Fusion $500 at GC?

[sizzlemeister]

I was also told that the reason some of these were so cheap was because their hard drives were failing like crazy.

 

 

Who told you that? That's bull{censored}. More FUD against the Fusion.

 

I'm fairly certain one of the big three - well, actually my theory is that it was a Korg/Yamaha join effort - had paid an ad agency to launch an internet campaign against the Fusion because they were scared of what it brought to the table. I'm willing to bet my left testicle this was the case. And it caught on, the internet myth has spread and now I'm surprised there aren't stories of Fusions killing thier owners in the middle of the night.

[SaltyDogg]

You can have my Fusion 8HD for $700 if you come get it...

Dont you love your Fusion? What went wrong?

[carbon111]

Dont you love your Fusion? What went wrong?

Nothing's wrong with the Fusion - its excellent value for the money! A very deep and capable synth with a good variety of engines - about the only trade-off was the fiddly UI and poor initial soundset, both easily overcome. In fact I have a webpage dedicated to it: http://www.carbon111.com/fusion.html

That said, I've replaced all the romplers, clonewheels and VAs in my studio with a single keyboard, allowing me to get rid of three keyboards and four modules.

[carbon111]

...And it caught on, the internet myth has spread and now I'm surprised there aren't stories of Fusions killing thier owners in the middle of the night.

...Maybe through lack of sleep

[SaltyDogg]

Nothing's wrong with the Fusion - its excellent value for the money! A very deep and capable synth with a good variety of engines - about the only trade-off was the fiddly UI and poor initial soundset, both easily overcome. In fact I have a webpage dedicated to it: http://www.carbon111.com/fusion.html That said, I've replaced all the romplers, clonewheels and VAs in my studio with a single keyboard, allowing me to get rid of three keyboards and four modules.

what did you replace them with:confused:

good for you:thu:

[Tony Scharf]

Who told you that? That's bull{censored}. More FUD against the Fusion. I'm fairly certain one of the big three - well, actually my theory is that it was a Korg/Yamaha join effort - had paid an ad agency to launch an internet campaign against the Fusion because they were scared of what it brought to the table. I'm willing to bet my left testicle this was the case. And it caught on, the internet myth has spread and now I'm surprised there aren't stories of Fusions killing thier owners in the middle of the night.

 

 

yeah..cause thats just soo much more believeable than hard drives crashing.

[carbon111]

what did you replace them with:confused: good for you:thu:

http://www.carbon111.com/oasys.html

...and that $700 offer stands if anybody wants a Fusion 8HD near Seattle, WA...I really don't want to ship it

[Veneficum]

 

Who told you that? That's bull{censored}. More FUD against the Fusion. I'm fairly certain one of the big three - well, actually my theory is that it was a Korg/Yamaha join effort - had paid an ad agency to launch an internet campaign against the Fusion because they were scared of what it brought to the table. I'm willing to bet my left testicle this was the case. And it caught on, the internet myth has spread and now I'm surprised there aren't stories of Fusions killing thier owners in the middle of the night.

 

 

Actually... this is not a surprising thing at all. I have often felt this myself because technically price/performance wise there is NOTHING here now or in the near future that can touch what the fusion is.

[sizzlemeister]

yeah..cause thats just soo much more believeable than hard drives crashing.

 

 

Don't be a dick. "Hard drives failing like crazy" implies mass hard drive failure. And if the brand they use is failing in Fusions, then they're failing in other products which is clearly not happening otherwise it'd be all over the tech sites. And selling them off for a part that's easy to replace? That's {censored}ing stupid. And it's stupid to defend to stupidity.

[MartinHines]

I'm fairly certain one of the big three - well, actually my theory is that it was a Korg/Yamaha join effort - had paid an ad agency to launch an internet campaign against the Fusion because they were scared of what it brought to the table.

 

 

And you would be wrong!!

