OT: Why do I have to help pay the bailout? I didn't vote for this administration!

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

 

Forget the hype from both McCain and Obama. Communism has already shown it doesn't work.

 

 

Not that ANYBODY is talking about communism here... But name ONE example where Communism was implemented... While you're at it list an example of a true democracy.

 

Good luck!

[Bro Blue]

Yes, but remarks like that tend to come from those whose arguments have collapsed.

 

The only reason we got through the depression was because of socialist government policies. The only reason we've found ourselves in another crash is because those policies were systematically reversed (starting with Reagan).

 

 

Like what? TVA? Social Security? FDR himself only meant these things to be temporary.

 

Af for the dollar being low, so what? Currency values fluctuate.

 

You keep saying things have been reversed and everyone is bitching about deregulation - anyone want to guess which president opened the doors for banking and investment corporations to get in bed with one another?

 

Life must suck to walk around scared of something all the time.

[Bro Blue]

 

Not that ANYBODY is talking about communism here... But name ONE example where Communism was implemented... While you're at it list an example of a true democracy. Good luck!

 

 

There were posts about Communism. The whole idea that arguing the Soviet Union can't be brought up because it wasn't real Communism is absurd in its face. I, for one, have never said we live in a democracy because we do not. Besides, this splitting hairs type argument just serves to change the focus from the main idea.

 

The economy is not going to collapse, Communism and Socailism will always fail, and people will continue to make and loose money regardless of who is in the White House.

[bluesmann]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&hl=en

[Demian03]

 

1929 was a failure of the free market. 2008 is yet another failure of under-regulated financial markets under the strain of an over-spending war president. George W. Bush

 

 

Last time i checked the president cant spend tax dollars.

 

 

And does anyone actually know what the {censored} is going on, from what i gather from the news is large companys need a bailout because they are being mismanaged, particularly aig who has insurance policys for tons of working americans. The white house is shoving the bailout plan down our throats saying if congress doesn't pass it the economy is {censored}ed. So it would seem that its a combination of a need for federal regulation and the need for people to stop giving there business to mismanaged companies. In a capatialist economy {censored}ty buisnesses are supposed to die not give bilion dollar bonus checks to there ceos.

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

 

This is so wrong it's funny. The depression was EXTENDED by the socialist (or anti-business) policies of Roosevelt. The dumest thing to do in an econominc slowdown is raise taxes and make things harder on business. If you want this slowdown to turn into a drepression, go ahead. Regulate, raise taxes. You wont be selling very many pedals, though, and wont have time to make them. Hope you like gardening.

 

 

New Deal Keynesian (Not Socialism) policies built our infrastructure giving our society and business a foundation to grow on, the return on investment continued until folks began drinking the deregulation koolaide in the 1970s. Waiting for business to invest in infrastructure is a fools game... Name one example where business invest in infrastructure that benefits us all...

 

It makes no sense to dump more money into the hands of the guys who have proven they can't manage money.

[melx]

 

....The economy is not going to collapse.....

 

 

it pretty much has already.

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

 

That was WAYYY out of line.

 

 

Yeah I think so too.

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

FDR never said Social Security is temporary. About his ABC agencies he said, some will work some won't. Not all will be permanent.. Social Security was KEY to his vision of a society free of want and free of need. It provided the means where the old, disabled, and survivors could have a minimum standard of living. Since Reagan we've been putting our hands in that cookie jar, which causes it to not work. I highly doubt FDR imagined Social Security to be short term, since the only way it works is spread over generations.

 

 

Yes, but remarks like that tend to come from those whose arguments have collapsed. Like what? TVA? Social Security? FDR himself only meant these things to be temporary. Af for the dollar being low, so what? Currency values fluctuate. You keep saying things have been reversed and everyone is bitching about deregulation - anyone want to guess which president opened the doors for banking and investment corporations to get in bed with one another? Life must suck to walk around scared of something all the time.

 

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

 

There were posts about Communism. The whole idea that arguing the Soviet Union can't be brought up because it wasn't real Communism is absurd in its face. I, for one, have never said we live in a democracy because we do not. Besides, this splitting hairs type argument just serves to change the focus from the main idea. The economy is not going to collapse, Communism and Socailism will always fail, and people will continue to make and loose money regardless of who is in the White House.

