ZVEX why the high prices?

[stevesherbert]

one of the reasons that boutique items cost more is for the simple fact that if they were cheaper, then everyone would have them and they wouldn't be 'boutique' anymore.

[byekittie]

I wanna know when is vex coming up with a delay.

[seifukusha]

I wanna know when is vex coming up with a delay.

 

 

so does everyone else. a delay and an whammy (thats about it right? and both in a probe format)

[cutlerman]

think about it though... zvex pedals have higher labor costs in the usa pedals than other brands of pedals. each one is hand painted. he has to pay the artist on top of paying for the parts, overhead, marketing costs, research and development, etc.

sure he is making a profit; but if he didn't make a profit he wouldn't be in business and be able to make pedals.

[Jeremy Skrenes]

Zach has a fantastic business model because people keep buying his products, but he can't be too surprised when people keep cloning them as well. Still he's obviously done his sums and even with the clones, he obviously thinks it's better to sell fewer pedals at a higher price than more pedals at a lower price and as long as people will pay it who can argue with him?

 

 

The question is, would lowering prices transition the buyers of clone pedals to buyers of Zvex pedals? Probably not.

[zachary vex]

If you total up all the money I made (in personal income) during the first five years of operating my business, it doesn't even equal the total I paid just in property taxes for my commercial building last year. That's just one expense. When you're unaware of what it costs to do business, you can reach grossly erroneous conclusions regarding what pricing should be. Scale of economy comes into play at a business size much larger than mine. Pedal makers that price too low are unable to sustain or grow their businesses. That's just a fact. Eventually they realize they've been burning the candle at both ends for too many years and they've got squat to show for it.

 

I'm introducing lower-priced pedals. I'm doing my part to help in troubled times. Check 'em out, and let me know what you think.

 

My greatest responsibility is to my employees and their families. My full-timers get free health insurance, matching funds on their medical savings accounts, vacation time, personal time, strong living wages, a beautiful working environment, and a hell of a lot of flexibility. I also provide lifetime warranties that are fully transferable to my end users of our hand-painted products. That means you can buy a hand-painted fuzz factory on eBay and if it doesn't work, all you have to pay is shipping to get it fixed. Do you realize what that does for resale value? Buying a used ZVEX Effect is not risky. You can generally flip it for as much (or sometimes more) than you paid for it, even if it was broken when you received it!

 

My customer service is pretty much legendary, if I do say so myself. Despite the crap you see posted on this forum from haters who don't like my politics or my attitude toward cloners, etc, my service to customers is approximately 16 hours per day. I answer each email individually. I don't use any form letters... I just type up individualized replies to each question, and address every concern as best I can. I also redirect everyone's repair requests to the proper email addresses and handle dealer questions and applications. This is on top of operating my business and posting occasionally in here (averaging 1.67 posts per day). While I was typing this post, I answered nine emails regarding product service and questions. This business is often my entire waking life, from the moment I get up to the moment I crash. It's only recently that I've purposefully scheduled my weekends to spend with my girlfriend, and I'm very lucky that she spends a fair amount of time online so I don't feel terribly guilty answering emails around her.

 

I hope that answers your questions to some degree. I won't post again in this thread, but if you want to know something else, drop me a line. You can contact me via my site.

[jgyn]

Love Zvex's stuff. Unique in nature, especially the Probes. Couldn't care less about the price of parts, like I don't care that my Fender Telecaster's maybe $70 in raw materials. If something I want is expensive, I go cheap on my meals.

[Wolfboy1]

Nice post Mr. Zvex. I wouldn't think there's much more to say. If you want one save up and get it in 6 months....you will appreciate it more that way too:thu:

[Jeremy Skrenes]

Mr. Vex, I do not agree with your politics, but I appreciate your business model. I think I've said it before, but it bears repeating: I don't currently own a ZVex pedal, but if one of yours were to meet my needs, I'd buy yours over a clone.

