Members amp_surgeon Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 Free Market but no Freedom of Criticism just ends up with overpriced trendy iProducts up the wazoo. People will not have access to a full spectrum of information to help them decide if they should pay money for that product - if they see it's popular despite the price, they'll assume it's worth the buck. If people are criticising the high price, then they can make a more informed decision. Basically what some of the right wing idiots on this forum want is for people to be uninformed and make uninformed choices.It's the finger waggers that keep these kind of pedal makers in check. I'm not saying Zvex is a horrible person, but at the same time, people have every right to criticise him or anyone else. Personally I love a lot of Devi Ever's pedals, but I would not stop someone from saying "All this {censored}e sounds the same!", that's their opinion and they're entitled to it.Voting with your feet sounds great, but the whole point of good marketing is to rope people into things - that's one good reason why we have every right to say "Yo man, I think it'd be fair if you knocked a few bob off your fancy noise boxes". One person not buying a product makes no difference to the overall market. Of course. Criticize away. That's your right. But if you exercise that right in an effort to either steer potential customers away from a product, or extort the manufacturer to change his business model to accommodate your personal budget, don't be surprised if the business owner (and others) speak up in their own defense. Freedom of speech also goes both ways. BTW, I'm not accusing you or anyone else of doing what I describe in the previous paragraph. I'm simply saying that if you have the right to accuse a manufacturer of price gouging, then he has a right to defend himself. My point was that a lot of the complaints come in the form of "you're charging too damn much", when after analysis it becomes clear that the one making the accusations doesn't really understand what it costs to get that product to market, and so doesn't really know how much is "too damned much". Any you're right that one buyer doesn't make much difference to the manufacturer, but an awful lot of people come to places like HC for advice on what to buy. I think you'd be surprised just how many people are influenced by what people say here. If you think the price of a product is too high, and you can back the manufacturer into a corner without a defense, then you have a pretty good chance of getting him to drop his prices. In this particular case, I think Zach has done his homework, and knows what works for his business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boytbpc Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 You don't like the price of the pedal? Don't buy it. How dare you question his prices. I have never owned a zvex pedal and I don't intend to. Matter of fact, I'm not even sure I like the guy all that much from what I know of him on these forums. But I will defend his right to charge as much $$$ as he wants for his work. I'm sure he'll sleep just fine tonight whether or not you buy his {censored}. I can't stand when people do this {censored}. You see it on Craigslist all the time. "To the guy asking x amount of dollars for that (blank)..." You can't afford it. Get over it. I can't afford it either. I'm over it. How dare we question the prices? How DARE we? What kind of bull{censored} {censored}ing sentence is that? Question everything! Jesus christ, you deserve a big {censored}ing facepalm on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rena Rune Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 Of course. Criticize away. That's your right. But if you exercise that right in an effort to either steer potential customers away from a product, or extort the manufacturer to change his business model to accommodate your personal budget, don't be surprised if the business owner (and others) speak up in their own defense. Freedom of speech also goes both ways. It does, but there's no point even mentioning the concept of Freedom of Speech if there's no way to attack it. Labelling people as "haters" is a good way to attack someone's opinion as opposed to "speaking up" Zvex has every right to justify his prices, the problem is that he seems unable to do so without putting other people down. Someone can have fantastic care for their employees, but if he doesn't follow through with respect for other people, then it's hard to see it as anything but bragging rights, or standing up for "your team" rather than being respectful on a wider scale. If I were a mod here, I wouldn't personally allow Zvex to rant about "haters". I would certainly allow him to justify the prices behind his products, but what he's doing is flat out flaming and on occasion borderline baiting/trolling. My point was that a lot of the complaints come in the form of "you're charging too damn much", when after analysis it becomes clear that the one making the accusations doesn't really understand what it costs to get that product to market, and so doesn't really know how much is "too damned much". A lot of people defending the prices don't understand how the market works either, people do at least in theory have bargaining power, it's just that in a world dominated by right wing economics and the higher classes, it's not something we excercise often. Again, it's one that in my country really screwed us over, we have poor services and nobody does anything about it. Our government is overpaid, our businessmen are way overpaid, and our country is gone to crap. but an awful lot of people come to places like HC for advice on what to buy. I think you'd be surprised just how many people are influenced by what people say here. This is exactly my point - if it's the popular consensus that there is no such thing as overcharging, people won't think twice about paying high prices. That's why I'll fight very strongly