Members Armitage Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 Your point? You think that because they are leaders, they are somehow a better representation of the faith? Jesus said the first shall be last, and on numerous occasions expoused the virtues of the poor and underpriveleged. Christianity and power do not go hand in hand. I may be mistaken, but maybe he's saying if you can't trust your religious leaders, their agendas and their faith, how can you trust the faith they taught you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by Armitage I may be mistaken, but maybe he's saying if you can't trust your religious leaders, their agendas and their faith, how can you trust the faith they taught you? Fair point, but I'd argue that christianity was never meant to be taught or administered centrally, ala Roman Catholicism. It should be a personal thing. Mar 9:35 And he sat down and called the twelve. And he said to them, "If anyone would be first, he must be last of all and servant of all." The people who we should look to as examples of christianity are those who follow this teaching, not those who bend the faith for their own ends. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and power within the church is no exception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Armitage Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 And your God claims to have Absolute power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Armitage Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 Bull{censored}! I can't believe the ignorance of you people. Noone who has killed in the name of christianity is actually a christian. Again, read up before you make idiotic statements. Hahahaha, you really are blind. And a good laugh. I think you need to read something other then Christian sales literature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by Armitage And your God claims to have Absolute power. Haha, yes he does. Difference is, he's God, not a corruptable, imperfect human. He can handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by Armitage Hahahaha, you really are blind. And a good laugh. I think you need to read something other then Christian sales literature. I think YOU need to read something, full stop. And read it with your eyes open. When you find proper evidence of the christian God leading someone to commit atrocities, I'll stand up and take notice. You won't though, because it hasn't happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuckgp Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 I didn't say 'no chance'- I said I don't know. All that I do know is that my faith is real, and since I don't buy this ridiculous 'whats truth for you isn't truth for me' business, I believe others can have a real faith too.Why should I give up trying to grasp the ungraspable? Do you really think we're going to ever grasp the entirety of science? Of course not, but scientists keep on trying, and progressing.If there weren't continually new things for me to learn, my faith would be dead. The Transcendent is not the totality of scientific knowledge.Not these new things you will learn that will keep your faith alive.. Two different things. Yours has the possibility of one day being known. That is not ungraspable. Just not grasped yet. Transcendence doesn't have a chance of ever being known. It can't be progressed upon, understood, fathomed, talked about,debated on HCAF, etc. Only experienced. Are you experienced? Have you ever been? Well, I AM. Do you really think that what's true for you has to be true for everybody else? That other beliefs are bull{censored}, but yours will work for us all? What's truth for you isn't truth for me, I assure you. I'll still take the Perineal philosophy. Correct my assumptions. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuckgp Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 I think YOU need to read something, full stop. And read it with your eyes open. When you find proper evidence of the christian God leading someone to commit atrocities, I'll stand up and take notice. You won't though, because it hasn't happened. FULL STOP, indeed. If the Old Testament God is the Christian God, then I think we could dig up a few atrocities? You do believe the Bible, right? Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdwill2u Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 I would love to compare the atrocites and deaths attributable to evil men using the christian faith to justify their evil deeds with those same evil deeds done by agnostics and athiests. Let's start a little recent (last 100 years) roll call. Hitler stalin Pol Pot Ho Chi Ming For all my christians brothers on this forum, remember a lot of these posters are into death metal and strongly influenced by satanic forces. It is considered "cool" and brave to laugh in the face of eternal peril....seems like the ultimate dare. Hopefully most of these childish "rebels" will grow up and at the very least become sane enough to truly investigate real christianity and refrain from making comments about a subject that they only know through there own limited and biased propaganda. Quite frankly almost all, and i would say all but I want to leave a little room for the exception, of the people who are angry at christians and God and the church are folks engaging in activites that they know are sinful. Jesus