Bad Cat Alley Cat - a huge disappointment! :(

[azzzy]

While the majority keeps dropping an inordinate amounts of money on 100 W heads and hauling 200 lb. of gear to gigs only to be yelled at by the sound guy and the bandmates, I've been searching for something more practical - a small combo (under 25 lb.) with a 12" speaker. So far I settled on a vintage Fender Musicmaster. It's light but isn't very loud. I think my Fender Pro Jr. was louder (oh, if only it had a 12" speaker!). I've been curious about Bad Cat amps for a while, the Minicat II in particular. But then I heard about the Alley Cat, which was supposedly a 2 channel amp with modern high-gain I finally got off my ass and went to the store to check it out. In theory that would end my quest. If I could have 2 footswitchable channels in a tiny combo that I could mic, I wouldn't even have to bring a pedal! (and my pedals are pretty hefty - I use either SIB! Varidrive or Mesa V-Twin). So...

 

I was very disappointed with the amp. The so-called high-gain channel doesn't get anywhere near modern voicing. It sounds more like an overdiven amp suitable for country music and possibly for some classic rock. With some eq I managed to get some decent crunchy rhythm sounds but the lead tones just aren't there. The clean channel suffered too because the eq is dedicated to the drive channel there is no way to adjust your clean sound. And as it is, it's not perfect. The high-gain channel had nice definition but the notes just wouldn't sustain. The guitar I tested the amp with was a PRS 20th anniversary Single Cut ([borat] Very niiiice [/borat]), so it wasn't the guitar. Overall I'm glad that I saved myself $1200. Bottom line is if you were wondering what Alley Cat is like, wonder no more - it sucks.

 

Rant: Why can't manufacturers come up with a version of their 2-channel amps and just put them into smaller (lighter) combos? Why everything that's less than 20 watts is a single channel? Why most of lighter 2-channel combos weigh over 30 lb.? Is it not possible to make a combo with 2 footswitchable channels, one of which is a modern high-gain (ala SLO 100/Uberchall), and stick it into a 14"x14"x8" combo with a 12" Neodymium speaker and keep it under 25 lb.? Come on!!!

[Sordid1]

weird I checked out a hot cat 30 combo a year or so ago and thought it sounded smokin' good. It had a really weird eq though so you had to mess with it a while to get the goods.

[JamesPeters]

 

Originally posted by azzzy Rant: Why can't manufacturers come up with a version of their 2-channel amps and just put them into smaller (lighter) combos? Why everything that's less than 20 watts is a single channel? Why most of lighter 2-channel combos weigh over 30 lb.? Is it not possible to make a combo with 2 footswitchable channels, one of which is a modern high-gain (ala SLO 100/Uberchall), and stick it into a 14"x14"x8" combo with a 12" Neodymium speaker and keep it under 25 lb.? Come on!!!

 

 

1) If you want it to sound good, with appropriate headroom for modern high gain, don't expect to get it in something below 20W.

 

2) Good transformers weigh a lot. Shaving off a pound or two by using a lighter speaker pales in comparison to using cheapass transformers and cutting down the weight further (and trust me, you wouldn't like that). So the reality is that a good sounding tube combo amp with a single 12" speaker is going to weigh around 30lbs+. Wood ~12lbs, transformers ~10lbs+, chassis/components at least 3 pounds+, speaker minimum 5lbs = 30lbs+.

 

3) 14"x14"x8" is hardly adequate space for a good sounding 1x12 cabinet, not suitable for modern high gain anyway (let alone the electronics that have to fit in the enclosure).

[Bob Chapman]

 

Originally posted by azzzy

 

 

Soldano has a nice small combo. About 18 watts and plenty of gain, plus reverb. I think it's called Astroverb, or something. A bit on the noisy side, but that could have been the stock tubes. Nice verb too!

[azzzy]

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters 1) If you want it to sound good, with appropriate headroom for modern high gain, don't expect to get it in something below 20W.

 

 

Why not? I play my Soldano X88R preamp into a Mesa 20/20, which is a 20 watt amp, and it sounds fantastic!

 

I also get the most brutal tones out of my 12 watt Fender Musicmaster with the pedals (and used to get them out of the Pro Jr.).

