Members draelyc Posted September 1, 2005 Members Share Posted September 1, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 Chris, I think your car accident example backs up my position- I do accept that different people see things in different ways. That's why I'm not willing to pass judgement on the beliefs of another- that is God's job. I think Jesus was so adamant we love each other because it is God's nature to love all people- you'd want your kids to get along wouldn't you? I'd never thought of it as anything more than that, so you raise an interesting point. What's your take on Jesus saying 'I am the way the truth and the life, noone comes to the father but through me'? That's actually one of my favorite passages in John's Gospel. It's often used as justification for claiming that one must be Christian in order to receive God's grace and "get into heaven," but as you probably guessed, I don't take it that way . . .I think it speaks to Jesus being the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. If you think of the spiritual path as being like a ladder, with God, the Father, at the top, then of *course* no one could come to the Father, the First Person, without first going through the Second Person, the Son, Christ Jesus. Christ literally makes it possible for us to reach the Father, by bridging that gap, being both Human and Divine, fully.Personally, I also don't think that a person has to call that Second Person of the godhead "Christ" or "Jesus" to partake of divine grace. John's gospel tells us that Christ is co-eternal and co-creative with God ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . Through Him all things were made, and without Him was not anything made that was made . . ."). That says to me, personally, that "Jesus" cannot be the only name by which that creative divinity is known, since the universe was created long before the man, Jesus, was born and the Word became flesh.I think it's significant that this line, "I am the way the truth and the life; no one comes to the father but through me" is part of the same passage where Jesus tells us that in His Father's house are many rooms, and He goes to prepare *a* room for us . . . What about all those other rooms? Who's preparing them, and for whom?In other words, Jesus's being the Way does not in any way suggest to me, personally, that everybody *has* to be Christian. After all, Jesus never even tried to start a new religion -- He was never anything but a devout Jew, in that regard. But as The Christ, He is God-made-manifest in the world, and it only makes sense that a person *has* to come to know God as He is manifest in the created world, before he can even begin to know God in His eternal, heavenly, un-manifest aspect.Of course, many folks will say I'm deliberately trying to confuse things by making a "simple" line of Scripture unnecessarily "complicated." But this is what the Scripture says to me, since you were kind enough to ask.So, what's your take on it?Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted September 1, 2005 Members Share Posted September 1, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 Just re-read your post, and to be honest, yes it does sound a little hokey.... but that doesn't put me off! My position is this though- we can never transcend our limitations while we're in this earthly body. We're just too limited, in understanding, in moral fortitute, in wisdom, etc. I don't believe we can change without undergoing a serious metamorphis, beyond what is possible on earth. I see what you're saying, and -- though it may sound like a contradiction -- I agree with you, to an extent.As long as we're trying to understand with our mortal minds, our limited human brains and hearts, you're right -- we'll never transcend the limitations of our human existence.But I also believe thoroughly that there is an aspect of the Divine within each of us, an indwelling spirit that comes directly from God and is One with Him -- call it the soul, perhaps. As mere humans, we can never transcend these limitations and undergo that metamorphosis, but there is no such limit upon the Divinity that dwells within us. In fact, I believe that it is that very life-altering, world-shattering Truth which is the "good news" of the Gospels . . . and that it is precisely that kind of metamorphosis that Christ Jesus calls us to undergo ("Be ye therefore perfect, as thy Father in heaven is perfect"). And it is Christ that makes it possible for us to go through it, since we cannot do it alone, merely left to our human devices . . .Of course, this is a mysticism-oriented way of approaching the subject, and there are many, many people -- especially in the west -- who equate that with "hooey." Who am I to say otherwise? I simply put it out there as a point of view which folks may wish to consider. Or not. C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted September 1, 2005 Members Share Posted September 1, 2005 Originally posted by draelyc That's actually one of my favorite passages in John's Gospel. It's often used as justification for claiming that one must be Christian in order to receive God's grace and "get into heaven," but as you probably guessed, I don't take it that way . . . I think it speaks to Jesus being the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. If you think of the spiritual path as being like a ladder, with God, the Father, at the top, then of *course* no one could come to the Father, the First Person, without first going through the Second Person, the Son, Christ Jesus. Christ literally makes it possible for us to reach the Father, by bridging that gap, being both Human and Divine, fully. Personally, I also don't think that a person has to call that Second Person of the godhead "Christ" or "Jesus" to partake of divine grace. John's gospel tells us that Christ is co-eternal and co-creative with God ("In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . Through Him all things were made, and without Him was not anything made that was made . . ."). That says to me, personally, that "Jesus" cannot be the only name by which that creative divinity is known, since the universe was created long before the man, Jesus, was born and the Word became flesh. I think it's significant that this line, "I