversation here, but this reminds of a funny story that happened to me years ago when I was a teenager living in Los Angeles.

I was sitting out in front of my apartment building doing some finger exercises on an electric guitar, when a car pulls up and a guy gets out. He's all smiles, as if he knows me, and asks if I'm ready to go record. Now, I've never seen this cat before in my life, but I figure what the f**k, lets see where this leads.

So I get in the car and he drives me to a small recording studio. We get out and go inside and he puts up some charts. I let him know I can't read. He tells me that I told him I could read. I'm still thinking WTF? cause I've never met this cat before. So then he plays the lines on keys, I learn them quick and record them.

At the end of the day he's happy with the recording results, pays me $50 and a 12 pack of beer and drives me back home.

Later that night, a bunch of us from my apartment are partying together, and one cat named Jake, who is my same age, with similar long blonde hair, who plays guitar and can read, starts complaining about how he was supposed to have a recording session date earlier that day, but the guy never showed up to pick him up.

I about spit my beer out laughing. In the end it was all good and I ended up working another month or so recording in the same way - just copying the cat's piano lines by ear.

[gennation]

I know a ton of serious, and highly sought after, studio musicians who don't read.

 

I just did a session with one of the best (also plays with Vic Juris) Sunday night at a session. Just for the record, I didn't have to read on the session either. I get a ton of studio calls that don't require any reading.

 

I bet these days I'm getting more live performances that require some level of reading compared to studio calls.

[Umbra]

Tabs are worthless once you want to pickup something other than guitar. Reading music lets you just focus on the playing technique of the new instrument and you're up and running at a reasonable proficiency relatively quickly.

[Nightwatchman9270]

I started out as a piano player, so I know how to read music, and I CAN figure out notes on a guitar if I need to. I think reading music in essential to understand the WHY'S of music (why does this group of notes work here but not there, why does this chord sound the way it does, etc.). I think reading notes is important in classical and jazz. I think for the type of music 90% on here play 90% of the time (blues, rock, strumming/singing) you don't need it. I could spend the rest of my life trying to master the things I want to master and never need to read a note.

Although I guess it's hard for me since I kinda "automatically" read the notes as I read the tab. It's kinda of like seeing the word EXIT and knowing what the word says before you consciously think about "reading". If that makes sense.

[Nightwatchman9270]

Not trying to derail the conversation here, but this reminds of a funny story that happened to me years ago when I was a teenager living in Los Angeles. I was sitting out in front of my apartment building doing some finger exercises on an electric guitar, when a car pulls up and a guy gets out. He's all smiles, as if he knows me, and asks if I'm ready to go record. Now, I've never seen this cat before in my life, but I figure what the f**k, lets see where this leads. So I get in the car and he drives me to a small recording studio. We get out and go inside and he puts up some charts. I let him know I can't read. He tells me that I told him I could read. I'm still thinking WTF? cause I've never met this cat before. So then he plays the lines on keys, I learn them quick and record them. At the end of the day he's happy with the recording results, pays me $50 and a 12 pack of beer and drives me back home. Later that night, a bunch of us from my apartment are partying together, and one cat named Jake, who is my same age, with similar long blonde hair, who plays guitar and can read, starts complaining about how he was supposed to have a recording session date earlier that day, but the guy never showed up to pick him up. I about spit my beer out laughing. In the end it was all good and I ended up working another month or so recording in the same way - just copying the cat's piano lines by ear.

I think it's a great story. Especially about a cat that play a piano AND drive a car. Was his name Toonces by any chance?

[jeremy_green]

I know a ton of serious, and highly sought after, studio musicians who don't read. I just did a session with one of the best (also plays with Vic Juris) Sunday night at a session. Just for the record, I didn't have to read on the session either. I get a ton of studio calls that don't require any reading. I bet these days I'm getting more live performances that require some level of reading compared to studio calls.

 

 

What is your point with this comment? Not really sure what you are trying to promote there. I guess you feel people dont need to read then eh?

[gennation]

What is your point with this comment? Not really sure what you are trying to promote there. I guess you feel people dont need to read then eh?

 

I think I was following up on Jasco story, don't get excited.