 

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters 2) Good transformers weigh a lot. Shaving off a pound or two by using a lighter speaker pales in comparison to using cheapass transformers and cutting down the weight further (and trust me, you wouldn't like that). So the reality is that a good sounding tube combo amp with a single 12" speaker is going to weigh around 30lbs+. Wood ~12lbs, transformers ~10lbs+, chassis/components at least 3 pounds+, speaker minimum 5lbs = 30lbs+.

 

 

20/20 isn't featherweight but it essentially has 2 20 watt amps inside, so I'm guessing if it had only one that would be half the weight. Plus I also think the chassis could be lighter (I don't know if they are steel, but even if they are aluminum, they could be thinner if it's going to be inside a combo). The X88R is very light - I'm guessing around 5 pounds, most of which is the chassis. If the preamp was combined with the amp, it wouldn't add that much weight. As for the enclosure, see 3).

 

On a different note, what about toroidal transformers? Has anyone tried those? Aren't they supposed to be like fraction of the weight?

 

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters 3) 14"x14"x8" is hardly adequate space for a good sounding 1x12 cabinet, not suitable for modern high gain anyway (let alone the electronics that have to fit in the enclosure).

 

 

Something that puts out under 20 watt would have to be miked anyway. Who cares' what the enclosure sounds like? If one were to position the amp vertically behind the speaker (ala Fender Hot Rod series) I think it would be possible to fit it within 14" x 14" x whatever depth is required. No?

[azzzy]

Originally posted by Bob Chapman Soldano has a nice small combo. About 18 watts and plenty of gain, plus reverb. I think it's called Astroverb, or something. A bit on the noisy side, but that could have been the stock tubes. Nice verb too!

 

Well, it's 38 lb. AND it's a single channel. I love Soldano stuff but it's way bigger than what I would like to have.

[Bob Chapman]

 

Originally posted by azzzy How big is it? How much does it weigh?

 

I would guess at 14 high, 20 wide, and 12 deep. Maybe about 35lbs and the gain is very much like the lead channel on your X88. If I had that preamp I would never think of a combo. All combos sound like a box to me! Why not get a stereo 2x12 and just stick with your 20/20 & X88?

[JamesPeters]

Originally posted by azzzy Why not? I play my Soldano X88R preamp into a Mesa 20/20, which is a 20 watt amp, and it sounds fantastic!

 

That's 20W, class AB. Not below 20W.

 

Originally posted by azzzy I also get the most brutal tones out of my 12 watt Fender Musicmaster with the pedals (and used to get them out of the Pro Jr.).

 

No you don't. Seriously though for you it might be fine, but if an amp were made like that, more than half the people buying it would be disappointed with the lack of headroom.

 

Originally posted by azzzy 20/20 isn't featherweight but it essentially has 2 20 watt amps inside, so I'm guessing if it had only one that would be half the weight.

 

No, but it would be somewhat lighter.

 

And, it uses smaller transformers than I'm already comfortable with, so keep that in mind when considering its weight.

 

Originally posted by azzzy Plus I also think the chassis could be lighter (I don't know if they are steel, but even if they are aluminum, they could be thinner if it's going to be inside a combo). The X88R is very light - I'm guessing around 5 pounds, most of which is the chassis. If the preamp was combined with the amp, it wouldn't add that much weight. As for the enclosure, see 3).

 

Wood enclosure = 12lbs minimum, most likely 15lbs or more. Making the chassis thin aluminum is a bad idea in any case, and won't save much weight.

 

Originally posted by azzzy On a different note, what about toroidal transformers? Has anyone tried those? Aren't they supposed to be like fraction of the weight?

 

You tell me. Seriously though, the power transformer being torodial, ok. It would be more expensive and add to the cost, which is something that's frequently criticized. And the output transformer, whether that's good as a torodial or not, I couldn't tell you...I don't know anyone that makes torodial guitar output transformers.

 

Originally posted by azzzy Something that puts out under 20 watt would have to be miked anyway. Who cares' what the enclosure sounds like?

 

Everyone who plays the amp in person.

