Members jetmarshall Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Just want to learn a scale that is a good platform for jazz solos. Any ideas on which scale? Also, is there a good website to visit if I want to access new scales? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t-rave Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 actually..study chord theory and harmony first...a big part of Jazz improv isn't just scales..but playing over the "changes" or chord tones.... I could be wrong but most of the big guns don't even think of scales when soloing ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jetmarshall Posted October 15, 2005 Author Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Originally posted by t-rave actually..study chord theory and harmony first...a big part of Jazz improv isn't just scales..but playing over the "changes" or chord tones.... I could be wrong but most of the big guns don't even think of scales when soloing ... Sure. I'm studying chords as well. Slowly working through "Chord Chemistry" by Ted Greene. Just thought I may work on scales as a complement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members telepaul Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 The major scale. Honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OverDriven Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 When I think of metal, I don't think theres a certain scale you have to learn to play it. You could write in any scale. Same with any rock or blues or whatever. Sure there are scales that are used more, but its more about a certain playing style than it is about a certain scale. My advice is to learn some jazz songs and get a good feel for the musical style, then do your own thing from there. -Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ripfence Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Originally posted by t-rave actually..study chord theory and harmony first...a big part of Jazz improv isn't just scales..but playing over the "changes" or chord tones.... I could be wrong but most of the big guns don't even think of scales when soloing ... +1 if you can get the chord melody thing down then the soloing should be easy. If you can sell the melody using chordal changes then you are on your way. Personaly, I am not even close. I'm just not good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members '63-Strat Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Originally posted by OverDriven When I think of metal, I don't think theres a certain scale you have to learn to play it. You could write in any scale. Same with any rock or blues or whatever. Sure there are scales that are used more, but its more about a certain playing style than it is about a certain scale. My advice is to learn some jazz songs and get a good feel for the musical style, then do your own thing from there. -Joe Yeah great post there guy. You definitely don't want to learn scales for jazz (or any genre for that matter) Start with the major scale. Learn it all over the fretboard so you can start on any note of the scale - giving you your diatonic modes. There's lots of info on the net on this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members relva2 Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 i don't know, i like Overdriven's approach. all theory and no fluidness makes a good song sound dry and dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members '63-Strat Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 clips? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OverDriven Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Originally posted by '63-Strat Yeah great post there guy. You definitely don't want to learn scales for jazz (or any genre for that matter) Yeah listen to 63 Strat so you can write cookie cutter solos like him! BTW...Hendrix must have not known a thing then since he knew no theory. Same with Marty Freidman. -Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CM1000 Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Originally posted by t-rave actually..study chord theory and harmony first...a big part of Jazz improv isn't just scales..but playing over the "changes" or chord tones.... I could be wrong but most of the big guns don't even think of scales when soloing ... I sent you some advice in your PM box, too secret for the boards!!!! haha, just kidding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members '63-Strat Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Originally posted by OverDriven Yeah listen to 63 Strat so you can write cookie cutter solos like him! BTW...Hendrix must have not known a thing then since he knew no theory. Same with Marty Freidman.-Joe Know what both of them know? Scales. I've posted clips before (and I don't think one solo was "written" either), can't say I remember hearing any from you. Not surprised either. Seriously though, all improvisation is is thinking/hearing the melody first and then playing that on your instrument. Learning scales helps this immensely; in jazz this is important as playing over changes requires you to play more than one scale during the song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OverDriven Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 First of all, scales would be included in music theory. Marty even openly said "I don't know the first thing about music theory". Secondly, I have posted tons of clips here. Third, your first response was way off base in the first place. I said that he should learn the style and feel and then do what he wants from there. If that includes a desire to learn theory, then by all means do it. I never once said "don't learn theory". I was simply stating that you can learn all the theory you want, but if you don't have a knowledge of the feel and style of playing jazz, then you can't do a thing with all that theory. -Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cloudnine Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Are you kidding me? Marty Friedman knows theory in and out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members '63-Strat Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Originally posted by OverDriven First of all, scales would be included in music theory. Marty even openly said "I don't know the first thing about music theory". Secondly, I have posted tons of clips here. Third, your first response was way off base in the first place. I said that he should learn the style and feel and then do what he wants from there. If that includes a desire to learn theory, then by all means do it. I never once said "don't learn theory". I was simply stating that you can learn all the theory you want, but if you don't have a knowledge of the feel and style of playing jazz, then you can't do a thing with all that theory.