 

And speaking of builders who underprice, I've found a few sites that sell clones and loopers at bargain-basement prices, emailed them to get a quote and got a response back that they're out of business. Pedals that are too cheap can't support the builders.

[Blungo]

Good post Z.

Related to nothing, i just recently traded for a fuzz factory (my second if you don't count the fuzz probe that i had for a while).

I'm really enjoying it. I didn't like my first FF so much (made in 2000?) but i'm really digging this 2004 unit. I don't know if it's due to variability of the trannys or if my ears/perception have changed, but this one is a winner in my book. Miss the fuzz probe a bit as well...

[prodrigu]

Many people complain about companies taking their business outside the US. When some straight company tries to do the right thing (in my opinion) by employing US workers and paying them decent wages/benefits we also complain because it is too expensive ?

 

Do like myself, don't have the money so don't buy it :-) (but also don't complain)

 

Maybe these cheaper ZVex pedals are mode somewhere else but that does not change the point that I made.

[Agreed]

 

Many people complain about companies taking their business outside the US. When some straight company tries to do the right thing (in my opinion) by employing US workers and paying them decent wages/benefits we also complain because it is too expensive ? Do like myself, don't have the money so don't buy it :-) (but also don't complain) Maybe these cheaper ZVex pedals are mode somewhere else but that does not change the point that I made.

 

 

The cheaper Zvex pedals are made overseas by workers who are certainly compensated far less, with likely no tangible benefits by way of comparison. Global economic reality, but imo it does change the point you made because in this case he's doing both the U.S.A. thing and the overseas thing. He's said before at different times that his overseas operations allow him to hire more U.S. workers, which doesn't mean all that much to me to be honest as it's basically saying that for the small price of dumping in someone else's yard, we can have an even prettier yard here - rather misses the point, and anyway I think it confuses means and ends, as he's certainly not hiring people just for the sake of hiring them, he's hiring people because demand is such that he needs more hands on the job in order to make money. If the equation ever changes, though I'm sure it would be with a heavy heart as being a small operation he probably has a close relationship with his employees, I imagine he'd fire people before sinking Zvex Effects, just as any other business owner would do - sometimes the warm fuzzy feeling is an epiphenomenon to the business reality.

 

And regarding the logic of making pedals overseas in order to employ more people domestically, again I think that's an epiphenomenal perk to the underlying, straightforward business decision that if he wants to exploit the available market niches better, he needed to have lower cost pedals as well, and the high volume/low price manufacturing available there due to lax regulations and extremely cheap labor could not be matched here at his desirable profit margin. Which isn't to say that he doesn't appreciate the fact that he can hire more domestic labor for his operation, but again it's important to keep an honest accounting of means and ends.

 

Edit: I realize there is some language in this post that was stronger than I really intended, especially the part about "dumping in someone else's yard." I could have picked a better way to express what I meant, which was only that there's no way given the economic realities of globalization that his Taiwanese workers could be compensated like his American workers - if it was costing him as much to outsource as it would to hire American workers, I don't imagine he'd go through the hassle for no reason. That isn't at all to say that they are slaves or mistreated, which I think I unintentionally implied in my post, so on that count I think I owe Zvex an apology. I don't think of globalization as evil and I don't think of businessmen as bastards in any sense. Zvex shouldn't be faulted for making good business decisions in the economic system we inhabit, and his choice of Taiwan over China (for example) says that he is concerned about what goes on where his goods are made. But I do think that there is a problem of having one's cake and eating it too, and that it isn't accurate, prodrigu, to only say that Zvex is "some straight company [trying] to do the right thing by employing US workers and paying them decent wages/benefits," and then to hedge your bets by just saying "oh, and if I'm wrong about that it doesn't change my point." I disagree with the basic premise that a company is crooked if they hire overseas, as well, so before anyone jumps down my throat (might be too late for that) I'd like to make it clear, again, that I'm not objecting to Zvex's practices in any sense, especially relative to the economic reality of a globalized economy.

