We see a lot pf posts here asking how to play fast...

[jeremy_green]

AXEL, no disrespect intended whatsoever, we are just rapping here cool?

 

Competition in life can be a motivator yes. In art??? Not so much man. Sure maybe competition will help you raise your RPM's maybe, but simultaneously it can also distract you from other arguably more important aspects.

 

It's not about admitting defeat at all! It's about not getting caught up in the penis measuring contest that can be found, in any music store or jam night. Being the guy standing at the back with his arms crossed because he is "better" than the guy on stage is really a sad thing. I seriously feel sorry for these guys. USUALLY it is because that guy feels he is faster, he wont admit it, but this is the crux of it.

 

Meanwhile buddy on stage may be playing some really cool stuff... but it's "easy" therefore less valid in their mind. We all know this guy. The "Angus Young is a crappy guitarist" guy.

 

Nobody said there was anything wrong with speed as an expression. The point is make some music along the way. Because if speed is all you can hang your hat on, you are farked. There IS a guy faster (therefore he is better). There just is.

 

Cheers

[AXEL276]

AXEL, no disrespect intended whatsoever, we are just rapping here cool?

 

 

No disrespect intended or taken. I knew what I was saying would be mistaken. Yes I whole heartedly agree first and foremost music should be fun, an art form. Competition if taken the wrong way can be VERY unhealthy. Speaking for myself, I want to be the best I can be. I still practice every night for several hours as I have for the past 35+ years. I am highly motivated. I use technique as a tool, it's not the primary source of expression, it's like having more colors on the pallet (if you were a painter). When a previous poster mentioned why even bother trying to play fast when there are so many other faster players, then I say why even bother playing melodically, there are so many other better melodic players. It sounds dumb. In other words, if shred is your thing, go for it. It is a legit form of expression. There are guys who have refined it to an art, don't dismiss it. Maybe it's just me, but when I hear another guitar player I compare myself. I'm either better, i.e. more advanced, better facilities for expression, or I

[jeremy_green]

No worries Axel, like I said just rapping. I know you are a good guy, and an excellent player. So your opinions have merit for sure.

One thing I would like to say is (and I know it is a shredders defense mechanism) but just because I am appearing to be speaking against speed - I am certainly not. Nor am I saying that blues players have feel, and shredders don't - that is complete BS. Like you said with the colours concept, there are many shades of gray between those black and white extremes.

Nothing AT ALL wrong with shred. It's cool. But shred, unlike the blues, is largely a style that is defined by mind bending speed: a single learn-able technique. It is easy to enjoy fast playing, therefore it is equally easy to get distracted by it, shifting your practice time unhealthily to meet that end. Then using it to measure worth.

So lets all please not turn this into a shred vs. feel thread. I dont think anyone is going there.

I do have somewhat of a comment with your quote:

Maybe it's just me, but when I hear another guitar player I compare myself. I'm either better, i.e. more advanced, better facilities for expression, or I

[AXEL276]

Not to come off all enlightened and stuff, but i just don't do this anymore... and haven't in a lot of years. Usually, when I hear someone else, I am listening for stuff that moves me. I don't really ever compare them to me, unless it is a "I love that idea! I am gonna work on that" kind of way. On days when I am a little down maybe I get the odd "Damn! I wish I could play like that dude" feeling, but it is usually because I like their style. I think a lot of us do things negatively to ourselves, that we don't notice. I think there is a path to excellence many of us have, but get distracted by a character trait. Things like stubbornness, hubris, closed-mindedness, insecurity. I think some people, just get to the spot early, where all they care about is the sound - this is the path to greatness IMO. For some I think it is later. For me, I just don't see much gain in worrying about it, or comparisons. I think, if all you care about is making an awesome sound, the rest takes care of itself. You get more gigs, people enjoy referring you, you just sound better and are a positive addition for more than just your playing. Plus you are personally happier to boot. Don't get me wrong, not putting any of this on you just riffin'.