 

 

Soviet Union was a military state with sole focus on economics... No focus on improving the lives of the people in it. A communist state by misdefinition a socialist state in name only. You brought up communism, nobody else did. You did so for one of two reasons, A.) mischaracterize the argument of the otherside. B.) because you see the collapse of the USSR style system as evidence the US economic was right. Ignoring the fact that we started out more wealthy to begin with. Do you conflate capitalism with democracy and the "free market" using the collapse of the USSR as your exclamation point?

 

Again who the hell is talking about Communism and Socialism aside from you?

[skr3ddy]

You keep saying things have been reversed and everyone is bitching about deregulation - anyone want to guess which president opened the doors for banking and investment corporations to get in bed with one another? Life must suck to walk around scared of something all the time.

 

Bill Clinton signed the Phil Gramm bill undoing the Depression-era Glass-Steagall bill. Bill was pretty well known for doing whatever he felt the majority wanted and was just about as conservative fiscally as Reagan. Phil Gramm is McCain's economics guru, as you know. Phil's wife, Wendy, was neck-deep in Enron, along with GW's close, personal friend Ken Lay.

 

But who's walking around scared all the time?

 

Really, there's plenty of blame to throw around, but liberal thought, ideas, and policies certainly have nothing to do the case in point. Those things haven't been used much around Washington over the past 2 or 3 decades...

[bluesmann]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&hl=en

 

47 min video i never knew how it really worked

[Bro Blue]

 

Soviet Union was a military state with sole focus on economics... No focus on improving the lives of the people in it. A communist state by misdefinition a socialist state in name only. You brought up communism, nobody else did. You did so for one of two reasons, A.) mischaracterize the argument of the otherside. B.) because you see the collapse of the USSR style system as evidence the US economic was right. Ignoring the fact that we started out more wealthy to begin with. Do you conflate capitalism with democracy and the "free market" using the collapse of the USSR as your exclamation point? Again who the hell is talking about Communism and Socialism aside from you?

 

 

Go back over this thread. You will see the ideas of Socialism and Communism were not brought up by me, and there have been plenty of people talking about it.

 

And, yes, the USSR failed because we, the USA, bankrupted them through the arms race. Yes, the free market killed them. It is a very sweet exclamation point. We were right then, we're right now. The reason I still talk about Communism and Socialism is because people here keep promoting it as if it will cure the ills of society by caring for the welfare of the people. No government cares about the welfare of the people. The people are the ones who should be looking out for the people. The smaller the government the better.

 

And, if you think FDR meant for social security to be permanent, you have sorely misled.

[melx]

No, it hasn't. Plus - the sun came up today and there's still plenty of food, water, and ammunition to go around. Life is good.

 

[HeartfeltDawn]

 

There were posts about Communism. The whole idea that arguing the Soviet Union can't be brought up because it wasn't real Communism is absurd in its face. I, for one, have never said we live in a democracy because we do not. Besides, this splitting hairs type argument just serves to change the focus from the main idea. The economy is not going to collapse, Communism and Socailism will always fail, and people will continue to make and loose money regardless of who is in the White House.

 

 

 

The {censored} will socialism always fail. Sayign socialism will always fail is as ludicrous as sayign capitalism will always succeed. The common denominator between all faiths, religions, political doctrines, social agendas etc etc etc is the greedy human, whether it's the Catholic priest {censored}ing altar boys, whether it's the Communist leader living in his palace whilst the serfs live in mud, or the greedy Wall Street banker who loved the ego trip of living the financial high life but is now pouring {censored} down his legs in fear at impending redundancy. It is human greed that causes suffering for other humans.

 

The economy is still a long way from collapsing. Personally I hope the US plans are immensely compromised and we lose more financial organisations. It's the only way the Western world will slide back from this greedy peak, stop pushing millions in the hands of {censored}ty actors, stop the 400 channels of digital TV and get back to some real core values that go beyond consumption, purchasing power and ego.

 

The financial problems aren't a Republican issue, a Democrat issue or a Labour Party issue. It's humanity in general. We let the bastards get away with it for far too long. It's up to the electorate to speak up at local level and get that message through to national level.

