Anybody using a buffer pedal on their board?

[macadood]

and even more:

 

I have a question. What exactley is the purpose of a buffer? Does it get back some of the tone thats lost if your running lots of pedals? or what? and do I need one if Im running like 25 effects? from the cae website 3. What are buffers and how are they used? Buffers are extremely important in a multi-component system. They are often misunderstood and often get a bad rap by those who are uninformed. In a CAE system, a buffer is a unity gain (input level equals output level) impedance converting circuit. It essentially protects your high impedance guitar output (or any other high impedance source, such as an amps' effects loop send) from being loaded down by the input it is connected to. In effect, it converts high impedance to low, which means subsequent stages are then driven by a low impedance source (the buffer's output). High impedance sources such as your guitar's output (assuming you have passive pickups) has very little current drive capability and it's signal is subject to a harsh environment once it leaves the guitar. You already know the adverse affect a long cable has on your tone. Same thing happens if you pass your signal through a bunch of effects pedals. Even if they have "true bypass" (an ugly, over-used term), each one will suck a little more of your signal along with the cables and connectors, mainly due to capacitive loading of your high impedance guitar signal. The end result is a muffled weak signal that lacks clarity. But once your high impedance guitar signal hits a properly designed buffer with a high input impedance, the buffer takes over, and uses its higher current capability (remember, its an active circuit that requires a power supply) to drive all subsequent stages, thus preserving your instrument's tone. This brings us to buffer quality. Buffers come in all types of designs, from discrete transistor, op-amp, to esoteric tube designs. All have their own unique sonic stamp. At CAE we use the op-amp approach. It has served us well for years, is low noise, and is extremely transparent to our ears. Buffers often get blamed for causing an overly bright sound, but we feel if its designed properly, any perceived "brightness" is because now the guitar is not being loaded down by subsequent stages! Buffers can cause problems, too. There are some effects devices that don't like to see the low output impedance of a buffer. These are typically discrete transistor designed fuzz circuits (such as the Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face). They react better to the high impedance output of the guitar. In fact, the guitar output, cable and input stage of the Fuzz Face complete a circuit that is highly dependent of those 3 components to work correctly. Fuzz Faces clean up nicely when you roll back the guitar volume control... not so if a buffer is between the guitar and Fuzz Face input. So if you have a pedal board with a Fuzz Face on it , put it first! Other pedals may react the same way. Experiment to see what works best for you. Keep in mind all active pedals (such as Boss, Ibanez, etc...) act as buffers and will impart their own sonic stamp even when bypassed. This is what started the whole "true bypass" (ugh! that term again) craze. See? Too much of a good thing can be "bad". Which brings us to how we utilize buffers in CAE custom switchers. We only use buffers where absolutely necessary. Typically, in a pedal based system we will not buffer until after the first 4-5 loops, which is usually just prior to sending the signal down to the pedal board (via a long cable run, hence the need to buffer) to hit the wah/volume pedals. Any more than 4 or 5 loops, and the guitar signal may be affected by capacitive loading. So the first few loops is where you would put any impedance sensitive effects. This also means your guitar will go through fuzz, overdrive or distortion pedals BEFORE the wah. We prefer this order because the wah then has a more harmonically rich signal to filter. Try it yourself. Of course, if a specific order is required, we will do everything we can to make it happen. Buffers are also necessary to drive isolation transformers, since the relatively low primary impedance of the transformers may be detrimental to whatever circuit is feeding it. This is also why amp splitter circuits must be buffered. You can't drive multiple amps with a relatively high impedance source. So there usually is a buffer somewhere in the output stage of your custom switcher. That's usually it. 2 places minimum. There may be more active stages depending on your system requirements.

 

[AJ Nash]

 

and aparently fuzzes dont liek buffers...you guys with buffers find that??

 

 

There's a lot of variation when it comes to fuzz pedals. It's definitely not true to generalise that "fuzzes dont liek buffers". Some are ok, some aren't.

[macadood]

hmmm....so does everyone here have their fuzzes first in the loop? even before wah and comp?