 

 

Jeremy, I've listened to your playing as well and have a lot of respect for you. There is no doubt you have put it the time and experienced the journey. I hear what your saying here and it has hit home. Maybe I'm not there yet.... but I will think about it. Thanks!

[jeremy_green]

Brother you are in good company! I dont think anyone ever feels like they are truly there! We've all got our stuff! But once the technique issues fade, it becomes all what's between your ears. This is why I think you hear a lot of advanced players poo poo-ing quests for speed. We (advanced players) all have, or can have the speed with some invested time. It's what we do with it that that separates us from where we want to be. When your head is on right the meat just follows. It ALL starts with your mind. I got overall faster, the less I practiced speed specific drills - not kidding. Made me rethink the whole ballgame.

I do appreciate the respect comment.

P.S. seriously if you haven't read Victor Wootens "The music Lesson" it is right down this alley.

[BydoEmpire]

There is nothing wrong with wanting to express yourself using "speed" as a vehicle.

Followed by:

To me, music isnt a competition, its about expressing one's self

Don't you see you're basically saying the same thing? I agree speed for speed's sake is kind of pointless, but that's not what Axel said. Learning to play fast because that's what you want to express, and that's the music you hear in your head is a fine thing. Same as learning any other technique. I'm sure as heck glad Johnny Hiland and Steve Vai (not to mention Pagannini, Charlie Parker and thousands of others) spent hours and hours learning to "play fast." They have songs where that's what's required. It wasn't the end in and of itself, it was a means to express something. There are times when speed is what gets the point across, and it's cool to be able to do that if you want to. It really comes down to the song and what you're trying to express, which Axel and pretty much everyone else has stated.

 

As far as melody goes, I like Jimmie Vaughan's quote (maybe not verbatim): "If you're not speaking in sentences it's just a bowl of words." Doesn't matter if it's an ambient alt-country solo or a shred instrumental, you still need to break the lines down into "sentences." Otherwise it's just noodling. Believe me, I'm great at endlessly and pointlessly noodling... Unfortunately that's not memorable or moving music.

[meganutt7]

People have different ways of expressing themselves... The yalso have different frames of reference as far as where they want to be musically, technically and otherwise. if you're a guy that loves Pink Floyd and Bob Dylan, your frame of reference will be totally different than if you are weaned on Guthrie Govan and Yngwie Malmsteen.

I know that Tony MacAlpine, for instance, grew up thinking that classical composers were the barometer, so he thought that THAT was the benchmark against which he measured himself.... This caused him to develop alot of techniques that have now become a vital part of who he is on a musical level. CAN he play slow?? sure... but he is comofortable with conveying ideas that are more technically adept and speedy...

Listen to Clapton or Gilmour... They are probably not as adept at these things, because their conception is not the same, due to the influences they drew from to form THEIR unique styles.... Primarily old blues men...

Who makes more money??? I am sure it's not Tony MacAlpine... That said, technique is not necessarily a gateway to success and MOST OF THE TIME it is not what the vast majority of the population want to hear.

As I have matured musically (as much as I have managed to mature) I find that the faster stuff I used to play all the time as a matter of course has slowly begun to dissipate in favor of more melodic ideas and attempts at PURE improvisation. I do still bust out some fast stuff here and there, but it's usually way less technical and crazy than what it used to be. My technique is not nearly as great as it used to be on a single note soloing level, but I have improved many other areas to the point where that single note soloing portion is of less consequence and importance....

I think that it IS important to develop the techniques you NEED to play the music you WANT TO PLAY.... Not everyone needs to play 32nd notes.... Not everyone needs to learn hybrid picking.... Ideally, everyone would know everything, but sadly it is a process that some are not interested in devoting time or effort to, and others simply don't NEED.....

I say, like all things, try to learn it and then forget it.... Internalize it to the point where it's second nature and then let your mind and intuition and EAR take over and do what they do..... THAT, at the end of the day, is who you are as a musician. Not what you CAN PLAY. But what you CHOOSE TO PLAY....