 

One more thing I forgot to mention in my above post was cost. You no doubt expect a channel switching low powered combo to have all the features of the "big brother" head model, and also be the same price as a head or less; that's not feasible unless the price scheme is skewed in the first place.

 

These are all reasons solid state practice amps are so popular. Lower cost, lower weight, smaller, more features put in a smaller space.

[JamesPeters]

 

Originally posted by Bob Chapman Soldano has a nice small combo. About 18 watts and plenty of gain, plus reverb. I think it's called Astroverb, or something. A bit on the noisy side, but that could have been the stock tubes. Nice verb too!

 

 

It's like the crunch channel of the SLO, so that's hardly what most people here would consider "modern high gain". Ask Soldano why they don't make something like the SLO's lead channel in a lower powered amp and he'll tell you the same thing I do: the headroom isn't adequate. That's why some people consider the Astroverb and Atomic to be "modern high gain"; they just want lower headroom but not the modern high gain sound so they get more power tube distortion, and they associate that with having "more gain".

[JBecker]

You have a lot of misconceptions about amps and how they're constructed and what that means in relation to their sound.

 

First off, you'll find almost no one on this board who thinks that the Fender Pro Jr. + VTwin gives them the most brutal of sounds. Not to say you cant make it work great, but there is a reason that by in large, people aren't going to agree with you. Second, most of the "brutal" sounds you're talking about come from relatively clean poweramps and very distorted preamps. Clean poweramp= more watts for head room. There are countless threads on how more watts affect the feel and "beef" of an amp. Third, the size and quality of the enclosure makes a huge difference in the sound it produces. Does an amp mic'd sound tremendously different than it does in the room? If you think they do, then you should have tried the Alley Cat mic'd since that's how you'd use it, if that's not so, then are you going to argue the enclosure doesn't affect the room sound?

 

Big transformers (and quality one's at that) weigh a good amount and have a huge effect on the body of your sound and the feel of an amp. It's a big sacrifice, as James said, to go light and stingy on them.

[azzzy]

Originally posted by JamesPeters That's 20W, class AB. Not below 20W.

 

So what happens below 20 W? If the headroom is what makes the high-gain tones "modern" (which is arguable in my opinion), I'm fine with staying at lower volumes. In fact I would love for the amp to be less loud.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters No you don't. Seriously though for you it might be fine, but if an amp were made like that, more than half the people buying it would be disappointed with the lack of headroom.

 

I guess that depends on how it was marketed. I think I am not the only one out there looking for a low power portable tube amp with aforementioned features. If it were properly explained what it's for and how it's supposed to be used, maybe the percentage of people not liking it would be the same as with any amp.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters And, it uses smaller transformers than I'm already comfortable with, so keep that in mind when considering its weight.

 

It works, so personally I am comfortable with it.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters Wood enclosure = 12lbs minimum, most likely 15lbs or more. Making the chassis thin aluminum is a bad idea in any case, and won't save much weight.

 

I don't know why you say it has to be 12 lb. minimum. Depending on the wood, on the thickness of the walls, thickness of the baffle, on whether it's closed or open back, and of course on the overall dimensions I think it could be lighter. For example I was looking at the Mesa F-30. I believe that enclosure could be much smaller. Of course, it would sacrifice the un-miked sound but it would cut the weight of the cabinet almost in half!

 

I am thinking of maybe taking an F-30 and putting it into a custom made small enclosure. But I know that Mesa chassis are usually pretty heavy by itself, so that might not cut enough weight. Everything has to work together.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters You tell me. Seriously though, the power transformer being torodial, ok. It would be more expensive and add to the cost, which is something that's frequently criticized. And the output transformer, whether that's good as a torodial or not, I couldn't tell you...I don't know anyone that makes torodial guitar output transformers.

 

I would pay premium for the toroidal transformer. To me the amp isn't something I buy every year. If it will save me the hassle of dragging a heavy box up and down the stairs on countless gigs over the years, I think it's totally worth the money. I don't know how toroidal transformers affect the sound. I wonder if anybody has input on that.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters Everyone who plays the amp in person.