preached about the condition of our hearts, not our intellects. We love our sins and our addictions, and we know that a Holy God will deal with us if we want to come close to Him. The funny thing is, this is nothing more than another satanic lie, we do not get our lives in order and then go to God, that won't work, we go to him just as we are and ask Him to help us change. These changes are swift in some, and slower in others, and they are one more level of proof of the validity of our faith. We do change, and the change is always for the better. I was an alcoholic, a drug addict, a thief, a liar and I had no respect for God, my country, my parents, or the law. I was rebellious and bitter and full of frustration, and fear. I still suffer from all of this (except the addictions) because I am human, but not to the same degree and not without God's aid. BTW - The bible is not the only reference historically about the life, death and ressurection of Jesus, and if you want to glibly discount the eyewitness testimony of twelve men, living in different countries and separated from each other (with the exception of the few who lived in Jerusulem), men who were tortured and put to death for not changing their story, well be my guest, but I think ignoring the facts in this case is a little ignorant. Especially with so much at stake. Oh I could go on, but you know what....pearls before swine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Digital Jams Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Yeah but Jesus never helped Cerano hit a breaking pitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by chuckgp The Transcendent is not the totality of scientific knowledge.Not these new things you will learn that will keep your faith alive..Two different things.Yours has the possibility of one day being known. That is not ungraspable. Just not grasped yet.Transcendence doesn't have a chance of ever being known. It can't be progressed upon, understood, fathomed, talked about,debated on HCAF, etc.Only experienced. Are you experienced? Have you ever been?Well, I AM.Do you really think that what's true for you has to be true for everybody else?That other beliefs are bull{censored}, but yours will work for us all?What's truth for you isn't truth for me, I assure you. I'll still take the Perineal philosophy.Correct my assumptions.Chuck I believe that the nature of truth is that it is true for all. Of course it can come in many different guises, but it's still the same truth. I don't think you believe that either, since you seem to think I'm deluded, and that your own beliefs are the only truth. I do think I'll grasp the entirety of my faith, but only when I die. I can never grasp it here- which is why there'll always be scope for me to grow. What's the Perineal philosophy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdwill2u Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by Dr Wanker Or the Crusades. Anyone remember the Aztecs, or the Incas? Adolf Hitler was a proud Christian. Christians are historically famous for killing off others who don't believe like they do. Hitler was not a christian, that is a lie. He was a spiritualist and a gnostic. He and Goebbels invented their own peculiar religion based on racial pride, and mysticism....his mysticism had no biblical content at all, it was nothing more than existentialism with a little black magic thrown in for good measure. Nothing even remotely christian about Hitler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by chuckgp FULL STOP, indeed.If the Old Testament God is the Christian God, then I think we could dig up a few atrocities?You do believe the Bible, right?Chuck Chuck, you're sharp. I'll be honest- I don't really have a definitive answer for that. I will point out though, that we have been talking about *christians* being lead to commit atrocities. I think you can agree that that never actually happens. Christianity is totally different to OT Judaism. As for what this says about the nature of God, well I think given that he is God, it's his prerogative what he does with his creation. It might not be nice, but who are we to argue. I'm just thankful that he chose to put an end to all the previous carry-on, by sending his son to die for our imperfections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by gdwill2u Oh I could go on, but you know what....pearls before swine. Thanks for your contribution, but we're trying to keep things civil here... I think that was a little low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdwill2u Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 Chuck, you're sharp. I'll be honest- I don't really have a definitive answer for that.I will point out though, that we have been talking about *christians* being lead to commit atrocities. I think you can agree that that never actually happens. Christianity is totally different to OT Judaism.As for what this says about the nature of God, well I think given that he is God, it's his prerogative what he does with his creation. It might not be nice, but who are we to argue. I'm just thankful that he chose to put an end to all the previous carry-on, by sending his son to die for our imperfections. I have an answer for this but it require a long lesson in dispensationalism. Suffice it to say God was about establishing and protecting His chosen people....the cultures he either sent the nation