to have my opinion heard - it's an active forum and I'm likely to influence hundreds of people. If you think the price of a product is too high, and you can back the manufacturer into a corner without a defense, then you have a pretty good chance of getting him to drop his prices. In this particular case, I think Zach has done his homework, and knows what works for his business. You do, but the problem is Zach is using dirty tactics by rallying people against the "haters". If you've ever been to any Transformers related messageboards, the execs behind the movie pulled the same tactic to stop the fans spreading potentially harmful negative press. Destroyed the community, of course, since you now have no real freedom to complain about it. If Zvex could knock this off, then I wouldn't have a problem with him or the idea of buying his pedals. But he'd need to apologise to all the people he put down for. Before the age of the internet, if he did what he's doing now, he'd likely chase away most of his business. On the internet, it's acceptable to be an ass and even a complete sociopath(see: 4chan spinoffs) as long as you're popular and keep on the good side of the moderators. I really, really wish he would, as there are some of his pedals I like, but ethically, I can't justify buying them. If there was enough pressure on him from HCFX it'd be likely, but just me and one or two others ranting won't achieve much, we're just "haters", not real human beings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AuttumAttic Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 On the internet, it's acceptable to be an ass and even a complete sociopath. Yet your still going at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rena Rune Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 Yet your still going at it. At what exactly? :| The internet? You forget I don't follow the pointless defeatist "If you don't like it, just don't go near it and leave it to become even worse" mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SingLoco Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 Well ................. Why would he lower them prices now?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rena Rune Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 I think he should just make pedals like the Ooh Wah available in Vexter versions, and also I would knock a little off the Box of Metal to make it more appealing - sure it has the crazy noise gate, but there are actually some decent metal in a pedal solutions now that don't need those, plus you could buy an AD30VT which has some great metal tones for that price, heck you could buy a HT-5. The BoM could have been a classic at a lower price point. The main thing though again isn't the fact that he's charging high prices, it's that he's calling anyone who doesn't like them "haters". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ATauO Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 The main thing though again isn't the fact that he's charging high prices, it's that he's calling anyone who doesn't like them "haters". I don't see any problem with charging whatever you want for something, unless your price gouging a sole sourced item. I live in the Gulf Coast, I have seen $10 bottles of water during hurricanes- and when your the only store in a small ass town with no running water, they get away with it. There are hundreds of pedal makers that have prices both well below and well above Zvex, and you have the ability to decide where you spend your money, and in the end you decide if its worth the money. Welcome to democracy. Everyone is tired of hearing how poor you are, and how you can't save money for something you want, and if your complaining about the price tag and DON'T want something from VEX, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rena Rune Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 Did you even read the post you were quoting? Come on.The main thing though again isn't the fact that he's charging high prices, it's that he's calling anyone who doesn't like them "haters".Welcome to democracy. That's just incorrect on so many levels. Also, a true free market would allow for more clones, which Zvex hates anyway. The minute there's a decent cheaper alternative to the Ooh Wah, I'll buy that instead. Yeah it's "his" idea, but it's just a combation of the Step Phaser and LFO auto-wah effect anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dZjupp Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 This thread is a perfect example of the lack of respect in today's society. Who are you people to judge how a guy makes a living and provides for family and his workers? Do you want to tax Zvex on top of what the gov does so you can "share in his wealth"? nothing sounds like a Zvex pedal, thus, he can "charge" whatever the heck he wants. if any of you get a great idea or corner a market let me know and i will chastise you for it on a internet forum:facepalm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Collapse Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 Just go read one of the old threads about this. Also, a true free market would allow for more clones, which Zvex hates anyway. The minute there's a decent cheaper alternative to the Ooh Wah, I'll buy that instead. Yeah it's "his" idea, but it's just a combation of the Step Phaser and LFO auto-wah effect anyway. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RUExp? Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 When are we going to see a Box of Vox pedal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Agreed Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 When are we going to see a Box of Vox pedal?Unrelated note - given that the Box of Rock(s) has a bunch of SHOs running into eachother to get the creamy saturation that it has, I always thought it would be funny if someone made a clone and called it the Box of Cox But not if they were going to sell it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members prodrigu Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 to do the right thing by employing US workers and paying them decent wages/benefits," and then to hedge your bets by just saying "oh, and if I'm wrong about that it doesn't change my point." I disagree with the basic premise that a company is crooked if they hire overseas, as well, so before anyone jumps down my throat (might be too late for that) I'd like to make it clear, again, that I'm not objecting to Zvex's practices in any sense, especially relative to the economic reality of a globalized economy. What were Zvex choices ? 1 - Continue doing of what I think it's best by employing people both in the US and overseas, growing his business and try to make his costumers happy 2 - Continue in his garage (or wherever he was) and become a globalization activist, iada, iada, iada 3 - Move his operations overseas and try to take on big businesses 4 - Put more options here... Whatever you final choice will be I will respect your point of view. Mine is option number 1 because I think he is doing the best he can to be a straight company not only promoting his own personal growth but also ofhis employees to the best he can. PS: Apologies if I make mistakes with my English but this is not my first language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ninjaaron Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 mang. I wish I could have gotten in on page 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rena Rune Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 This thread is a perfect example of the lack of respect in today's society.Who are you people to judge how a guy makes a living and provides for family and his workers? Do you want to tax Zvex on top of what the gov does so you can "share in his wealth"?nothing sounds like a Zvex pedal, thus, he can "charge" whatever the heck he wants.if any of you get a great idea or corner a market let me know and i will chastise you for it on a internet forum:facepalm: Excuse me, I'm not the one calling people "haters" because they find my product a bit pricey. Not only that you go write for the strawman, implying we're all communists just because we find some pedals expensive for what they are. Your definition of "respect" is screwed up beyond belief. Zvex doesn't have to respect those that disagree with them, and also as part of "respect" people have no right to criticise him? Quite frankly there are well reasoned opinions, and then there are low-intellect ideas. You just have right wing economics so hardwired into your brain it over-rides all other ideas of "Freedom". Your concept of respect is balanced far too towards those making money rather than those giving it, it does not consider the idea that the businessman has to have any respect for those who's mentalities clash with his own. It is important to respect people as human beings and not financial entities. If I come up with an idea and sell it, then people have every right to criticise it or my attitude towards it, they're only jerks if their opinions are demonstratably unfair; which yours is, by the way, and vastly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bennintexas Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 suckz to be p00r d03snt it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rdm Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 When are we going to see a Box of Vox pedal?or a Box of Bluez or Box of Br00talz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rdm Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 It's threads like this that build buzz about a product, causing peole to buy, driving demand higher and thus raising prices. If you don't want zvex to raise prices.....quit starting threads about his stuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RUExp? Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 mang. I wish I could have gotten in on page 1. I'm sure that would have made all the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ninjaaron Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 I'm sure that would have made all the difference. No, just to say 'in' don't give a {censored} about the content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bennintexas Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 No, just to say 'in'don't give a {censored} about the content. i think his comment still rings true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zachary vex Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 I know I said I wasn't going to post in this thread again, but I have an opportunity to point out something here. Take a good look at this person's post. Rena quotes me, then claims I said something which I have never said nor implied, then attacks me for it.This fallacy is called "straw man." You misrepresent your opponent's position, then attack him for your own misrepresentation. It serves only to inflame and incite hatred. It's one of the most trollish activities that takes place on this forum, and it's nearly always the HCFXKC behind it. It should be a bannable offense, if it isn't already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ninjaaron Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 i think his comment still rings true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ATauO Posted March 26, 2009 Members Share Posted March 26, 2009 To review what we have all learned over and over and over in every thread about Zvex prices: 1. Charge whatever you want, people will either buy it or they won't. So if you want it, then buy it; if not, buy something else, no one really cares. 2. Value is in the eye of the owner. If it costs $20 bucks to make but people buy it for $325... SELL THAT SHIZ FOR $325. Your in business to make money or you wouldn't be in business. - 3. Sucks to be poor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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