PCB vs Perf vs Strip (vero) vs PtP

[SonicVI]

I think it would be sweet to make a circular PTP fuzz or something

 

 

Check out this stuff. Electronic sculpture.

 

 

http://www.carzaniga.ch/html/07_kuenstler/display.php3?artist=14

http://www.wsu.edu/~jackdoll/jak/Nwork/exgal.htm

[Saturnine10]

Thats sweet

 

What is it, an amp or something?

[echodeluxe]

pcb is horrible.

 

everyone knows PTP has the best tone. the electrons can tell the difference.

[THAT4301]

breadboard is noisy not just because of the poor connections, but because there is no shielding, and each track you use behaves as an antennae

[IvIark]

Vero and PCBs aren't shielded either, they're all just copper tracks held together by some non-conductor at the end of the day, although if the vero or PCB is boxed then I agree you will have that shielding advantage.

[!i!i!i!i!i!]

PCP

[H.R. Shove and Stuff]

PCB is the only way I go because I understand* eagle, like to design and can make decent layouts and get them made for a decent price

 

*by understand, I mean I can open the program. No one really understands eagle.

[macadood]

heres a really good site that finally explained to me vero and cuts and how it all works for anyone else whos confused or looking to try a vero build. honestly vero seems easier than dealing with a pcb imo...but i've yet to try it

i guess i'll try my local radio shack to see if i can pick up some vero tonight and do a build

 

http://www.zen22142.zen.co.uk/Prac/vero_circ/vero.htm

[H.R. Shove and Stuff]

FWIW, I've never seen vero at any ratshack I've been too. Just perf variations (w/ w/o pads).

[ShortScaleMike]

I've been building little electronics projects on veroboard since my Dad talk me how to use it as a teenager, so I use that for all my work unless someone wants me to put together a kit for something more complex for them. Even the delay I build is on veroboard.

 

I know the advantages of PCB but much of my work is Custom so PCB is less useful. Maybe if I go full-time on this in the future and churn out many of the same standard pedals for sale in shops or direct I'll move to PCB, but for now I'll stick with veroboard.

 

It might be noisy if you're going to use microcontrollers etc like Tape does with his fantastic projects, but for the analogue stuff I do, or the simple PT2399 based delay I make, I find it plenty quiet enough.

 

I enjoy designing layouts too, it's a nice challenge to make something elegant.

[Ronsonic B]

 

PCB is the only way I go because I understand* eagle, like to design and can make decent layouts and get them made for a decent price *by understand, I mean I can open the program. No one really understands eagle.

 

 

I cannot tell you how many times I have sat staring at the thing wondering how in a physical universe governed by immutable laws I could be seeing the abomination that is looking back at me. Pads that reconfigure themselves. Errors that simply don't exist. But somehow we make EAGLE work. And considering the price of anything close we're gonna keep at it.

[Meowy]

OP here. Thanks everyone for your thoughts so far. Keep em coming.

 

Also, I recently did a treble booster perf build and I am really happy with the results. I want to try another with some variations and I am in the midst of putting together a vero layout. I can't help but be tempted by the relative simplicity of simply soldering to vero vs the need to run the junctions between the components on perf.

 

One more point though (more a question of elegance in design vs practicality). Jumpers. Are they considered to be a valid means to an end in producing a simpler design, or are they viewed as hacks and quick fixes?

[ShortScaleMike]

In veroboard they're sometimes really useful if you want a condensed layout. Personally I am not annoyed by using them if there's less than 10 of them on the layout I've come up with.

 

On a PCB I think people get too het up about it personally. It's just another component when you think about it.

[Meowy]

 

It's just another component when you think about it.

 

 

yup, it's a 0 R resistor :poke:

[THAT4301]

Well, if you have 4 jumpers going over one track, obviously you'd be better off with 1 jumper going over 4 tracks, but I don't see it as a big deal.

[H.R. Shove and Stuff]

I don't like jumpers on PCB's, but to be honest, I don't know why. Probably because I started off by reading RG's book, which I don't think advocated their use.