 

so from what i understand...most if not all Boss...pedals have buffers built into them? so whats the point of a separate buffer? (do they just have {censored}ty buffers? from what i read their impedence is down to like 1k ohms, low impedence is considered 200 ohms...other pedals impedence is around 10k ohms.)

 

 

anyone know if mxr pedals are buffered?

 

 

 

honestly i think this is all just a waste, at least for me. my tone doesnt seem to be too affected by my pedals, nothing noticeable to me at least, much less to anyone else.

hella confusing business about buffers either way...

[AJ Nash]

hmmm....so does everyone here have their fuzzes first in the loop? even before wah and comp?

 

Some fuzzes react differently to the signal you put into it. Something like a Fuzz Face or a Tonebender (basically a fuzz face with a buffer in the signal path) will work better when they're first in the chain.

 

EDIT: I have my Tonebender Mk1 first, before my compressor.

[roquero]

-from TGP archives also and aparently fuzzes dont liek buffers...you guys with buffers find that??

 

depends on the fuzz- my Subdecay Flying Tomato Fuzz has a switchable buffer on it, so it can be placed anywhere in the chain- just like the Fromel Shape EQ

 

I love it when pedal makers include those features- thumbs up for Fromel and Subdecay! :thu:

[AJ Nash]

so from what i understand...most if not all Boss...pedals have buffers built into them? so whats the point of a separate buffer? (do they just have {censored}ty buffers? from what i read their impedence is down to like 1k ohms, low impedence is considered 200 ohms...other pedals impedence is around 10k ohms.) anyone know if mxr pedals are buffered? honestly i think this is all just a waste, at least for me. my tone doesnt seem to be too affected by my pedals, nothing noticeable to me at least, much less to anyone else. hella confusing business about buffers either way...

 

Yes, all Boss pedals are buffered. Many people don't like the buffers in Boss pedals, some people don't have any problems with them. If you only have one in your signal chain, you probably won't notice any difference in terms of frequency response.

 

However, if you start stacking buffered bypassed pedals, the difference will become more noticeable.

 

Here's a couple of graphs...

 

TBP (Sansamp) vs. 4 different buffered bypasses:

 

Same again, but showing the frequency response of having 10 boss buffers in a row in bypass mode:

[macadood]

thanks aj

 

at the 10x Boss

[Snufkino]

Quote:

put simply, a buffer makes your pickup signal powered, or "active", at which point it will not really be affected by long cable runs, volume pedals, or other stuff in the chain. Your signal us only as good as your LAST buffer. Buffers work downhill and essentially stop at the next buffer. I've seen posts where guys put the buffer last in the chain and thought that the entire signal chain behind it was buffered. Guess again. in that situation the only thing thats buffered is the cable to the amp.

 

Has my brain stopped working, or does that statement not quite make sense?

 

"Your signal is only as good as your LAST buffer" So then putting a buffer last would work best?

 

But then he says "in that situation the only thing that's buffered is the cable to the amp".

 

 

Oh, wait...I think I get it. So you'd need at least two high-quality buffers, one at the start and one at the end for a nice, pristine signal? (And maybe one in the middle if you're Kayzer or some such person)

 

I noticed the whole "buffers are better than bypass" thing with my Tech 21 Boost RVB. It really helped keep my strat's tone intact unlike even a high-quality bypass pedal. It's weird to think all this time there's been this snobby fx culture urban myth that only true bypass is best.

[melx]

I noticed the whole "buffers are better than bypass" thing with my Tech 21 Boost RVB. It really helped keep my strat's tone intact unlike even a high-quality bypass pedal. It's weird to think all this time there's been this snobby fx culture urban myth that only true bypass is best.

 

 

it goes something like this...

 

"Buy our TB pedals, buffers suck tone"

 

....you sell all your old pedals and buy nice new TB pedals

 

"ah, but having all TB sucks too, buy our buffers"

 

There's only one reason that boutique pedals are TB and that's because it's easier to wire up a 3pdt footswitch with an LED than it is to include buffered electronic switching in the design.....imo of course.

[erksin]

 

Yeah, I'm thinking about adding the Wampler buffer just for {censored}s and giggles. Most all of my peds are true bybass but I'd like to make sure there is no tone suckage going on.