[damacy]

[lfrz93]

Falcon got pwned

If you total up all the money I made (in personal income) during the first five years of operating my business, it doesn't even equal the total I paid just in property taxes for my commercial building last year. That's just one expense. When you're unaware of what it costs to do business, you can reach grossly erroneous conclusions regarding what pricing should be. Scale of economy comes into play at a business size much larger than mine. Pedal makers that price too low are unable to sustain or grow their businesses. That's just a fact. Eventually they realize they've been burning the candle at both ends for too many years and they've got squat to show for it. I'm introducing lower-priced pedals. I'm doing my part to help in troubled times. Check 'em out, and let me know what you think. My greatest responsibility is to my employees and their families. My full-timers get free health insurance, matching funds on their medical savings accounts, vacation time, personal time, strong living wages, a beautiful working environment, and a hell of a lot of flexibility. I also provide lifetime warranties that are fully transferable to my end users of our hand-painted products. That means you can buy a hand-painted fuzz factory on eBay and if it doesn't work, all you have to pay is shipping to get it fixed. Do you realize what that does for resale value? Buying a used ZVEX Effect is not risky. You can generally flip it for as much (or sometimes more) than you paid for it, even if it was broken when you received it! My customer service is pretty much legendary, if I do say so myself. Despite the crap you see posted on this forum from haters who don't like my politics or my attitude toward cloners, etc, my service to customers is approximately 16 hours per day. I answer each email individually. I don't use any form letters... I just type up individualized replies to each question, and address every concern as best I can. I also redirect everyone's repair requests to the proper email addresses and handle dealer questions and applications. This is on top of operating my business and posting occasionally in here (averaging 1.67 posts per day). While I was typing this post, I answered nine emails regarding product service and questions. This business is often my entire waking life, from the moment I get up to the moment I crash. It's only recently that I've purposefully scheduled my weekends to spend with my girlfriend, and I'm very lucky that she spends a fair amount of time online so I don't feel terribly guilty answering emails around her. I hope that answers your questions to some degree. I won't post again in this thread, but if you want to know something else, drop me a line. You can contact me via my site.

[Seth Carmody]

The cheaper Zvex pedals are made overseas by workers who are certainly compensated far less, with likely no tangible benefits by way of comparison. Global economic reality, but imo it does change the point you made because in this case he's doing both the U.S.A. thing and the overseas thing. He's said before at different times that his overseas operations allow him to hire more U.S. workers, which doesn't mean all that much to me to be honest as it's basically saying that for the small price of dumping in someone else's yard, we can have an even prettier yard here - rather misses the point, and anyway I think it confuses means and ends, as he's certainly not hiring people just for the sake of hiring them, he's hiring people because demand is such that he needs more hands on the job in order to make money.

 

 

Fair enough, although I think before we condemn such practices we should ask the Taiwanese workers whether they'd prefer to be out of a job than suffer the humiliation of earning less than an American equivalent.

[thunderpuppy]

christ-- every piece of gear we own cost us much more than the sum total of the parts used to make said gear. I'd like to weigh the value people place on their beloved Stratocasters relatively with the handmade quality that's come up in defense of Frantone prices on this forum recently.

 

That said-- when we buy independent pedalmakers' gear, we are generally buying innovative designs, not just a collection of parts. Complain all you like, but if you want to buy a ZVex Woolly Mammoth, it's because no other pedal sounds like the Woolly Mammoth (and it is a unique sounding pedal)-- you're either willing to pay for that sound or you're not. It has {censored}-all to do with the builder's politics or the analysis of the pedal's components... same with any fx pedal.

[MrChrisos]

Ok, we know better than this. You pay for a pile of parts, you get a pile of parts. I'm not going to go into estimates on cost of labour, shipping of materials, etc, etc. But I will say this:

If you want to build the Woolly Mammoth, you might just save some money (depending on what your time etc is worth to you).
But if you invent the Woolly Mammoth, then you can charge whatever you think is right for it.