 

Alesis created their own problem by releasing a product to market that wasn't finished:

-- the first few OS iterations were extremely buggy (e.g. the product wouldn't power up for some people)

-- the factory sounds weren't very appealing

-- people who demoed the product were not impressed at all, even with a low price compared to the "Big Three" offerings

 

The result? The Fusion earned itself a bad reputation. Just search on "Fusion" in this forum for examples of real-world comments, based on people actually demoing the product (not your "internet campaign").

 

Similarly to how people judge others based on first impressions, products are also judged. Most people will evaluate a product, form an opinion about it, and that opinion is their final opinion.

 

What did Alesis do?

-- After 3-4 OS revisions, they finally brought the OS to the level of stability it should have been at product launch

-- They enlisted the help of Hollow Sun to release a ton of free new samples and sounds (most people suggest these are way better than the original factory presets)

-- They significantly dropped the price (multiple times)

 

Even on this forum, the big "Fusion buzz" only came when the prices severely dropped, especially during the GC $500 Fusion 6HD blowout. I really don't see too many people who purchased the Fusion at its original price ($1,699 for Fusion 6HD, $1,999 for Fusion 8HD) talking about having purchased a "great value" -- those comments come from people who purchased AFTER the prices dropped significantly.

 

Case in point: How many KSS forum members purchased a Fusion 6HD for $1,699 or a Fusion 8HD for $1,999, even though the Fusion was initially widely praised in this forum (based on "spec reading")?

 

Over at the Motifator.com forums, a Yamaha rep claimed that even during the GC Fusion blowout (Dec. 2006), GC sold more Motif ES units that month than Fusions.

 

You can claim all of the conspiracy theories that you want, but the truth is that Alesis caused their own problems by releasing a product too early. If Alesis HAD waited a few months, perhaps the Fusion story would be different.

 

Is the Fusion a "good value" today at $999 for 6HD, $1,499 for 8HD? Perhaps, but most potential buyers formed their opinion about the product a long time ago.

[sizzlemeister]

Actually... this is not a surprising thing at all. I have often felt this myself because technically price/performance wise there is NOTHING here now or in the near future that can touch what the fusion is.

 

 

If you understand how these campaigns work - establish "members" in a forum and start promoting, or bashing, product - you'll see that what has happened to the Fusion on the internet is a textbook case - a success. And, if you're aware, you'll notice that low-end products from Yamaha, like the MO6 and MM6 and being pimped by people who barely have a post count. This is happening here and in other "big" forums. We've been infiltrated and people are falling for it.

[carbon111]

Don't be a dick. "Hard drives failing like crazy" implies mass hard drive failure. And if the brand they use is failing in Fusions, then they're failing in other products which is clearly not happening otherwise it'd be all over the tech sites. And selling them off for a part that's easy to replace? That's {censored}ing stupid. And it's stupid to defend to stupidity.

 

 

...exactly. I had a 6HD before "upgrading" to an 8HD and had no physical problems to speak of with either one, especially no disk problems and I used them pretty fully. The hard disks are just standard off-the-shelf from a major manufacturer.

[wheresgrant3]

And you would be wrong!! . Is the Fusion a "good value" today at $999 for 6HD, $1,499 for 8HD?

Certain a better value than the Korg TR at $999 and Roland Juno G at $999.

[sizzlemeister]

This is not a conspiracy theory Martin, this is reality 2007.

The workstation market is small but is the bread-n-butter market for Korg and Yamaha, thus the competition is fierce. The Fusion's features, if theywere to take off, are bad news for the big three (see below). Forum-infiltration is not a new marketing/PR strategy and is very effective. It's an aggressive tactic.

Anecdotally, I noticed nearly immediately upon the Fusion's actual release people starting to bash it, which was odd because demos hadn't started to appear in stores across the country. When one finally made it here I wondered what the hell keyboard these people were playing because I thought just the opposite about the negativity - they said it was poorly built and feels cheap - whereas the Fusion is clearly built as well as any high-tier synth. The keybed was bad, well, no, unless the A6, Q , and PEK's keybed is just as bad because it's the same one. The sounds were thin and "bad" (bad not ever being wholly defined) - well, what sounds are bad? The ROMpler? The VA? The FM? ALL of them sound good to great to me.