of Israel against or destroyed directly were cultures that threatened to so dillute or influence the Israilites tht they posed a very real and present threat. None of this is easy to understand, but it should never be used as a weapon in the hands of the unlearned to discount a Holy God. God protects His people from satanic and sinful influence, that is a constant theme throughout the whole bible. he is still protecting His people today only today we live in a new era (or dispensation), we live under the gospel invitation and all who come to God through Christ are His chosen people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuckgp Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 What's the Perineal philosophy? You answer your own question: the nature of truth is that it is true for all. Of course it can come in many different guises, but it's still the same truth. See- Huxley, Joseph Campbell for more, if you dare. I don't think you believe that either, since you seem to think I'm deluded, and that your own beliefs are the only truth. We both assume too much. I think everone is deluded, I'm Gnostic. You don't know what I believe. Or what I seem to think.But you're going on what I've posted, so I'm not communicating very well. And:When the {censored}ing hell have I ever said that my beliefs are the only truth???? This assumtion has made an ass out of you, but not me, this time. I do think I'll grasp the entirety of my faith, but only when I die. I can never grasp it here- which is why there'll always be scope for me to grow. No, I disagree. You can experience it now, no need to die.You can't grasp it, but experience it. 2 different things again. Born again?? Seems like you might need to die to do that? You have a LOT of faith in physical death. Or you seem to think that. I prefer to experience the Transcendent often, while I'm still alive. I will not wait on death for some revelation that is attainable now.Dead or alive, its the same experience. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdwill2u Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 Thanks for your contribution, but we're trying to keep things civil here... I think that was a little low. You are trying to keep things civil with folks who call christians lying bastardsm or ignorant literlist? BTW - the pearls before swine is a biblical injuntion about teaching the closed minded about anything spiritual. It is right out of the mouth of Jesus, he Said "do not lay down your pearls before swine"...it was a parable, it did not mean he was calling anyone a pig. I meant it in the same way. How about giving someone the benefit of the doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuckgp Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by gdwill2u You are trying to keep things civil with folks who call christians lying bastardsm or ignorant literlist?BTW - the pearls before swine is a biblical injuntion about teaching the closed minded about anything spiritual. It is right out of the mouth of Jesus, he Said "do not lay down your pearls before swine"...it was a parable, it did not mean he was calling anyone a pig. I meant it in the same way.How about giving someone the benefit of the doubt. Lying bastid, ignorant literlist!!! (mis-spelling moron, too)Chrustin Backass!!Sum of a Breach!! How 'bout you give us the benefit of shut the {censored} up? Go call your lawyer, Adolf.Suck my pearls, blind swine. Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by chuckgp You answer your own question:the nature of truth is that it is true for all. Of course it can come in many different guises, but it's still the same truth. See- Huxley, Joseph Campbell for more, if you dare. Thanks- I'll look them up. We both assume too much. I think everone is deluded, I'm Gnostic. You don't know what I believe. Or what I seem to think.But you're going on what I've posted, so I'm not communicating very well.And:When the {censored}ing hell have I ever said that my beliefs are the only truth????This assumtion has made an ass out of you, but not me, this time. Well, throughout this thread and others you have continually denounced 'literalism' etc as being idiotic- it *seems* like you believe that anyone who doesn't agree is an idiot- sorry if this isn't the case, and I've got it wrong. No, I disagree. You can experience it now, no need to die.You can't grasp it, but experience it. 2 different things again.Born again?? Seems like you might need to die to do that?You have a LOT of faith in physical death. Or you seem to think that.I prefer to experience the Transcendent often, while I'm still alive.I will not wait on death for some revelation that is attainable now.Dead or alive, its the same experience.Chuck Ok, well I think the flawed nature of our earthly bodies is such that we can't experience anything in its entirety... there has to be some sort of rebirth or transformation first. I have a longing, a desire inside of me that I know can't be fufilled by any experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STEEL KAGE Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 So Chuck, For Clarification( not for flame) Your main beef with Christianity are the literalists, correct? Or is it Christianity as a whole? the crusades, the spanish inquisition are just a few of the atrocities done in the name of God and I fully agree that acts of that nature are deplorable and