 

 

If you have one buffered pedal in your chain already, the dedicated buffer likely won't do {censored}.

 

Using a wah? Is it T/B..?

[Meriphew]

I have a VHT Valvulator (I think it's called the Frye Valvulator now). I'm very happy with it. It also powers about 6-8 pedals.

[Offthiscentury]

I'm another one who is clueless about buffers...

 

I want to add a volume pedal to my chain...prolly the EB Jr Vol., but I've heard that it is notorious for the tone suck. Would the buffer go immediately before or after it to counteract the loss of highs?

[macadood]

im thinking about getting the mxr (cae) mc-401 now...

i think its a beauty of a pedal will nicely match my black NPN and pitchblack

 

anyone got any experience with CAE?

[macadood]

^^?

 

aparently this things got a decent buffer in it. considering i "need" a clean boost i might get it

 

*{censored}ing gas*

[Saturnine10]

Do you actually need a buffer in YOUR rig? Have you noticed tone suck with your pedals? I always find putting all of my effects into a single TB loop lets me check to see if there is any tone suck. If there is, i move stuff around and try again.

 

Work with what you have before shelling out for a pedal that you might not need, just my opinion

[macadood]

Do you actually need a buffer in YOUR rig? Have you noticed tone suck with your pedals? I always find putting all of my effects into a single TB loop lets me check to see if there is any tone suck. If there is, i move stuff around and try again. Work with what you have before shelling out for a pedal that you might not need, just my opinion

 

Do i NEED? absolutely not

but do i WANT? absolutely

 

maybe im just not noticing the tone suck cuz im used to it but all the more reason to try out a new cool lookin' pedal

[Clewsy]

im thinking about getting the mxr (cae) mc-401 now... i think its a beauty of a pedal will nicely match my black NPN and pitchblack anyone got any experience with CAE?

 

Haven't had any experience with it as a buffer really as at the moment I'm running a very short pedalboard of

 

Pitchblack --> Blackstar HT- Dual --> Boost/Line Driver

 

but it is a very good clean boost, thoroughly recommend it.

[Saturnine10]

What is the gear your playing with?

 

Do i NEED? absolutely not but do i WANT? absolutely maybe im just not noticing the tone suck cuz im used to it but all the more reason to try out a new cool lookin' pedal

[macadood]

i got a 76 dyna comp (which i sometimes kinda use as clean boost now) -> bud-wah -> mxr dist III -> octron -> NPN/Large Beaver -> ph-1r -> dano CCC -> CC -> DD-7 -> RC-2 -> 10 bad eq (also can use as boost) -> pitchblack at the moment with some random pedals on and off if i need, so its a fair amount of pedals

 

does i need buffer?

(tell me i do! tell me i do!)

[Saturnine10]

Do you have a TB loop? I'm gonna assume that you must have some tone suck with all that gear, but you should check with a TB loop and make sure

[AMZ-FX]

Buffer info

 

regards, Jack

[EL KABONG]

Cornish Makes the best buffer, I have a cornish G2 fuzz on my board at all times. No more tone suckage for me.

[ambient]

i got a 76 dyna comp (which i sometimes kinda use as clean boost now) -> bud-wah -> mxr dist III -> octron -> NPN/Large Beaver -> ph-1r -> dano CCC -> CC -> DD-7 -> RC-2 -> 10 bad eq (also can use as boost) -> pitchblack at the moment with some random pedals on and off if i need, so its a fair amount of pedals does i need buffer? (tell me i do! tell me i do!)

 

Some of those pedals already are buffered.

 

You will likely not notice any difference.

[Dr. Goldenglove]

I run my M9 at the end of the chain in DSP bypass mode, and counting the M9, I have 3 pedals, so no need for a buffer, I guess.

[macadood]

man. this buffer crap is the most complicated thing in the world. no one seems to know what theyre talking about, everyone has different opinions, everything seems to be a sales gimmick, everything seems to contradict itself

 

i guess if i find a good deal on the MC-401 i'll pick it up, as a clean boost if anything. and see if it does antyhing to my sound. sadly i dont have a bypass looper