 

There are plenty of times when you don't need to read...sometimes even in a situation you might think is a reading situation, like the studio. There are plenty of great musicians who don't need to read...and those are usually the ones who wrote the songs you're reading

 

Reading is yet another tool, and I'll be reading tonight actually...it's a useful tool. But I'll have to say I played for decades 5-7 night a week for about 15 years and NEVER learned to read. I even did Realbook gigs without being able to read anything but the chord chart. And, actually only in the last 5 years of playing for over 30 years have I taken it upon myself to learn to read...and I'm glad I did as I do a LOT of reading in my current group...but I should say...

 

I do a lot of chart correcting too...that goes for charts outside of my band too. And I should add that while I've played with some great readers, there's been a few that will constantly play the wrong notes because they are written wrong...so their ear never helps them through the 'music' only their eyes help in 'reading'.

 

I've always been an "ear trumps all" player. Which is one of the reasons I spend as much time correcting charts and tabs as I do playing them.

 

Also, I much prefer the calls I get because of my musical abilities rather than my reading abilities.

 

While it's a useful tool (as is learning to read tab), it does nothing in determining how good of a musician you are...only in how good you copy music...unless of course you're writing it.

[jeremy_green]

Gennation, you of all people know that learning to read music can be a frustrating, challenging and often times boring experience. I'm sure words like those in your last post may ring in the heads of some of these developing players when they are struggling and wonder if it is worth the hassle.

 

The last thing I would want to hear if I was sitting on the fence about trying or while struggling to learn it is "there are a ton of pro players who don't read".

 

I dont know man, I just believe in promoting musical literacy amongst guitarists. It has done so much for me in my understanding.

[meganutt7]

The reality is, sadly, that many guitarists don't read and have a limited understanding of theory.

Some even wear it like a badge on their sleeve, like Dave Navarro.... Now, Dave Navarro is a far cry from a SICK guitarist that can do anything... But there are MANY out there with EXCEPTIONAL skills that don't or can't read...

Again, if their ear is amazing and their vocabulary is voracious enough, they may never need to read. Or, they may come into a situation where they need to, but manage to skate by based on their big ears...

This is not an excuse NOT TO learn to read, but I do understand many people's reservation about it, especially on guitar.

Like I said, I am not a phenomenal reader. I do read sometimes, to try and improve, but I spend far more time working on technical or theoretical things...

I have never really been asked to read, and if I have, I was furnished the chart enough time before a session to be able to pick at it and memorize it...

Again, I am not advocating illiteracy on guitar, but I am just stating MY experience...

I am sure that Gennation is doing the same, Jeremy...I understand your passion and agree that everyone should at least havea passing acquaintance with reading and CERTAINLY where all the notes are on the neck.

[bigboy_78]

Gennation, you of all people know that learning to read music can be a frustrating, challenging and often times boring experience. I'm sure words like those in your last post may ring in the heads of some of these developing players when they are struggling and wonder if it is worth the hassle. The last thing I would want to hear if I was sitting on the fence about trying or while struggling to learn it is "there are a ton of pro players who don't read". I dont know man, I just believe in promoting musical literacy amongst guitarists. It has done so much for me in my understanding.

Jeremy,

You've contradicted yourself a few times in this thread. You deride tab becasue it means people won't use their ears, but extole the virtues of learning to read standard notation because musical literacy is important. However you then say that all charts (however notated) should only be used as a checking tool after you have already "lifted" the tune yourself. Then we all agree that most of the TABs on the internet are wrong so should we really just check the TABs to make sure that our version isn't the same.

I think Gennations point is the same as yours. Learn to read, but also to listen to what you play. If you can't hear when a note is wrong you are up the {censored}, but I guess by the same token if someone is paying you to play their composition, you need to be able to play what is written, rather than what you think you should be hearing.

[bigboy_78]

..... agree that everyone should at least havea passing acquaintance with reading and CERTAINLY where all the notes are on the neck.

 

 

That's the bit where it falls apart for guitar. Reading music is really very easy. Much easier than reading words, and we can all do that. Learning where the notes are on the fretboard in really hard, slow and frustrating. I think the only way you are forced to do that is by using standard notation to learn melodies.

 

Once you know where the notes are, you are 3/5ths of the way to potential mastery.