against, what I percieve, Gods Will. But that was man, not God and I have a serious problem with just about anything mankind gets its hands on Im also curious as to what your total take on the Bible is. I used to go to Bible Study when I was alot younger and bailed because the people were just too damn whacky(as well as literal). My take is that there is alot of good stuff in there that is applicable to people of all creeds as well as things that I just refuse to follow. My beliefs and faith are firmed up by things that I have experienced in life, not through a book( even though some of it is referenced in The Bible) Kage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Here we have a simple lesson in cause and effect:This:Originally posted by gdwill2u You are trying to keep things civil with folks who call christians lying bastardsm or ignorant literlist?BTW - the pearls before swine is a biblical injuntion about teaching the closed minded about anything spiritual. It is right out of the mouth of Jesus, he Said "do not lay down your pearls before swine"...it was a parable, it did not mean he was calling anyone a pig. I meant it in the same way.How about giving someone the benefit of the doubt. Causes this:Originally posted by chuckgp Lying bastid, ignorant literlist!!! (mis-spelling moron, too)Chrustin Backass!!Sum of a Breach!!How 'bout you give us the benefit of shut the {censored} up?Go call your lawyer, Adolf.Suck my pearls, blind swine.Chuck Jesus said to judge things by their fruits, gdwill, and the fruits of your post were that someone got pissed off. Therefore, I don't think you should have posted.BTW, I am familiar with the teachings of Jesus- I knew the verse you were referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by STEEL KAGE So Chuck, For Clarification( not for flame) Your main beef with Christianity are the literalists, correct? Or is it Christianity as a whole? the crusades, the spanish inquisition are just a few of the atrocities done in the name of God and I fully agree that acts of that nature are deplorable and against, what I percieve, Gods Will. But that was man, not God and I have a serious problem with just about anything mankind gets its hands on Im also curious as to what your total take on the Bible is. I used to go to Bible Study when I was alot younger and bailed because the people were just too damn whacky(as well as literal). My take is that there is alot of good stuff in there that is applicable to people of all creeds as well as things that I just refuse to follow. My beliefs and faith are firmed up by things that I have experienced in life, not through a book( even though some of it is referenced in The Bible) Kage Ok, so whats your take on the person of Jesus Christ? Who was he, and what's his relevance?Just interested Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuckgp Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Well, throughout this thread and others you have continually denounced 'literalism' etc as being idiotic- it *seems* like you believe that anyone who doesn't agree is an idiot- sorry if this isn't the case, and I've got it wrong. Almost perfect. I think literalists are idiots.If you disagree with me, that makes you a fool. Ok, well I think the flawed nature of our earthly bodies is such that we can't experience anything in its entirety... there has to be some sort of rebirth or transformation first. I have a longing, a desire inside of me that I know can't be fufilled by any experience. At least not by any experience you've had YET, right?Please stay open to all the possibilities.You are born again, but have not had this rebirth or transformation?Ahhh...outer-mystery Christian initiate, I see.I encourage you to EXPERIENCE the Inner Mystery.So, don't experience it with your flawed, earthly body, ok?Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STEEL KAGE Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 Ok, so whats your take on the person of Jesus Christ? Who was he, and what's his relevance? Just interested the short version; Jesus was the Son Of God, who died for our sins, preached love, tolerance and understanding. As far as his relevance, Im not quite sure what the best answer is so I will say that he was Gods rep in human formKage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted August 31, 2005 Members Share Posted August 31, 2005 Originally posted by chuckgp Almost perfect. I think literalists are idiots. If you disagree with me, that makes you a fool. Right, so maybe you're not claiming to have a monopoly on truth, but you are making some assumptions as to what's true and what isn't. I take back my previous implication. At least not by any experience you've had YET, right? Please stay open to all the possibilities. You are born again, but have not had this rebirth or transformation? Ahhh...outer-mystery Christian initiate, I see. I encourage you to EXPERIENCE the Inner Mystery. So, don't experience it with your flawed, earthly body, ok? Chuck Hey, if I experience total fulfillment in this life, I'll change my tune. I don't see that happening though. I guess there are still a few monumental paradigm shifts to come in my life that might trigger this fulfillment (getting married, having kids etc) so perhaps I'm wrong... I'll keep you posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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