[AXEL276]

I think that it IS important to develop the techniques you NEED to play the music you WANT TO PLAY.... Not everyone needs to play 32nd notes.... Not everyone needs to learn hybrid picking.... Ideally, everyone would know everything, but sadly it is a process that some are not interested in devoting time or effort to, and others simply don't NEED.....

 

One of God's great gifts is articulation....as simple as it is, this sums things up beautifully!

 

BTY, I'm a big Tony MacAlpine fan. The G3 concert several years ago, Beacon Theater, NY city. I'm in the 4 row center. In front of me are Yngwie, Petrucci, Vai, Sach, MacAlpine, Neal Schon, and Billy Sheehan. All up there at once jamming! I'll never forget it.

[meganutt7]

I think that it IS important to develop the techniques you NEED to play the music you WANT TO PLAY.... Not everyone needs to play 32nd notes.... Not everyone needs to learn hybrid picking.... Ideally, everyone would know everything, but sadly it is a process that some are not interested in devoting time or effort to, and others simply don't NEED..... One of God's great gifts is articulation....as simple as it is, this sums things up beautifully! BTY, I'm a big Tony MacAlpine fan. The G3 concert several years ago, Beacon Theater, NY city. I'm in the 4 row center. In front of me are Yngwie, Petrucci, Vai, Sach, MacAlpine, Neal Schon, and Billy Sheehan. All up there at once jamming! I'll never forget it.

My man... If THAT is what floats your boat, I am glad it was something you got to experience. To someone else that would be just wankery and they would much rather be at a joni Mitchell concert. Variety is the spice of life.

[Eddie]

Just a few comments:
Gilmour plays the way he plays because, in his words, he has slow fingers. It's not that he's against fast playing, but rather he adapted/developed his style within this limitation.

I also like to think that music is not a competition, but there is a competition within myself to become a bit better each time I play.

Speaking of competition, and since blues players were mentioned, competition was very much a part of the blues. We can see it from the head-cutting contests (Buddy Guy is famous for winning bottles of whiskey) to the stories of guitarists "stealing" techniques from each other. Today we share knowledge, but back then (1920s-1930s) people were very protective of how they accomplished their sounds.

Technique and playing fast do not exclude taste, musicality, and passion.

[YOUTUBE]5XK-wzrLpNo[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]9cadbYIzhqQ[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]Mk_GMvIea6s[/YOUTUBE]

The more we develop different techniques, the better we'll be able to express our ideas, feelings, and emotions.

I hate sweep-picking when it sounds like someone's strangling a turkey, but Gotty sounds good here:
[YOUTUBE]Z9m5qVPnpP8[/YOUTUBE]
I'm sure some people will complain that he's not using alternate picking

[AXEL276]

What planet is Daniele Gottardo from? If there was ever a cause not to play fast because some else has already done it, it's this guy. Check out some of his stuff. His fingers are not human....
Ok, I've got to go and practice now..LoL

[jeremy_green]

Seriously man, that dudes fingers just fly! All skinny and stick like : ) Pretty awesome technique!

[Eddie]

Glad you liked Gottardo. I don't recall how I heard about him, but probably when I heard about "Guitar Idol."
http://www.guitaridol.tv/

I love this one with Gotty:
[YOUTUBE]uSThusImQco[/YOUTUBE]

[TrickyBoy]

Not to come off all enlightened and stuff, but i just don't do this anymore... and haven't in a lot of years. Usually, when I hear someone else, I am listening for stuff that moves me. I don't really ever compare them to me, unless it is a "I love that idea! I am gonna work on that" kind of way. On days when I am a little down maybe I get the odd "Damn! I wish I could play like that dude" feeling, but it is usually because I like their style.

So I was VERY competitive when I was younger (Late teens especially). I practiced as much as 8 hours a day in high school and one of my HUGE motivating factors was being better than XXXXX. And for a while, in my little pond of Newark, DE's hard rock/metal scene, I was pretty well though of, especially in my own head . And I was a cocky SOB to boot.