 

Once again, that depends on how the amp is marketed. In other words, depends on what people expect from the amp. When most people are checking out Fender Blues Deluxe not a lot of folks are disappointed with the absence of the high-gain. Or better yet, when somebody tries out an isolation cabinet, they don't dislike it because there is no audible sound coming from it.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters One more thing I forgot to mention in my above post was cost. You no doubt expect a channel switching low powered combo to have all the features of the "big brother" head model, and also be the same price as a head or less; that's not feasible unless the price scheme is skewed in the first place.

 

Once again, I wouldn't mind paying as much as I paid for my 100 watt head. At least in this case I could use all of the available watts.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters These are all reasons solid state practice amps are so popular. Lower cost, lower weight, smaller, more features put in a smaller space.

 

I believe the solid state amps are popular mostly because of the lower cost. The weight isn't that much lower and size-wise (because of the speaker) they are usually comparable to tube combos. But more importantly, to most people sound comes first, and if they can afford it, they buy it regardless of what it weighs or how big it is. Just like I did.

[azzzy]

Originally posted by AtarisPunk29 You have a lot of misconceptions about amps and how they're constructed and what that means in relation to their sound.

 

Why don't you enlighten me on what those misconceptions are? Please.

 

Originally posted by AtarisPunk29 First off, you'll find almost no one on this board who thinks that the Fender Pro Jr. + VTwin gives them the most brutal of sounds. Not to say you cant make it work great, but there is a reason that by in large, people aren't going to agree with you.

 

Just because they don't know how to do it, doesn't mean I have misconceptions about how amps work, does it? In fact, that would probably mean that those people have misconceptions about amps, no? For crying out loud, I once did a gig with a Pignose and a Digitech RP100 (miked, of course) and people were asking me where my 4x12 was and whether the amp was Mesa or Uber. The other guitarist was playing a TSL100 and my sound was thicker and tighter!

 

Originally posted by AtarisPunk29 Second, most of the "brutal" sounds you're talking about come from relatively clean poweramps and very distorted preamps.

 

Sorry, I tend to disagree with you here. If that were the case the tube amps would sound their best at lower volumes. But the opposite is true - everybody is trying to turn up their amps to at least 2 o'clock - the point after which the amps sound their best. It's just that in a club situation it's virtually impossible to do without heavy attenuation, which also negatively affects tone. So why not get a lower power amp? You won't get as much volume out of it but you don't need that much anyway! And if you need to be louder - mic it!

 

Originally posted by AtarisPunk29 Clean poweramp= more watts for head room. There are countless threads on how more watts affect the feel and "beef" of an amp.

 

Could it be that higher wattage amps are just louder and therefore appear to be more powerful? I have recorded my Soldano X88R through a 20 watt Mesa 20/20 and through a 100 watt power section of my Mesa Dual Recto. And at approximately the same volume 20/20 sounded thicker, richer and more dense. To achieve similar tone I would have to crank the Dual Recto power amp, which would make it inhumanly loud.

 

Originally posted by AtarisPunk29 Third, the size and quality of the enclosure makes a huge difference in the sound it produces. Does an amp mic'd sound tremendously different than it does in the room? If you think they do, then you should have tried the Alley Cat mic'd since that's how you'd use it, if that's not so, then are you going to argue the enclosure doesn't affect the room sound?

 

What I did not like about Alley Cat was its lack of gain, which had nothing to do with the enclosure. Speaking of which, Alley Cat, despite its smaller size, is actually pretty heavy. My guess is around 30 lb.

 

Originally posted by AtarisPunk29 Big transformers (and quality one's at that) weigh a good amount and have a huge effect on the body of your sound and the feel of an amp. It's a big sacrifice, as James said, to go light and stingy on them.

 

I am not questioning the need for big transformers. However, if I understand correctly, the smaller wattage amps need smaller transformers. If Mesa does it with their 20/20, others can do it too. And also see my previous post about the toroidals.

[JamesPeters]

So what happens below 20 W?

 

My personal "won't cross that line" point is generally two output tubes in class AB--normal tubes too (EL84 and 6V6 being the smallest ones I consider "normal" for output tubes).

