Members 50calexplorer Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 I haven't bothered to read this whole thread, but here's my .02. Murder is wrong. Period. Whether state sanctioned or not. Most christians I know spend far too much time in the Old Testament and ignore what Jesus Christ actually says in the New Testament. And lastly it costs in terms of common sense and money. It costs more to have an inmate executed than it does to lock him up for life. States with the death penalty have no difference in violent crime rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members david@legendarytones.com Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 I don't think he was offered Clemency in exchange for giving up information during the last hours. The news reports were stating that in the past, he had never been willing to do so - it was just a point that was made in order to show that he wasn't necessarily a fully changed man as was the claim made by the attorneys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rockys Mob Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by 50calexplorer It costs more to have an inmate executed than it does to lock him up for life. explain please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 50calexplorer Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Rockys Mob explain please A prisoner on death row costs more due to his appeals, housing, and all the other assorted costs of when we execute one these wackos. Court costs are the biggie though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members david@legendarytones.com Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 By the way, I totally agree with Steve VHT's take on this stuff. On another note, I'm not always an advocate of the death penalty, I have mixed feelings, but I know that in Europe there is a strong feeling of the death penalty NEVER being warranted, NO MATTER WHAT. For those that believe that way, would you feel that way still if your own child-aged daughter for example was forcibly raped and killed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members david@legendarytones.com Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by 50calexplorer A prisoner on death row costs more due to his appeals, housing, and all the other assorted costs of when we execute one these wackos. Court costs are the biggie though. This in my mind doesn't make it THE REASON to not have the death penalty. It IS however, a reason to try and fix the criminal justice system because it's obviously flawed there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stratotone Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Jack Luminous It's actually only one definition of murder. In many other language/countries, like mine for instance, the definition does not refer to law at all. So... Your country probably has fifty different ways to define surrender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 50calexplorer Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by david@legendarytones.com This in my mind doesn't make it THE REASON to not have the death penalty. It IS however, a reason to try and fix the criminal justice system because it's obviously flawed there. But what is the reason for the death penalty? Is it just a feel good thing? The problem isn't the criminal justice system, although we could argue all day about the cracks in that system, the cost is there to make sure we don't execute people who don't warrant it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kannibul Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by RockNote Exactly. When he can make his victims come alive again and take away the pain and suffering brought on by their deaths, i.e. when he can reverse time, then we'll consider a pardon. Mind you, Hitler was a painter. Actually, a surprisingly good one. Hitler never painted people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bstaley Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Stratotone Your country probably has fifty different ways to define surrender. Hahahahahaha...that's great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SkidMarx Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Jack Luminous Short sightedness at its best. You illustrate very well a common state of mind (on this forum at least). Others are starving ? I don't care.Large percentage of the population under poverty line ? I don't care.Large number of people completely illiterate ? I don't care.One percent of the total population in Prison ? I don't care.Nation's wealth largely based on war against other countries ? I don't care.My own country is polluting the planet like nobody's business ? I don't care.My own gov is advocating torture ? I don't care. We put ourselves in such a mess that we now need to torture people to defend ourselves ? I don't care.etc. etc.I'm a rich mother{censored}er who doesn't give a {censored} about anything or anyone so capitalism does work. I said all that, Jack? This is just wonderfully illustrative of the intolerance of liberals and their knee jerk reactionism. Because i simply said it has worked for me and my country you launch into this tantrum about well, just about everything you can think of. It's just more anti-Americanism from a Frenchman. My country is FULL of philanthropists, Jack. My tax dollars are handed out by the BILLIONS to other countries in need. My country spends more per citizen on education than most European nations. {censored} it, I'm not gonna' run down that list and play this game with you. To accuse me and my country of that garbage is pathetic, Jack. Take your frustrations out on someone else and don't put words in my mouth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duesentrieb Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by david@legendarytones.com For those that believe that way, would you feel that way still if your own child-aged daughter for example was forcibly raped and killed? Emotions like revenge when a close one gets murdered are completely understandable, but not tolerable. Thats why there is a jurisdiction and the christian and humanist values, on which our societies are based, shouldn't be twisted.IMO of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duesentrieb Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by SkidMarx My country spends more per citizen on education than most European nations. LOL - source? How comes that you guys have to pay for universities then? Or do you compare yourself to Albania? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SkidMarx Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Jack Luminous I still don't understand how all this fundie christians who voted for Bush and are in favor of the death penalty can rationalize their political choice with the "thou shall not kill" commandment. if you mean me, you are completely wrong. I am not in the Jesus club anymore, Jack. So my beliefs have nothing to do with religion. Nor should we pas laws based on religion. So your post is dumb, so there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SkidMarx Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Jack Luminous Everything's allright then. I'm a rich mother{censored}er too. Capitalism is cool ! yeah, we are ALL RICH!!!!!!!! Wealthy beyond our wildest dreams, every single one of us. I'm so stinking rich I wipe my ass with $100 dollar bills. Boy, you shore is one smart mother{censored}er, Jaques. