Members ChristianRock Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 It's been 12 whole minutes... somebody argue something! No it hasn't been 12 minutes!! [YOUTUBE]teMlv3ripSM[/YOUTUBE] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kooki_sf Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 "Secular humanism" is mostly a marketing term used by religious anti-science types. These folks think logic and reason and religion are incompatible with each other. Therefore, they try and brand logic and reason as a "religion". us scientific anti-religion types also think faith isn't logical or reasonable. ..dumb rather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kooki_sf Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 The American Civil Liberties Union has two things they fight for (and have a lot of money to do it): freedom of expression (which is good) and erradication of religion from anything public-related, even if it was not paid with public funds (which kind of contradicts the first point they defend). This doesn't only extend to government. Their atheist agenda is pretty obvious and quite aggressive in its delivery. you left out NAMBLA. anyway, what cases are you talking about exactly with the second point? I hadn't heard about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yoozer Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 us scientific anti-religion types also think faith isn't logical or reasonable. ..dumb rather. However, a force to be reckoned with, and when engaged in dialog not something to mock - you'll make more friends with honey than with vinegar, and you don't even have to lie for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gunslinger69 Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 The American Civil Liberties Union has two things they fight for (and have a lot of money to do it): freedom of expression (which is good) and erradication of religion from anything public-related, even if it was not paid with public funds (which kind of contradicts the first point they defend). This doesn't only extend to government. Their atheist agenda is pretty obvious and quite aggressive in its delivery. You can't pick and choose which portions of the First Amendment you want to govern by and which you don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members setAI Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 us scientific anti-religion types also think faith isn't logical or reasonable. ..dumb rather. this idea of rationalist vs religious needs to end- just as religion needs to accept logic and reason to look for legitimate causes and physical processes for our existence and see that the mythic stories are only about VALUE and FEELING- atheists need to understand that religiosity is a NECESSARY component of adapted human social psychology- and that our best models of reality: Quantum Mechanics/ Relativity/ Darwinism are all limited models which only provide a general statistical modeling of physical phenomena and that they EACH suggest universal processes operating in an infinite universe[=Multiverse]- thus already producing somewhere cases outside the limits of those models [such as the conditions near black holes and the quantum scale of spacetime] and actually implying that in other regions of the Universe/Multiverse intelligence has already developed far past human level and is already modulating events at a cosmic scale- so not only does religion have a place in human psyches- it also provides man with the proper perspective and AWE when contemplating the natures of whatever Alien AI network administrators out there have root access to our reality software atheists mistake god for the flying spaghetti monster- but god isn't an illusion- this is just a primitive way to see the nature of advanced intelligence in the universe which is in EVERY WAY equivalent to our concepts of deism/theism/demonology Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 you left out NAMBLA. Oh man, this is something I don't even want to remember, hoping it just went away. anyway, what cases are you talking about exactly with the second point? I hadn't heard about this. I don't really want to waste time going after all their cases, but they are all over the US fighting cases like this: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45472 Apparently crosses in cemetery memorials are offensive to our civil liberties. I sometimes read the newsletter from the ACLJ (American Center for Law and Justice) which is a Christian association of lawyers that defend mostly churches and religion-related causes. They spend most of their time defending people against ACLU lawsuits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members droolmaster0 Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 and actually implying that in other regions of the Universe/Multiverse intelligence has already developed far past human level and is already modulating events at a cosmic scale- so not only does religion have a place in human psyches- it also provides man with the proper perspective and AWE when contemplating the natures of whatever Alien AI network administrators out there have root access to our reality software atheists mistake god for the flying spaghetti monster- but god isn't an illusion- this is just a primitive way to see the nature of advanced intelligence in the universe which is in EVERY WAY equivalent to our concepts of deism/theism/demonology can we just get to the part where Vaz Modular is a thinking, feeling being? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members plaid_emu Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 and actually implying that in other regions of the Universe/Multiverse intelligence has already developed far past human level and is already modulating events at a cosmic scale- so not only does religion have a place in human psyches- it also provides man with the proper perspective and AWE when contemplating the natures of whatever Alien AI network administrators out there have root access to our reality software atheists mistake god for the flying spaghetti monster- but god isn't an illusion- this is just a primitive way to see the nature of advanced intelligence in the universe which is in EVERY WAY equivalent to our concepts of deism/theism/demonology [YOUTUBE]woEP6TMmXNA&f[/YOUTUBE] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members setAI Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 can we just get to the part where Vaz Modular is a thinking, feeling being? there is certainly something mystical about those FILTERS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 mKxnaMeOK20 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kooki_sf Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 atheists mistake god for the flying spaghetti monster- but god isn't an illusion- this is just a primitive way to see the nature of advanced intelligence in the universe which is in EVERY WAY equivalent to our concepts of deism/theism/demonology you seem to misunderstand the scientific method. as an atheist, I dont BELIEVE there is a god. nor do I BELIEVE there isn't a god. try to think about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scorpio01169 Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 Obama has