 

But I don't think they are detrimental to the layout, just something I try to not have on because it's one more thing to solder

[IvIark]

Jumpers on PCBs are going to be pretty rare now because multi-layer PCBs are the new cool thing and so you don't have to worry about things like that anymore. I've got a few single layer PCBs for bigger circuits than needed a couple of jumpers, but it's not big deal to me. It's just a track at the end of the day, and copper track crossing copper track on a different layer is exactly the same principle.

[macadood]

so i went to the local electronics shop, picked up surprisingly almost everything needed to build a Folk Driver, other than the enclosure, jacks, switch, and one diode.

 

did my first veroboard build with the stuff, went pretty well i must say i like vero. only that it was some asian knockoff of it and the numbering/lettering is kinda goofy

whats the best way to do cuts tho on vero? i just used a box cutter kind of thing and it wasnt too easy but not hard at all either...is there a better way?

[Akridosity]

 

whats the best way to do cuts tho on vero? i just used a box cutter kind of thing and it wasnt too easy but not hard at all either...is there a better way?

 

 

Some folks use a wide drill bit to make shallow circular cuts, It works really well.

[THAT4301]

I have one with a handle glued on, works well

[musikerochan]

breadboard first and foremost. if i commit to build it, it is then i design the pcb for it. nothng beats PCBs IMO.

[Reginald]

 

whats the best way to do cuts tho on vero? i just used a box cutter kind of thing and it wasnt too easy but not hard at all either...is there a better way?

 

 

1/8" drill bit works perfectly.

[parrotheada1a]

 

I understand the objective pros and cons of each, but when it comes down to it, which set of trade-offs works best for you, and why? I have found that because I do more experimentation than anything with fuzz and boosters that perf gives me the most flexibility. Of course this makes for a very tedius build that is very difficult to alter. Sure, I could socket everything that has the potential to be changed out, but I think too many sockets looks clumsy and compromises reliability. Ideally, I would love to find pre-made PCBs that are laid out to use bias trimmers instead of fixed resistors. As a workaround I could use boards like these with an off-board pot, but sometimes I would prefer to have a set and forget option.

 

 

Here's the deal. I've been working in circuit board shops for over 20 years so I have just a little bit more experience than the guy down the street. It all amounts to $$. PCB's need to be designed to work with components on hand and be simple to work on. That kind of thing is not as cheap as it sounds. In my shop, a simple new rev of an old part costs upwards of 500 bucks unless the customer signs off on something like a paper change. This is on a simple 2 layer FR-4 fiberglass board whether or not it has other different processes applied to it. If it's multilayer, figure on 750 per layer. These are only the tooling charges.... added onto the cost of building xxx number of boards.

 

My advice is this. If you are building only one or two pieces.... use perfboard and deal with the extra wiring and noise.

[Ronsonic B]

 

My advice is this. If you are building only one or two pieces.... use perfboard and deal with the extra wiring and noise.

 

 

Nothing wrong with perf and it can be executed well. Any method requires skill and thought.

 

The bar for doing PCBs is not that high. A free EAGLE download a few tutorials and putting an order in with a batch of others can get you boards very reasonably. Maybe a bit involved for a guy who just wants to try a couple of different pedal designs. But for anyone who's going to make an ongoing hobby of it getting over the learning curve to do a board layout is worthwhile. Once there, it takes no longer than laying out any other build. Actually, doing a layout on a double sided PCB is fast and easy compared to a Vero layout.

 

Doing a board with something like DIYLC and press and peel is not a bad option either for onesy twosy builds. It'll only get a single sided board usually, but that's fine for most of our stuff.

 

This is the 21st Century, inexpensive board production is readily available.

[H.R. Shove and Stuff]

Truth. I get a board made for a total of 5$ per square inch, then two copies of that board for free.

 

So a 2" x 2" layout would cost $20 for three copies of the board. $20 includes all setup fees and shipping btw. Certainly making professional, small lot double sided boards is not expensive.