Others who have experience with the Fusion agree that ALL of the engines (except the PM), sound great - and those who had a negative opinion who FINALLY put in some time with it almost always change their opinion to a highly positive one.

Back to facts - the Fusion offers sampling, FM, and VA on top of the usual workstation features - THESE ARE TYPICALLY ADD-ON BOARDS FOR OTHER MANUFACTURERS which means additional revenue. If the Fusion platform were to take off, THAT'S LOST REVENUE for the manufacturers who will HAVE to include these things in future boards. Korg stands to look bad because, irregardless of how the engines compare, the price differential between the Fusion and Oasys LOOKS bad.

Everyone complains about crappy presets on workstations and that has occurred since the advent of the workstation. So, why would that work against the Fusion? And why does that linger still especially after Alesis' Bank 5 and some other ROM preset additions plus all of the Hollow Sun banks? It doesn't make sense unless you factor in (for lack of a better term) intentional anti-hype.

This forum operates via hype just like any other place. If the hype were huge for the Fusion then perhaps more people would have sought it out to demo. Otherwise many people are content to rely on consensus - and the seeming consensus has been that the Fusion was cheap and sounds cheap. The price being lowered to $999 got more people, like me, to take a good look, but the $499 blowout by GC came AFTER the price reduction and people, like me, started countering the bashers, and many Hollow Sun banks were released. So, if you find any correlation between the GC blowout and quality of the Fusion after being set straight with the facts then, well, I'll leave it at that for now...

It's clear as day to me there's been an intentional effort to bash the Fusion because if it were successful it would hurt Korg, Roland, and Yamaha. You know, that's business, and it is what it is. What bugs me is that people fall for it.

[rockguitar2000]

well my guitar center called, no dice. they can't find one in their system anywhere to sell me, period.

Anyone know any music stores where they can get one for $499? I'd be up for buying it from anyone who can get their hands on one for me

Chris

[Veneficum]

This is not a conspiracy theory Martin, this is reality 2007. The workstation market is small but is the bread-n-butter market for Korg and Yamaha, thus the competition is fierce. The Fusion's features, if there were to take off, are bed new for the big three (see below). Forum-infiltration is not a new marketing/PR strategy and is very effective. It's an aggressive tactic. Anecdotally, I noticed nearly immediately upon the Fusion's actual release people starting to bash it, which was odd because demos hadn't started to appear in stores across the country. When one finally made it here I wondered what the hell keyboard these people were playing because I thought just the opposite about the negativity - they said it was poorly built and feels cheap - whereas the Fusion is clearly built as well as any high-tier synth. The keybed was bad, well, no, unless the A6, Q , and PEK's keybed is just as bad because it's the same one. The sounds were thin and "bad" (bad not ever being wholly defined) - well, what sounds are bad? The ROMpler? The VA? The FM? ALL of them sound good to great to me. Others who have experience with the Fusion agree that ALL of the engines (except the PM), sound great - and those who had a negative opinion who FINALLY put in some time with it almost always change their opinion to a highly positive one. Back to facts - the Fusion offers sampling, FM, and VA on top of the usual workstation features - THESE ARE TYPICALLY ADD-ON BOARDS FOR OTHER MANUFACTURERS which means additional revenue. If the Fusion platform were to take off, THAT'S LOST REVENUE for the manufacturers who will HAVE to include these things in future boards. Korg stands to look bad because, irregardless of how the engines compare, the price differential between the Fusion and Oasys LOOKS bad. Everyone complains about crappy presets on workstations and that has occurred since the advent of the workstation. So, why would that work against the Fusion? And why does that linger still especially after Alesis' Bank 5 and some other ROM preset additions plus all of the Hollow Sun banks? It doesn't make sense unless you factor in (for lack of a better term) intentional anti-hype. This forum operates via hype just like any other place. If the hype were huge for the Fusion then perhaps more people would have sought it out to demo. Otherwise many people are content to rely on consensus - and the seeming consensus has been that the Fusion was cheap and sounds cheap. The price being lowered to $999 got more people, like me, to take a good look, but the $499 blowout by GC came AFTER the price reduction and people, like me, started countering the bashers, and many Hollow Sun banks were released. So, if you find any correlation between the GC blowout and quality of the Fusion after being set straight with the facts then, well, I'll leave it at that for now... It's clear as day to me there's been an intentional effort to bash the Fusion because if it were successful it would hurt Korg, Roland, and Yamaha. You know, that's business, and it is what it is. What bugs me is that people fall for it.