said on record that on the first day in office he wants to sign up the Freedom of Choice act which effectively takes away what little the states have to say about abortion, the cool thing about that is...you have the choice to not have an abortion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted November 3, 2008 Members Share Posted November 3, 2008 the cool thing about that is... you have the choice to not have an abortion The bad part is... the baby doesn't have a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted November 4, 2008 Members Share Posted November 4, 2008 The bad part is... the baby doesn't have a choice. And there is the crux of it. When is it a "baby"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soundwave106 Posted November 4, 2008 Members Share Posted November 4, 2008 I don't really want to waste time going after all their cases, but they are all over the US fighting cases like this: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45472 Apparently crosses in cemetery memorials are offensive to our civil liberties. Well, apparently this cross was offensive to the Jewish War Veterans of America. *shrug* The ACLU is pretty literal about their amendments. They see a cross on government property -- without any *other* religious symbols acknowledged -- as violating the First Amendment. From a strict standpoint, the ACLU is right. Contrary to the right-wing belief, they have no problem with religious symbols on, say, military tombstones, that reflect the individual belief of the fallen soldier. The ACLU is a bit overly nit-picky IMHO; however their fundamental drive is not "anti-Christian", unless you are one of those that would desire a "Christian government" concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scorpio01169 Posted November 4, 2008 Members Share Posted November 4, 2008 The bad part is... the baby doesn't have a choice. the other good part of it is....you don't make that decision for me or anyone else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted November 4, 2008 Members Share Posted November 4, 2008 the other good part of it is... .you don't make that decision for me or anyone else I think we both will agree that the state does make a decision on what you can or cannot do regarding certain subjects, like theft and murder. I classify abortion as murder, and that is the pro-life position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted November 4, 2008 Members Share Posted November 4, 2008 Well, apparently this cross was offensive to the Jewish War Veterans of America. *shrug* The ACLU is pretty literal about their amendments. They see a cross on government property -- without any *other* religious symbols acknowledged -- as violating the First Amendment. From a strict standpoint, the ACLU is right. Contrary to the right-wing belief, they have no problem with religious symbols on, say, military tombstones, that reflect the individual belief of the fallen soldier. The ACLU is a bit overly nit-picky IMHO; however their fundamental drive is not "anti-Christian", unless you are one of those that would desire a "Christian government" concept. The lawsuit was started by an atheist, not a jewish organization. But even if it was the case that a jewish group didn't like it, they would just put a Star of David (or whatever jewish symbol they liked) there if they wanted to honor the jewish soldiers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scorpio01169 Posted November 4, 2008 Members Share Posted November 4, 2008 I think we both will agree that the state does make a decision on what you can or cannot do regarding certain subjects, like theft and murder. I classify abortion as murder, and that is the pro-life position. again....who are you to classify anything and why should I have to live by it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ElectricPuppy Posted November 4, 2008 Members Share Posted November 4, 2008 Better yet, when is it a human being? The 64 Thousand Dollar Question. As is evident in this very thread, it depends on who you ask. SetAI will tell you it's not until the 3rd trimester. You probably believe it's at conception. Others might have other definitions or criteria. I personally believe that it's up to the parents to decide for themselves. Aren't all human beings worthy of the right to live? In most circumstances, yes. But nothing is ever black and white. What about massively dibilitating defects? Rape victims? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members droolmaster0 Posted November 4, 2008 Members Share Posted November 4, 2008 Better yet, when is it a human being? Aren't all human beings worthy of the right to live? I think we both will agree that the state does make a decision on what you can or cannot do regarding certain subjects, like theft and murder. I classify abortion as murder, and that is the pro-life position. So, by your simplistic logic, you would also classify anyone who participates in an abortion - the doctor, the mother - as a murderer, and logically, they should go to jail for a long time, or be executed, right? If not, then you recognize that there are some issues that actually differentiate it from murder. So - take a stand here - should anyone who participates in an abortion be punished severely, or is it really not murder? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members droolmaster0 Posted November 4, 2008 Members Share Posted November 4, 2008 The 64 Thousand Dollar Question. As is evident in this very thread, it depends on who you ask. SetAI will tell you it's not until the 3rd trimester. You probably believe it's at conception. Others might have other definitions or criteria. I personally believe that it's up to the parents to decide for themselves. I believe that it's up to the baby to decide. If it can't decide, well, then it's not a human being. Off with its head. If it can decide (presumably to live) then we congratulate it, and enroll it as a full fledged human. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BonsoWonderDog Posted November 4, 2008 Members Share Posted November 4, 2008 And there is the crux of it. When is it a "baby"? I had a colleague that genuinely argued that since a kid didn't really have a real personality, or a real sense of "self" until about 1.5 or 2 years old, that abortion should be legal for up to 1 year. For the record, I agree with 96% of all the points CR is making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BonsoWonderDog Posted November 4, 2008 Members Share Posted November 4, 2008 The 64 Thousand Dollar Question. As is evident in this very thread, it depends on who you ask. SetAI will tell you it's not until the 3rd trimester. You probably believe it's at conception. Others might have other definitions or criteria. I personally believe that it's up to the parents to decide for themselves. In most circumstances, yes. But nothing is ever black and white. What about massively dibilitating defects? Rape victims? One of my best friends at school was the "result" of a rape. Are you suggesting that she didn't deserve to live? That she should never have been born? She loved life and the world would've been poorer without her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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