-Joe 1. Wasn't the title of this thread "what scale should I start with?" 2. Can you play a jazz song? Can you solo over changes? Marty has said that for sure, but he definitely knows scales, he just may not know the right terminology. Are you really trying to say you think Marty Friedman doesn't know any scales? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OverDriven Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Originally posted by cloudnine Are you kidding me?Marty Friedman knows theory in and out. I read it in an interview with him. I have no idea how old it was though, but I will try to find it for ya. -Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cloudnine Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 I just mention this because I have one of his instructional videos and he clearly knows what's going on theorywise, very much so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OverDriven Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Originally posted by '63-Strat 1. Wasn't the title of this thread "what scale should I start with?"2. Can you play a jazz song? Can you solo over changes? Marty has said that for sure, but he definitely knows scales, he just may not know the right terminology. Are you really trying to say you think Marty Friedman doesn't know any scales? What I'm saying about Marty is that (from what I gather) he knows "scales", but he doesn't know which one he is playing. And yes I can improv over changes. Dude I'm not here to have a pissing match with you. I posted my advice to try to help the original poster with my personal opinion. -Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members '63-Strat Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Originally posted by cloudnine I just mention this because I have one of his instructional videos and he clearly knows what's going on theorywise, very much so. Yes, yes he does. Have a good night guys, I'm off to the bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Max Factor Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Dudes, chill. If you just want to get started, I'd recommend learning the basic minor scale inside and out. You'll sound more like a jazzy hippy than a true jazzzman, but just noodling around with the minor scale in the key of the song is a great start to getting your feet wet. Very soon you'll start to notice that certain notes sound like crap over certain chords in certain songs. At this point you can get your books and chord charts out and start to ask yourself why. If you have the patience and determination, all of the things that you've read and studied will start to make sense. In the meantime, you'll sound like a jazzy hippy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JLeurck Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Let me throw this into the mix......when I was playing sax a lot many years back, one of my instructors threw the "harmonized major scale" my way. This is a really cool tool to learn the major scale, the chords built from the major scale, and how the scale works against the chords. Later on, when I took first year music theory in college, this thing popped up again. It is a great way to look at how scales and chords work together. Jazz is largely about making the chord changes, instead of just blasting through them. Here's how this thing works (the numbers are scale degrees): C=1-----3------5 = major chord ©D=2-----4------6 = minor chord (Dm)E=3-----5------7 = minor chord (Em)F=4-----6------8(1) = major chord (F)G=5-----7------9(2) = major chord (G)A=6-----8(1)--10(3) = minor chord (Am)B=7-----9(2)--11(4) = diminished chord (B dim)C=8 -- just the first set an octave up Those numbers in the left column are the notes of the major scale in order. The numbers in the middle and right column are the harmonized noted. The first chord is a major chord. Now analyze what is going on when you harmonize the whole scale to include the 7th scale degree: C=1-----3-------5------7 = major 7 chord (Cmaj7)D=2-----4-------6------8(1) = minor 7 chord (Dm7)E=3-----5-------7------9(2) = minor 7 chord (Em7)F=4-----6-------8(1)---10(3) = major 7 chord (Fmaj7)G=5-----7-------9(2)---11(4) = dominant 7 chord (G7)A=6-----8(1)----10(3)--12(5) = minor 7 chord (Am7)B=7-----9(2)----11(4)--13(6) = half-diminished 7 chord (B 1/2dim7)*C=8 -- just the first set an octave up What that diagram is telling you is that everywhere you have a Dm7, you could actually use the C major scale to solo over it, same with a G7, same with a Am7, etc, because those chords are built off the C major scale. This goes with what "63-strat" was saying about learning the notes of the major scale but not just starting on the first note, but going 2-9, 3-10, 4-11, etc. These are the modes of the major scale. With the info from the graph above, knowing you can use the C major scale to solo over all those different chords that have common tones with the scale, you would definitely want to concentrate on what are the strong tones of the chord. For instance, on that Fmaj7 chord, you wouldn't want to hang around on G which is the 5th scale degree of C, but the 2nd scale degree of the Fmaj7 chord. You'd probably want to use that as a passing tone. There are also different names for the chords using numbers instead of note names. Check this out - for a song in the key of C major they would look like this: (Cmaj7)------------ I(Dm7)---------------ii(Em7)---------------iii(Fmaj7)-------------IV(G7)-----------------V(Am7)---------------vi(B1/2dim7)*--------vii(Cmaj7)-------------I (again) Capital roman numeral means the chord begins with a major 3rd, small-case letters mean that distance between the 1st and 3rd scale degrees is a