 

+1

Well said!

[MaNdU]

As for Mandu's BS, it's BS. The Fusion has excellent acoustic sounds. I love the piano - it cuts it live and doesn't sacrifice dynamics or clarity to do so. All of the EPs are stellar. It's a {censored}ing awesome synth and I curse the bull{censored} slingers and the internet for beating this machine to pulp before Alesis could let it mature. {censored}, Roland, Yamaha, Korg have been rehashing the same engines and sounds for years and years, but Alesis starts their new platform and since they haven't had years and years to refine their product it's trashed. The morons who buy into the negative-image campaign are too lazy, too stupid, too ignorant, lack creativity and lack the skill to appreciate the Fusion AS IT WAS. Now that it has some incredible banks thanks to Hollow Sun (and the few new preset banks by Alesis) - the sounds are killer - it's not taken as seriously thanks to the damage done to its reputation. {censored} you all for buying into internet group-think - I've encountered so many bashers who haven't played one, or have barely touched it in a store, but they're loud and proud about their ad-agency inspired negative opinion.

Did you know me or something, course i don't know you at all, you think that others people opinions are BS if they don't agree with you?

Leaving behiind what this "person" says i really think into getting a fusion this year to compliment my current setup (TR, P90, V-station, Bass Station, Korg legacy). It looks like an unbeatable synth sounds keyboard.As for the acoustic sounds i really think its kind of weak, and i'm not the onlyone.
Blame me for that.

[MartinHines]

And why does that linger still especially after Alesis' Bank 5 and some other ROM preset additions plus all of the Hollow Sun banks? It doesn't make sense unless you factor in (for lack of a better term) intentional anti-hype.

 

Once opinions are formed it is always difficult to get people to change their minds. Also, aren't the majority of Hollow Sun sounds NOT included in units shipped from the factory? It doesn't help floor sales if the salesman must say "ignore the sounds you hear during your demo today. There are tons of great sounds that can be downloaded AFTER YOU BUY".

 

Just look at the recent $500 GC Fusion blowout thread here. It was that killer price that got many forum members to give the Fusion a second chance. Again, initial impressions are very hard to change. Why do you think manufacturers (of any product) try to make sure products they sell are initially well received?

 

Sorry, but there is no conspiracy. If you want to place blame for the poor sales of the Fusion, look directly at Alesis.

 

As I said earlier, the Fusion story MIGHT be very different today IF Alesis had waited a few months to release it and had invested in better factory presets. However, Alesis made the deicisions they did and the marketplace responded.

[Diametro]

[sizzlemeister]

Sorry, it was a low-coffee morning. The Fusion's unsubstantiated bad rap has clearly gotten under my skin.

[mate_stubb]

 

I've called my local Guitar Centers, and no one can help me get an Alesis Fusion 6HD for $499, like some of you here have gotten. Is anyone up for helping me locate one for this price?

 

 

Rockguitar, I don't know where you are located, but the GC in Edina, MN is extremely well run with professional help, and they ordered me a factory fresh 6HD and then shipped it to me. I paid the $499 price plus a few bux for shipping.

 

Call them if you can't get help elsewhere.

[stikygum]

Reading Crabon's site, the Fusion has a Filter for each osc. and then a main filter to route all the osc.s through. This main filter was said to have LP,HP,BP,BR, and other filters like Format filters. How are the Format filters? Can you get some good vocal like sounds out of them?