[melx]

 

......whether it's the Catholic priest {censored}ing altar boys.

 

 

I see on the news another one of those {censored}heads has gone down...3 and a half years is nowhere near enough, scum.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/7634021.stm

 

The court heard that Hart hoarded indecent images of children aged between four and 15.

 

He also collected 270 perverted stories, some recounting incest and some of the images were sadistic in nature.

 

The court heard his wife Juliet Mary Hart, who is 41, was fully aware of her husband's collection.

 

{censored}ing cunts.

[L_Z_nut]

So are you people gonna lend him the money or what?

 

If not, can someone lend me some money?

[Jules-RM]

I'm not really that interested in educating people that should know better, but here's what really happened. This is a simplified version since I'm doing it off the top of my head.

 

Fannie May and Freddie Mac are two very liberal quasi-govermental institutions, that's just the people that run them and who they give to. Obama's campain has more than it's sharel of ex Fannie May people. In the early 2000s they took up the cause of getting people out of rentals and into homes as a "equality" issue. Every American should own their own home, regardless of income, they said. Bush fully approved of this and said the same exact thing.

 

The banks took this to mean that whatever happens, the federal govt is on the hook. Due to the low interest rates, banks started giving out loans (adjustable especially) to just about everyone that asked, regardless of income. The housing market exploded. In 4 short years houses that were going for $150,000 were now going for $450,000. Everyone was happy, except for people like me, who saw this coming a mile away.

 

When the housing bubble did finally burst and prices steadily dropped, banks were left holding a ton of loans that weren't worth what they were at the bubbles height.

 

Banks buy and sell these mortgages all the time. Many of these loans eventually got bought by Fannie and Freddie.

 

The housing market now is a lot different. Foreclosures are fairly common. All those people with low incomes just can't keep up with the payments. No one is buying homes, banks don't want to lend because they are up to their eyeballs in houses no one wants to buy. If interest rates were higher, they would make more money. Banks have operating costs too.

 

No home loans, no car loans, the credit cards aren't doing well either, even though they are gouging all they can with their +20% interest rates. That is where we are now.

 

If nothing gets fixed the economy will retract as the value of the dollar goes down and the cost of basic necessities goes up. People will be worried about EATING, not buying cars or houses... or pedals.

 

The Democrats, Republicans, Bush, Obama, McCain are all at fault. McCain I give a slight pass to, because in 2005 he warned that Fannie and Freddie were going to implode if nothing was done to fix the problem. No one really wanted to listen at the time.

 

This is my last word on the subject, I'm not interested if people disagree with me. That's what happened.

[madryan]

 

I'm not really that interested in educating people that should know better, but here's what really happened. This is a simplified version since I'm doing it off the top of my head. Fannie May and Freddie Mac are two very liberal quasi-govermental institutions, that's just the people that run them and who they give to. Obama's campain has more than it's sharel of ex Fannie May people. In the early 2000s they took up the cause of getting people out of rentals and into homes as a "equality" issue. Every American should own their own home, regardless of income, they said. Bush fully approved of this and said the same exact thing. The banks took this to mean that whatever happens, the federal govt is on the hook. Due to the low interest rates, banks started giving out loans (adjustable especially) to just about everyone that asked, regardless of income. The housing market exploded. In 4 short years houses that were going for $150,000 were now going for $450,000. Everyone was happy, except for people like me, who saw this coming a mile away. When the housing bubble did finally burst and prices steadily dropped, banks were left holding a ton of loans that weren't worth what they were at the bubbles height. Banks buy and sell these mortgages all the time. Many of these loans eventually got bought by Fannie and Freddie. The housing market now is a lot different. Foreclosures are fairly common. All those people with low incomes just can't keep up with the payments. No one is buying homes, banks don't want to lend because they are up to their eyeballs in houses no one wants to buy. If interest rates were higher, they would make more money. Banks have operating costs too. No home loans, no car loans, the credit cards aren't doing well either, even though they are gouging all they can with their +20% interest rates. That is where we are now. If nothing gets fixed the economy will retract as the value of the dollar goes down and the cost of basic necessities goes up. People will be worried about EATING, not buying cars or houses... or pedals. The Democrats, Republicans, Bush, Obama, McCain are all at fault. McCain I give a slight pass to, because in 2005 he warned that Fannie and Freddie were going to implode if nothing was done to fix the problem. No one really wanted to listen at the time. This is my last word on the subject, I'm not interested if people disagree with me. That's what happened.