am the way the truth and the life; no one comes to the father but through me" is part of the same passage where Jesus tells us that in His Father's house are many rooms, and He goes to prepare *a* room for us . . . What about all those other rooms? Who's preparing them, and for whom? In other words, Jesus's being the Way does not in any way suggest to me, personally, that everybody *has* to be Christian. After all, Jesus never even tried to start a new religion -- He was never anything but a devout Jew, in that regard. But as The Christ, He is God-made-manifest in the world, and it only makes sense that a person *has* to come to know God as He is manifest in the created world, before he can even begin to know God in His eternal, heavenly, un-manifest aspect. Of course, many folks will say I'm deliberately trying to confuse things by making a "simple" line of Scripture unnecessarily "complicated." But this is what the Scripture says to me, since you were kind enough to ask. So, what's your take on it? Chris My take? Hmmmm... its a tricky one! When I was a teenager I went through a time of really questioning what I'd been taught by the church- namely that christianity is the only way- and it really unsettled me. I still don't really know, but these days I'm more content to just accept that I can't fully understand everything, due to the limitations of my mind. I also had issues with the idea that we have free will, yet God is omnipotent, but now it doesn't bother me. (I'm 23 if you were wondering)As I said before, its not my place to pass judgement on other faiths- but I believe the God of the bible and Jesus Christ are real to everyone, not just to some- so with that in mind I do actively encourage others to seek after Him, and I'm actually considering spending a good chunk of my life as a missionary. Jesus said 'go and make disciples of all the nations'- but I think its interesting that he also shunned the crowds and told people not to shout about being healed- he certainly wasn't one for hype! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted September 1, 2005 Members Share Posted September 1, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 My take? Hmmmm... its a tricky one! When I was a teenager I went through a time of really questioning what I'd been taught by the church- namely that christianity is the only way- and it really unsettled me. I still don't really know, but these days I'm more content to just accept that I can't fully understand everything, due to the limitations of my mind. I also had issues with the idea that we have free will, yet God is omnipotent, but now it doesn't bother me. (I'm 23 if you were wondering) As I said before, its not my place to pass judgement on other faiths- but I believe the God of the bible and Jesus Christ are real to everyone, not just to some- so with that in mind I do actively encourage others to seek after Him, and I'm actually considering spending a good chunk of my life as a missionary. Jesus said 'go and make disciples of all the nations'- but I think its interesting that he also shunned the crowds and told people not to shout about being healed- he certainly wasn't one for hype! I dig where you're coming from, and where you are in your spiritual path mang. Thanks for the response. Fwiw, I think that God and Christ Jesus are real for everyone, too . . . I just happen to think that not all of us know them by the same names. God bless you as you discern the possibility of being called to missionary work. The idea of someone as open and thoughtful as you taking up that calling makes me smile.Peace,Chris(I'm 34, btw) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Originally posted by draelyc I dig where you're coming from, and where you are in your spiritual path mang. Thanks for the response. Fwiw, I think that God and Christ Jesus are real for everyone, too . . . I just happen to think that not all of us know them by the same names. God bless you as you discern the possibility of being called to missionary work. The idea of someone as open and thoughtful as you taking up that calling makes me smile. Peace, Chris (I'm 34, btw) Dude... thanks for the encouraging words! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 Dude... thanks for the encouraging words! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuckgp Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 (I'm 23 if you were wondering) (I'm 34, btw) OK, now this is all starting to make sense! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Originally posted by chuckgp OK, now this is all starting to make sense! :D How old are you then?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Originally posted by chuckgp OK, now this is all starting to make sense! :D Come on, now, Chuck ~ you know that chronological age and spiritual age are two entirely different critters . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lambros Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 I'm impressed with what you have to say here; you are a very astute 23 year old. I'm not a devout Christian by any stretch of the imagination but my temperament leans towards being austererather than being careless about myself. I'd like to believe that Christ preached his message about being tolerant in a manner that suited a world class philosophy and an understanding of anthropology at large, rather than bewildering and beguiling people with the performance of miracles in order to spread dogma.Every Christian I spoke to found this objectionable and I felt like I was the only one with this peculiar point of view. Well I was glad to be wrong about that, I started reading G.B. Shaw's works that dealt with Christianity 17 years ago. I can say that it has stood the test of time for me ever since. It is excellent stuff to read if you've ever considered Christianity seriously or not.Originally posted by gdb53 My take? Hmmmm... its a tricky one! When I was a teenager I went through a time of really questioning what I'd been taught by the church- namely that christianity is the only way- and it really unsettled me. I still don't really know, but these days I'm more content to just accept that I can't fully understand everything, due to the limitations of my mind. I also had issues with the idea that we have free will, yet God is omnipotent, but now it doesn't bother me. (I'm 23 if you were wondering)As I said before, its not my place to pass judgement on other faiths- but I believe the God of the bible and Jesus Christ are real to everyone, not just to some- so with that in mind I do actively encourage others to seek after Him, and I'm actually considering spending a good chunk of my life as a missionary. Jesus said 'go and make disciples of all the nations'- but I think its interesting that he also shunned the crowds and told people not to shout about being healed- he certainly wasn't one for hype! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuckgp Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 How old are you then?? Shee-it, I got 20 years on you, boy!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuckgp Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Originally posted by draelyc Come on, now, Chuck ~ you know that chronological age and spiritual age are two entirely different critters . . . Yes, but I...like to hope that they both advance with the passage of years.I don't look back and wish I were younger, that's fo' sho'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EpiPaul03 Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Originally posted by -=MYK=- But I don't believe in God. lol...All of Jesus' teachings are based on the way of how God wants us to be...That's a huge contridicting statement.Even if you believe Jesus was not the Son of God and just a man, all of his teachings in one way or another were directed towards God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dicky sofa Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 god?Originally posted by EpiPaul03 lol...All of Jesus' teachings are based on the way of how God wants us to be...That's a huge contridicting statement.Even if you believe Jesus was not the Son of God and just a man, all of his teachings in one way or another were directed towards God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EpiPaul03 Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Originally posted by dicky sofa god? wtf?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dicky sofa Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Whose god? Originally posted by EpiPaul03 wtf?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loghead Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Somebody here lost a dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EpiPaul03 Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 Originally posted by dicky sofa Whose god? by the looks of the grammar you are asking whose god, as in "which people's god are you talking about"..is that correct? God doesn't belong to one religion. Many religions believe there is only one God. For example, Christians, protestants, bapitsts, Catholic, Muslims, Islams. It is all the same God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loghead Posted September 2, 2005 Members Share Posted September 2, 2005 You gotta get a license to own a god in these parts. Otherwise the god-catcher is pick 'im up and put 'im in the pound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zachman Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 Originally posted by -=MYK=- But I don't believe in God. I support ALL of the teachings of Jesus, because I DO believe in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members draelyc Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 Originally posted by EpiPaul03 by the looks of the grammar you are asking whose god, as in "which people's god are you talking about"..is that correct? God doesn't belong to one religion. Many religions believe there is only one God. For example, Christians, protestants, bapitsts, Catholic, Muslims, Islams. It is all the same God. Christians, Protestants, Baptists, Catholics . . . all those *different* religions prayin' to the *same* god?Scandalous! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuckgp Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 Originally posted by draelyc Christians, Protestants, Baptists, Catholics . . . all those *different* religions prayin' to the *same* god? Scandalous! Yeah, all those Katrina victims, prayin' to that same God, sweltering in their own {censored}, no food, no water...might as well have been killed during the storm, would have been better than living. Poor children.Hell could be no worse.Praise that God. See you in church. Guess there's a few sparrows he forgot about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 Originally posted by chuckgp Yeah, all those Katrina victims, prayin' to that same God, sweltering in their own {censored}, no food, no water...might as well have been killed during the storm, would have been better than living. Poor children.Hell could be no worse.Praise that God. See you in church. Guess there's a few sparrows he forgot about. Chuck- you seem well thought out in general, do you really use the presence of evil in the world as an argument against the existence of God? I don't buy that at all... but maybe I've misunderstood you- can you elaborate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gdb53 Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 Originally posted by Loghead You gotta get a license to own a god in these parts. Otherwise the god-catcher is pick 'im up and put 'im in the pound. Wow. Insight, wit, eloquence... you've got it all. It's always a pleasure to read your 'posts' Log. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuckgp Posted September 3, 2005 Members Share Posted September 3, 2005 Originally posted by gdb53 Chuck- you seem well thought out in general, do you really use the presence of evil in the world as an argument against the existence of God? I don't buy that at all... but maybe I've misunderstood you- can you elaborate? What good is God if he's helpless to help the needy?We must help ourselves, as we've always had to do. I do not have a dualistic good/evil belief system. In short, Guess there's a few sparrows he forgot about, doesn't care about, or is too much of a weakling to do anything about. Maybe he's just too busy.All is vanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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