Then in 89 I played in a multi band gig that was headlined by Vinnie Moore. And I was going to show him that I was the {censored}. We went out and played and I pulled every trick I had out of the bag. Then he took the stage and wiped it with my ass up one side and down the other. I wasn't even in his league.

I can't say that I lost all my competitiveness on that day, but it was definitely when I started to realize that I will NEVER be the best player. Hell, I'll never be close. I quit playing seriously for about 10 years and only really picked it back up to a serious level around 5 years ago. And I'll tell you that by the time I got back in the swing of it, all that competitiveness left me. I go out to music events quite often and when people find out I play, they always start answering questions so that they can "rank" me related to other players in the area. Whatever, I just don't care anymore. I can learn stuff from just about anyone, so I just sit back and try to enjoy the music.

[AXEL276]

It's funny about the things that inspire you and things that defeat you. I remember years ago seeing Clapton perform the Journeyman CD. It was so good. But for some reason I could not pick up the guitar for over a week (which is very unusual for me). I was just so blow away by him (in a good way). On the other hand, each time I see Yngwie I'm "fueled" literary for years.

[1001gear]

 

 

Is it just me or does this guy have three hands and two heads?

 

... reminds me,

Legit pianists learn early on that you need not only all the chops but also to perfect said chops just to cover the repertoire. And that's just the beginning. A performing career requires seamless musicality and detailed perfection - words fail.

 

So what was the prob? lol

[Darylc]

Jeremy - You mentioned Bill Frizzel. I sat right in front of Bill and Russel Malone recently. Smokin' hot stuff! That was more humbling than any shredding I've ever heard!

Daryl

www.soundclick.com/darylcrowley

[1001gear]

Love that guitar tone. Who makes it?

[Darylc]

1001 Gear - If you are referring to the guitar pictured on my website... It is the primary guitar on most of my songs.

It is a heavily tricked out Cort M-800. The stock Cort M-800 and M-900 are amazing guitars as is. However I put Sperzel locking tuners on mine. Replaced the factory nut, with a custom fitted bone nut. I also replaced the Mighty Mite pickups with Gibson Classic 57 pickups. Although the Mighty Mites were nearly as good as the Classic 57s. I also added a Tonestyler Tone Control.

I've had 36 guitars in my life, including all the classic Gibson and Fenders, Les Pauls, 335s, Strats, Teles, etc. This is the best playing and sounding guitar I've ever owned.

So never immediately dismiss Korean made guitars. They've been making them a long time now, and the can be very good. Of course they also make a lot of entry level models.

I do have a Mark Campellone 18" archtop on order that I will be completed next June, that might pose a challenge to M-800 as my favorite all time guitar.

Daryl

[jeremy_green]

Jeremy - You mentioned Bill Frizzel. I sat right in front of Bill and Russel Malone recently. Smokin' hot stuff! That was more humbling than any shredding I've ever heard! Daryl www.soundclick.com/darylcrowley

That must have been just awesome! Humbling indeed.

I am a quite large fan of Bill's. A buddy of mine (who is a session guy) told me the funniest story about Bill, story goes:

He was in some airport when this guy spots Bill. The fan comes running up all excited and says "You're are Bill Frisell right? ... Man I am such a huge fan of yours!"

To which Bill looks completely puzzled, curls up his nose and says "WHY??"

Gotta love jazz guys for keeping it real.

[Floortom]

I just looked through the past five pages of this forum and saw very few "how to play fast" threads. There were far more "how to play melodically" threads.

[Darylc]

FloorTom - That's great. It shows more people are thinking clearly;)

I think a lot of young players confuse the term "melody" with just a simple note for note mirror of the vocal verses. But melody really implies "meaning and message" and this can be done with fast playing too. And there is nothing wrong with playing fast; we all wish we could play faster at times.