minor 3rd. Let's say you're playing a chord progression that has the following changes: Bm7 - E7 - Amaj7 - Amaj7 Those dominant 7th chords are the key, they are always built off the 5th scale degree of they parent key. E is the fifth note of the A major scale, so we must be looking at a ii-V-I progression in the key of A. A (Amaj7 or "I")B (Bm7 or "ii")c# (C#m7 or "iii")D (Dmaj7 or "IV")E (E7 or "V")F# (F#m7 or "vi")G# (G#1/2dim7* or "vii") This means that you can use the A major scale for this whole sequence, since all of those chords have tones that are common with the A major scale. Just remember to emphasize the chord tones of the chords within this "ii-V-I" progression, but you can use any note of the A major scale as a passing tone. Work that harmonized scale for all of the keys and you will have a ton of harmonic info to get you soloing over more complicated, jazzier chord changes. You'll find that some of these chords will show up in the harmonized scales of other keys, so here's where you begin to learn a cool jazz move called "scale substitutions", but worry about that later. Hope this helps. *The fonts aren't available to really give this the right chord symbol, but 7th chords built off the 7th scale degree can be called both "half-diminished" chords or "minor 7 flat-5" chords. Same sound, different name. This font set doesn't include the "diminished", "half-diminished" or "flat" symbols that you'd normally see on a chord chart.............sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members colormebloodred Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 know dorian backwards and forwards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members telepaul Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Amazing. An argument about a metal guitarists theory knowledge or lack therof in a "how do i get started playing jazz thread." Honestly the major scale is the foundation. As the poster who reference harmonizing it explained when you know the major scale you really know seven scales that relate to seven different keys and flavors. Throw in some additional chromatic passing notes here or there and you pretty much have everything. It really is the foundation. Learn it well and then move on to modes and harmonizing it and then move on to learning ii-V-I progressions in every key while practicing the appropriate scales over those progressions. But you always start with the basics and the basics is the freakin' major scale for godssakes. Any other scale you can think of in western music is defined by it's relationship to the major scale anyway. Scales are boring. You can also practive arpeggios. (Play every other note of the major scale.) They will sound much cooler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Boogie Man Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Glad to here your getting into Jazz, I love it I don't have much advice except play what you hear in your head. I do it that way and have lots of fingerstyle Jazz tunes and chord melodys worked out. I can play a whole night of improve Jazz tunes, solo and it pays pretty good too. I'm kind of getting away from the 4 or 5 piece Rock Band, I am trying to get a 3 piece Jazz combo up and running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BerkleeBill Posted October 15, 2005 Members Share Posted October 15, 2005 Broken down into its simplest form, the Berklee approach to beginning jazz improvisation consists of three elements: 1) arpeggios 2) scales 3) chromatic notes The next step is to understand how to combine all three of those elements, and the basis of that next step is diatonic (chord) theory. One From Berklee's approach, member JLeurck posted it best. One first must know how to "construct" chords. They use the numbers method to understand this... [Triads] Major = 1-----3-----5 Sus2 = 1-----2-----5 Sus4 = 1-----4-----5 Minor = 1-----b3-----5 Augmented = 1-----3-----#5 Diminished = 1-----b3-----b5 =========== [4-note chords] Major = 1-----3-----5-----8 Maj7 = 1-----3-----5-----7 Maj6 = 1-----3-----5-----6 Maj6/9 = 1-----3-----6-----9 Maj7/9 = 1-----3-----7-----9 Minor = 1-----b3-----5-----8 Min7 = 1-----b3-----5-----b7 Min(maj7) = 1-----b3-----5-----7 Min7 (b5) = 1-----b3-----b5-----b7 Dimisnished7 = 1-----b3-----b5-----bb7 Min6 = 1-----b3-----5-----6 Min6/9 = 1-----b3-----6-----9 Min7/9 = 1-----b3-----7-----9 =========== Two Know Thy Key Signatures Berklee then makes one understand all (15) Key signatures [scale Tones] 1-----2-----3-----4-----5-----6-----7-----8 (Key of C) C-----D-----E-----F-----G-----A-----B-----C (Key of G) G-----A-----B-----C-----D-----E-----F#-----G (Key of D) D-----E-----F#-----G-----A-----B-----C#-----D (Key of A) A-----B-----C#-----D-----E-----F#-----G#-----A (Key of E) E-----F#-----G#-----A-----B-----C#-----D#-----E -> If you notice, each Major Key is built in a cycle of fifths (5ths) -> The 7th Degree is sharped as to make for a 1/2 leading tone back to the "1" -> That sharped note is carried over into the next major key, and a new 7th degree is sharped accordingly. -> This cycle continues until you reach the key of C# Major, where all notes are sharp. (Key of C#) C#-----D#-----E#-----F#-----G#-----A#-----B#-----C# =========== Three Diatonic Harmony Using the information from Sections One and Two, you can now begin to "understand" harmonic structures/chord sequences. For example, the sequence G-----D-----A is from the Key of D Major, and is built off the Mixolydian tonal center (5th scale degree). Look at how the chords shap up in triads: --(G)-----(D)-----(A) CHORD NAMES --[5]D----[1]D----[3]C#--- --[3]B----[5]A----[1]A---- --[1]G----[3]F#---[5]E---- **There, you can take a D MAJOR Scale as your basis, wise to choose a "chord tone" note from the 1st chord to start with, then use the options from Section One -> Arpeggio -> Scale -> chromatic notes A melody line might look like this: G chord B -> D -> C# -> D D chord B -> Bb -> A -> G A chord F# -> F -> E -> D -> C# ===================================== Sorry it's wordy, but print this out and mull it over. It should get you focused down the track of understanding the basis of jazz improv. Best of luck, Berklee Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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