I love my Loop Junky. Without Zvex it wouldn't exist. I knew it would be great for my sound, but it seemed like a lot of money.
I take my music very seriously, and I knew this would be something that could help give a real edge to my sound. So I took the plunge.
I've never regretted spending the money, I use it even more than I thought I would, recording and live. Fantastic pedal.

[White Falcon]

Who are they?

they're from this porno:

[NetStar]

[mrweems]

{censored} zvex and his pedals!

 

[Rena Rune]

I dunno, I don't feel Zvex stuff is as "high end" as other boutique stuff. A lot of the cost goes into hiring the artist, there should be more Vexter stuff. I kind of like the Ooh Wah but I don't want to pay those kind of prices, and seeing how Zvex posts in some threads here and on that other forum puts me off too.

I see a lot of arguments about this sort of thing on 4chan's /toy/ board. I think unfortunately it's deeply engrained in american culture that Profiteering is a positive thing, whereas other cultures see people who overcharge as scumbags. Of course now everywhere is being consumed in US culture things are going funny. I could be generalising a bit much since I'm angry after following one of these arguments that was blatantly US vs. European mentality, but a lot of americans don't realise that some people just don't see charging any price for any product as a positive thing, that there's a bigger picture here that's not just "Free Market".

My country honestly is also terrible for profiteering, worse than US, and it ruined us. If you don't stand up and say "Hey, I don't think this should cost as much as it does", then that happens. You're entitled to say that. Some people seem to think "Freedom" is the freedom to charge what you like, but not the freedom to criticise people for doing so. From what I've seen of past threads Zvex tears into people who disagree with his pricing, which puts me off. Nobody's forcing him to charge less, but they should be entitled to feel his products are overpriced without being accused of being a pinko commie. I wouldn't have a problem with him if he was respectful of those that don't like that kind of thing.

[AuttumAttic]

to do the right thing by employing US workers and paying them decent wages/benefits," and then to hedge your bets by just saying "oh, and if I'm wrong about that it doesn't change my point." I disagree with the basic premise that a company is crooked if they hire overseas, as well, so before anyone jumps down my throat (might be too late for that) I'd like to make it clear, again, that I'm not objecting to Zvex's practices in any sense, especially relative to the economic reality of a globalized economy.

STFUFC

[amp_surgeon]

The great thing about a free market is that the freedom goes both ways. The seller is free to ask whatever price they like, and the buyer is free to walk away if they don't like the price. For the buyer, this is pretty cut and dried - buy the product, or keep walking. For the seller, it's a balancing act. If the price is too low, his profits won't be able to pay his bills and sustain the growth of his business. If his prices are too high, nobody will buy his products. Either way, his business will fail. Finding the price point to establish and sustain a business is difficult, and I think Zach's done a really good job in this regard, as evidenced by the fact that people DO buy his pedals, and his business is successful.

He's found a business model that works, and he's got a lot of happy customers. I don't see how you can fault him on this.

I think the reason that this price vs. cost argument keeps coming up is because there is a lot of DIY in the pedal products business - something that doesn't exist to a large degree in most other industries. When you build a fuzz pedal from a kit, and you compare the total on the sales receipt with what you'd have paid for a boutique pedal of the same variety, it's easy to come to the conclusion that the boutique pedal is overpriced. To get a more realistic sense of the cost, try factoring in what your labor would cost for the time you spent building that kit, presuming you got a living wage for that time. Add to this what your prorated mortgage or rent would be for that time. Add another 20% to cover indirect costs, like bookeeping, customer support, and janitorial services. Finally, add 35% for the retailer who is going to sell that product for you. I think you'll find that there is a lot more invested in that pedal in the display case at your local music shop than simply the sum total cost of the parts.

[Rena Rune]

You don't like the price of the pedal? Don't buy it. How dare you question his prices. .