 

 

Thankyou sir for your informative well reasoned post.

 

Anyone who can actually blame everything on the current administration is a clueless partisan. The President actually has little real power. He can veto prospective laws which can still be passed with broad enough support regardless. He somewhat sets the agenda for the country but his power is exactly whatever the constitution mandates, or the congress lets him have.

 

Hey, it's cool, I don't like Bush, but to blame everything on him (and by extension the republicans) makes you look like an idiot.

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

pointing the finger in times of trouble is a favorite social/cultural pastime.

[skr3ddy]

pointing the finger in times of trouble is a favorite social/cultural pastime.

 

Makes more sense than rewarding the bad actors with $700B of free money.

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

 

And, if you think FDR meant for social security to be permanent, you have sorely misled.

 

 

So FDR imagined Social Security to last only a few years? Thats completely in the face of logic. Why bother with such a program if it didn't guarantee a minimum standard of living for any length of time. Look at what FDR actually said, not what Rush Limbaugh tellls you FDR said...

 

An old English judge once said: "Necessitous men are not free men." Liberty requires opportunity to make a living

[peridot1]

Well don't know if you heard the lastest but McCain seeks to postpone friday's presidential debate. Saying he's needed in washington to help bush fix the economy.

 

Here's my problem with that..

 

What does McCain know about the economy? What can he do now? He hasn't even read Paulson's 3 page bail out proposal yet. He admitted this yesterday. Paulson's proposal has been out what? 3 days now? Congress has already come to an agreement on this bail out and now it's up to the senate and bush.

 

However it's quite convenient cause Obama will nail him on the fact that McCain has been a leading advocate of market deregulation. He has never voted for regulation. This financial crises will be fresh in everyone's mind on friday's debate. This is a time to stand up and show leadership with discussing issues in a debate.

 

He still seeks to postpone it.

[The Great Waldo Pepper]

 

Well don't know if you heard the lastest but McCain seeks to postpone friday's presidential debate. Saying he's needed in washington to help bush fix the economy. Here's my problem with that.. What does McCain know about the economy? What can he do now? He hasn't even read Paulson's 3 page bail out proposal yet. He admitted this yesterday. Paulson's proposal has been out what? 3 days now? Congress has already come to an agreement on this bail out and now it's up to the senate and bush. However it's quite convenient cause Obama will nail him on the fact that McCain has been a leading advocate of market deregulation. He has never voted for regulation. This financial crises will be fresh in everyone's mind on friday's debate. This is a time to stand up and show leadership with discussing issues in a debate. He still seeks to postpone it.

 

 

Because:

 

[YOUTUBE]bogh_sp5SE0[/YOUTUBE]

 

- Sen. McCain:

[jorhay1]

 

Well don't know if you heard the lastest but McCain seeks to postpone friday's presidential debate. Saying he's needed in washington to help bush fix the economy. Here's my problem with that.. What does McCain know about the economy? What can he do now? He hasn't even read Paulson's 3 page bail out proposal yet. He admitted this yesterday. Paulson's proposal has been out what? 3 days now? Congress has already come to an agreement on this bail out and now it's up to the senate and bush. However it's quite convenient cause Obama will nail him on the fact that McCain has been a leading advocate of market deregulation. He has never voted for regulation. This financial crises will be fresh in everyone's mind on friday's debate. This is a time to stand up and show leadership with discussing issues in a debate. He still seeks to postpone it.

 

 

both Mac and 'Bama are in washington working jointly

with both sides of the isle and bush to work on fixing

paulsen and bernanke's proposal since no one likes it.

 

Reid and the dems are making a big stink about how

Mac should'nt be there because:blah: of course.

 

imho

politically it was dumb for Mac to make such a big

deal about how he is simply going back to work.

and is probably political suicide to delay the debate.

 

Although people said the same thing about Palin.

And that worked out well for him.

 

So far it's just made Mac look weird.

 

again imho

 

_________________________

Charach Obarkley '08