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members david@legendarytones.com Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by 50calexplorer But what is the reason for the death penalty? Is it just a feel good thing? The problem isn't the criminal justice system, although we could argue all day about the cracks in that system, the cost is there to make sure we don't execute people who don't warrant it. In my mind (for example in the extreme case I described of a young child being raped and murdered), the death penalty puts ultimate closure to the case. I don't know if the death penalty works as a strong deterrant as some have argued - I believe it really doesn't. But what it DOES insure - when administered - is that particular criminal has NO chance of being let out, escaping, or being given a second chance that he wouldn't deserve. I know that people will say, "Well, if he's sentenced to life in prison with no possibility of parole, etc. etc." But to me, though YES, it does cost more to execute - I don't feel it's right that the criminal can just live in a cell, continue to be fed and clothed, exercise, go read books and study,etc. And ultimately, the State (i.e. our tax dollars) are being spent here keeping that class of criminal alive. The prisons are overfilled to the point where we let others out early. There are LOTS of issues and problems and things that could be argued. The bottom line feeling I have is that if someone were to brutally murder someone - especially a child - AND the case was clear through DNA and within reason - then YES, the death penalty provides closure and I think it is o.k. to execute criminals of that level. Whatever the cost. The difficulty with opinions is that everyone has them, but certainly in my mind there are monsters out there who should be put down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SteveVHT Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by kannibul Hitler never painted people He was too busy raping little boys and killing people to paint people... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mysticaxe Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 1. Is there any denying Tookie was a bad individual, tied to these murders, and most likely responsible (possibly directly) for any number of other murders? Keep in mind he was a founding member of a large, criminal organization. - No, anyone who believes otherwise is deluded. 2. Is there ANY circumstance in which Tookie would ever be allowed to walk the streets as a free man? - I certainly hope not... - How is keeping someone locked up for 30 (or 40 or 50) years not killing them, even if you don't pull the trigger? 3. Is there any denying that the cost of incarceration of such an individual (especially over 24 years) is, well, obscene? - The number that sticks in my head is about $500K/yr. 4. Are there better things California (in this case) could be doing with that money? - Education, economic development, updating infrastructure... - If you provide kids with a better education, they may not be in that position in the first place... The death penalty is a terrible thing, but for certain individuals, it has to be a viable solution. I'm not happy that they had to kill him, but I see it as the best choice in a terrible situation, and am sorry for the families involved that the whole mess got dragged out over 24 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members david@legendarytones.com Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Duesentrieb Emotions like revenge when a close one gets murdered are completely understandable, but not tolerable. Thats why there is a jurisdiction and the christian and humanist values, on which our societies are based, shouldn't be twisted. IMO of course I will agree to disagree with you. I don't agree that revenge is bad in that case. A person who would do this to my own daughter would be one deserving to die. They are not fit for society. Me WANTING that person dead AFTER he has committed such a crime is not wrong. I believe this way because it is the criminal that began the act of the crime - and for the ultimate crime should come the ultimate punishment.I understand that two wrongs don't make a right, but I argue that the wanting of revenge after a murder comes so brutally is NOT a wrong thing. The person who acted FIRST in the murder and would do it for their own sick pleasure (or other reason?) is the one who was wrong. The person who seeks revenge to eliminate this person afterward is not in the wrong.All just one person's opinion of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duesentrieb Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by mysticaxe The death penalty is a terrible thing, but for certain individuals, it has to be a viable solution. All I can say (again) is, have a google search for the speech of the former gov. of Illinois Ryan. He had really good evidence and facts to stop executions in Illinois. And he and his team investigated deeply. As Knut said: if there could be just one innocent hanged, gassed, injected, chaired, whatever - its not justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chirpy_72 Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Primex You americans sucks definitly. But probably that's not a news for ya. The whole world is laughing about the stupid american folk. I would say we practice these methods of killing people some hundred years ago. And thats time were you mentaly live. Good luck. Noone's laughing at you germans ... you don't have to practice killing folks ... not since you perfected the method with those ovens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SkidMarx Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Duesentrieb One of the biggest mistakes HERE is, that Schwarzenegger still has the rights to own an austrian EU-passport. This was the third time that he denied the chance . . . you sound like a child, Olaf. Because you didn't get your way he should be banned from going to his home country? Pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shredhead666 Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Jack Luminous It's actually only one definition of murder. In many other language/countries, like mine for instance, the definition does not refer to law at all. So... But we're not talking about your country now are we? Maybe in Tasmania murder means to suck a tit? WTF is your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Duesentrieb Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by david@legendarytones.com All just one person's opinion of course. Yup. Same here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SkidMarx Posted December 13, 2005 Members Share Posted December 13, 2005 Originally posted by Jack Luminous No sorry I don't understand your question. So please explain how death penalty isn't murder ? because murder is an unjust and unlawful killing while the death penalty is a just and lawful killing. You don't have to like it, Jack. But those are facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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