What most of us rebel against is the idea of playing fast for the sake of playing fast. Just playing lighting fast is cool, but alone it gets boring because it lacks continuity.

Melodic playing to me is expression and emotion and a logically progression. I don't mean predictable progression, but rather a progression that in the context of the song "makes sense". Melodic playing is not something you get from memorization or repetition, it's a feeling you convey.

When I hear a really fast shred line, or hot chicken pickin, I think "Wow that cat is hot." But when I hear a great melodic line, and it may be just a few notes, I get goose bumps are swell with emotion. I would trade the fastest shredding lick in the world to just be able to do a 1 step bend the way Larry Carlton does. Larry can play a simple one-step bend unlike any other guitar player. I can hear that one bend on the radio and know it's Larry Carlton. That's melodic playing.

Great thread.

Daryl

[meganutt7]

FloorTom - That's great. It shows more people are thinking clearly;) I think a lot of young players confuse the term "melody" with just a simple note for note mirror of the vocal verses. But melody really implies "meaning and message" and this can be done with fast playing too. And there is nothing wrong with playing fast; we all wish we could play faster at times. What most of us rebel against is the idea of playing fast for the sake of playing fast. Just playing lighting fast is cool, but alone it gets boring because it lacks continuity. Melodic playing to me is expression and emotion and a logically progression. I don't mean predictable progression, but rather a progression that in the context of the song "makes sense". Melodic playing is not something you get from memorization or repetition, it's a feeling you convey. When I hear a really fast shred line, or hot chicken pickin, I think "Wow that cat is hot." But when I hear a great melodic line, and it may be just a few notes, I get goose bumps are swell with emotion. I would trade the fastest shredding lick in the world to just be able to do a 1 step bend the way Larry Carlton does. Larry can play a simple one-step bend unlike any other guitar player. I can hear that one bend on the radio and know it's Larry Carlton. That's melodic playing. Great thread. Daryl

Totally agreed, Daryl....

Thing is, Larry Carlton can ALSO shred....

The point I wanted to make is that there is a huge difference between playing an idea fast and moving your fingers quickly across the strings... Most players who are shred-oriented play SCALES UP AND DOWN as their fast material... Going diatonically up and down in major and minor seconds all the time.... Then they learn arpeggios and they just play those up and down really fast... It doesn't really contribute to their melodic sensibilities at all, at the end of the day..... if you truly want to be a great technician AND an innovative player, you need to write your own lines, that are intervallically interesting and unique to you and THEN PRACTICE THOSE until you have them at warp speed... If you listen to a guy like Marty Friedman, or Guthrie Govan, Adam Rogers, Wayne Krantz, etc. those guys can all play fast, but if you slow dow ntheir lines and analyze WHAT they are playing so fast, you will find it's not just scales up and down by rote. They are being melodic, but just at warp speed... That is the difference between them and an amateur shredder.. .It's not the speed factor... It's the creativity factor....

[Darylc]

Yes, Larry can shred, but rarely does. Al Dimeola did an entire concert I saw and did a shred ONLY ONCE. It was monstrously cool, but once was enough and he put in a place where it made sense.

I think you are spot on. Nothing wrong with speed, even on just the scales if it's not your only trick in the bag.

And as a viable and valuable player, melodic playing with not shredding will take your infinitely farther than shredding with no melodic content.

I think most mature players know that but the sooner people learn that in their formative years, the better they will be in the long run.

I think that is why a rocker like Satriani as much wider appeal than Malsteem. Satriani is fast flashy and quite melodic. Yngwie is fun to watch for a minute or two, but man that's all he does is shred and it just loses it's appeal fast, except to those folks, and mostly newbies, that are fixated on speed. But then, I'm an old guy:)

Daryl
www.soundclick.com/darylcrowley

[jonPhillips]

I just looked through the past five pages of this forum and saw very few "how to play fast" threads. There were far more "how to play melodically" threads.

You're hardly the most frequent visitor here - try looking over the last two years...