 

Has anyone compared the Fusions sounds to Tritons sounds? I'm curious how they stack up with each other. I see MaNdu doesn't feel the Acoustic sounds in the Fusion are good. What are you comparing too? I would think the Motif beats out any Rompler for realism. (But I'm keen on Romplers making Electronic sounds) Are there Stab sounds in the Fusion? Is there any cheesy stuff in there?

 

I think the Fusion is awesome what they have done, just curious about the sounds.

 

Does the Fusion do Automapping of samples and is it easy to do? Is there any interesting sampling features in it?

[sizzlemeister]

Well, as you can tell, I'm apparently the forum Fusion zealot but I'll try and be as objective as possible:

I'm assuming you mean formant filter as opposed to "format", no? If so, I haven't run across a formant filter and I don't see one referenced in the manual. Perhaps I'm wrong, and I am - see Mate's post below.

I did A LOT of comparisons, although mainly between the Fusion, the Motif, and the Fantom. I ruled out the Triton early in the process because A) the sounds were uninspiring, and B) all Triton variants I came across (mainly a LE and an Extreme) were sub-par construction for the money and in comparison to the remaining three synths. The Triton's sounds were about on par with the Fantom's while I thought the Motif was the best of the three (excluding the Fusion, obviously). Both the Triton and Fantom had a similar muddy sound-quality to me and overall the sounds were uninspiring.

FWIW, the Fusion was/is weaker than the Motif only in organ sounds, specifically B3 types. Having had the Fusion now about nine months and using it with an Electro in a Pink Floyd tribute band, my assessment hasn't changed much except to say that I made some tweaks to the B3 sounds that I liked, and also made my own patch from scratch with "adjustable drawbars" and switchable chorus, plus Leslie on/off/fast/slow - and it certainly does fine live.

For pianos, electro mechanical pianos, strings, and brass the Fusion sounds brilliant. In fact, we had the girl who is doing Clare Torry's part in "Great Gig in the Sky" and she sat through our rendition of the first side of Dark Side and afterwards she said she was floored by the sounds coming out of "that keyboard".

As with any ROMpler, there is definitely a certain amount of cheese, but I always thought Roland ROMplers were the kings of cheesy patches and the Fusion, with all of its sounds, comes no-where close to beating a Roland machine for sheer amount of cheesy patches.

There is some automapping of samples, but I'm such a nit that I do everything by hand anyway so I can't really assess that capability. I think for certain pre-made multisamples that you want to import, you will run into mapping problems that need to be rectified by hand but from what I understand this is true only for a few formats.

I don't know what you're looking for in terms of "interesting sampling features", you should ask more specific questions about this, but for the moment let me say that on top of the synthesis engine's capabilities (which are applied fully to samples), there are a lot of things you can do directly to samples, not to mention effects and mixes and such.

[mate_stubb]

Stiky,

I just sat down with my Fusion and you are correct.

 

Filter types:

Low Pass 1,2,4,6,8 poles

Hi Pass 1,2,4,6,8 poles

Band Pass 2,4,6,8 poles

Band Stop 2,4,6,8 poles

Band Boost 2,4,6,8 poles

RP Low Pass 4 pole

Vocal Formant 1 (does very nice "aahhs")

Vocal Formant 2

Vocal Formant 3

[sizzlemeister]

Stiky, I just sat down with my Fusion and you are correct. Filter types: Low Pass 1,2,4,6,8 poles Hi Pass 1,2,4,6,8 poles Band Pass 2,4,6,8 poles Band Stop 2,4,6,8 poles Band Boost 2,4,6,8 poles RP Low Pass 4 pole Vocal Formant 1 (does very nice "aahhs") Vocal Formant 2

Groovy! Must have been added with one of the OS updates. And there you go.

I've had no reason to use those filters with the stuff I'm doing ATM, but if they're anything like the formant filters in the Akira then they're probably excellent at making vocal sounds.