 

 

This is exactly the {censored} I'm talking about. Apparently "Freedom" only applies to overcharging and not to having an opinion on a commercial product. It's like some people are so whipped by the upper classes they only protect the freedoms that {censored} them in the ass.

 

 

The great thing about a free market is that the freedom goes both ways. The seller is free to ask whatever price they like, and the buyer is free to walk away if they don't like the price.

 

 

The great thing about freedom of speech is that people are also free to criticise those prices to begin, if they feel they are inappropriate for the product being sold.

 

Free Market but no Freedom of Criticism just ends up with overpriced trendy iProducts up the wazoo. People will not have access to a full spectrum of information to help them decide if they should pay money for that product - if they see it's popular despite the price, they'll assume it's worth the buck. If people are criticising the high price, then they can make a more informed decision. Basically what some of the right wing idiots on this forum want is for people to be uninformed and make uninformed choices.

 

It's the finger waggers that keep these kind of pedal makers in check. I'm not saying Zvex is a horrible person, but at the same time, people have every right to criticise him or anyone else. Personally I love a lot of Devi Ever's pedals, but I would not stop someone from saying "All this {censored}e sounds the same!", that's their opinion and they're entitled to it.

 

Voting with your feet sounds great, but the whole point of good marketing is to rope people into things - that's one good reason why we have every right to say "Yo man, I think it'd be fair if you knocked a few bob off your fancy noise boxes". One person not buying a product makes no difference to the overall market.

[Rena Rune]

Ok, you're right, that was a bit over the top. But seriously- ok, I want a $100,000.00 BMW so maybe if I whine about it long enough they'll lower the price to $5,000.00? Doubt it. Here's an idea- learn how to build pedals. Then you can build whatever you want and you'll only pay the price of the parts. Who knows, maybe one day you'll be selling pedals and some kid will cry about your prices...

Honestly, your attitude is so much what's wrong with just about everything at the moment. Not buying a product will do nothing, at least if you whine about it on some forum, a bunch of other guys might join in, and if the pedal maker/car manufacturer goes to the forum and see they risk loosing business, then yes, they may lower the prices. I have seen some toy manufacturers on toy forums {censored}ed out of higher prices on a rare occasion.

If I sell pedals, then of course I'm open to criticism. I am putting a product out on the market, making myself known, and I'm open to people having an opinion on me and my product. Some of those opinions may be very unfair and maybe shouldn't be shared, but if they're never gotten out in the air to begin with like you want, then we can't know if they're fair or not.

I guess it's your choice whether you want to be a consumer with no power or a trend setter with a little more than none. But don't please don't spread this mindless filth and then act as if we have no power over prices - of course we do, we're the market. The reason this power is rarely excercised is because there are so many people like you making us think we have no right to. In a "Free Market", the consumer should have power.

Your mentality is just part of the insitution that protects the wealthy from any kind of fault. If someone is making loads of money, even if he has "happy customers", we are still entitled to criticise his product at least as much as he is entitled to sell it.

Zvex may very well not be rolling in the cash, due to the overheads involved in manufacturing. But people still have the right to point out the possibility, and otherwise criticise high prices - there could be someone else involved after all in the inflated prices, and they're the ones that need to be {censored}ed out of it, but if we don't even talk about it, we can't know that. The point is that people should be entitled to their opinion regardless, as long as it has some vaguely logical basis(which again we can't know until we discuss it properly).

Despite the crap you see posted on this forum from haters who don't like my politics or my attitude toward cloners, etc, my service to customers is approximately 16 hours per day.

This is the problem right here - people who don't agree with his prices are "haters". He has to give them a demeaning label, which is what {censored}s everything up right off the bat. I just can't respect a guy like that, no matter how good his costumer service is, if he feels the need to drive this point in then it's just ego-stroking anyway. Yes, he's entitled to his "opinion", but in this case he's just trying to erradicate other people's opinions by making that position unpopular.