 

Headroom. And again, the ones in the 20/20 are borderline for my tastes; I prefer ones with more headroom than that, for anything resembling modern high gain.

 

If the headroom is what makes the high-gain tones "modern" (which is arguable in my opinion), I'm fine with staying at lower volumes. In fact I would love for the amp to be less loud.

 

Turn the volume down then. I'm not even joking. If the amp sounds like crap at lower volumes, it's not because it has more power on tap.

 

I guess that depends on how it was marketed. I think I am not the only one out there looking for a low power portable tube amp with aforementioned features. If it were properly explained what it's for and how it's supposed to be used, maybe the percentage of people not liking it would be the same as with any amp.

 

People will in fact get it expecting it to be something it isn't, then be upset about it. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can trust me on that since I speak from experience; I've learned this the hard way.

 

It works, so personally I am comfortable with it.

 

Of course. But that's you, and you are most likely in the minority.

 

I don't know why you say it has to be 12 lb. minimum.

 

Get some plywood, measure it out, cut it, put it on a scale, and weigh it. A headshell alone for one of my smaller amps weighed 8lbs, and those were tiny. Use thin wood, and you get a piece of crap that falls apart when you sneeze at it. Make it too small, it sounds like crap. 12lbs is a reasonable estimate for the wood weight of a small combo of decent quality.

 

I believe that enclosure could be much smaller. Of course, it would sacrifice the un-miked sound but it would cut the weight of the cabinet almost in half!

 

"Sacrifice the un-miked sound", ha ha! Do you realize how silly that sounds? Again, you are in the minority. People want the amps to sound good while they're playing them, in the room. If not, might as well buy a POD.

 

I am thinking of maybe taking an F-30 and putting it into a custom made small enclosure. But I know that Mesa chassis are usually pretty heavy by itself, so that might not cut enough weight. Everything has to work together.

 

The chassis itself isn't very heavy at all. Again, it's one of the lighter parts of the equation.

 

And their transformers, despite being lighter (smaller) than some amps, would still probably not be light enough for what you expect.

 

Once again, I wouldn't mind paying as much as I paid for my 100 watt head. At least in this case I could use all of the available watts.

 

It should cost more because it is not just an amp that costs the same as the larger model with the same features, but it would also have a larger enclosure (compared to a head) with more time spent to build it, plus speakers. Unless you wanted them to cheap out and use crummy transformers, in which case the price might be the same. (Or if you didn't mind the fact that the price of their 100W model would be jacked up so high as to allow a combo with the same features to be the same price.)

 

And "using the available watts", how backwards is that line of thinking...

 

I would pay premium for the toroidal transformer.

 

If a company pays more for a component, you don't just pay extra for the component to the extent that the company does; you pay more and then some. And if an amp is made like that, it has to be done like that across the board. If the model doesn't sell as well as they'd hoped, they lose money.

 

These are guitarists here, you realize. Some of the most stubborn people who resist change and won't bother listening to "explanations" or marketing about weight etc. And I don't say this with spite, but it is the truth. There wouldn't be 80% of electric guitars resembling Fender and Gibson if that weren't the case. And, amps that looked different would be widely accepted (don't get me started about that one ).

 

But more importantly, to most people sound comes first, and if they can afford it, they buy it regardless of what it weighs or how big it is. Just like I did.

 

That's what I'm talking about. Make it small and light for the sake of being small and light, and say goodbye to the possibility of even a person like you buying the amp. Do you see how ironic this situation is now? You don't even really know what you want. You assume you want something which you probably don't. It's up to the manufacturer to figure that out and sell things they know you want, or they fail and lose money.

[JBecker]

Originally posted by azzzy Why don't you enlighten me on what those misconceptions are? Please. Just because they don't know how to do it, doesn't mean I have misconceptions about how amps work, does it? In fact, that would probably mean that those people have misconceptions about amps, no? For crying out loud, I once did a gig with a Pignose and a Digitech RP100 (miked, of course) and people were asking me where my 4x12 was and whether the amp was Mesa or Uber. The other guitarist was playing a TSL100 and my sound was thicker and tighter!

 

I am willing to bet my entire rig I wouldn't make the smae mistake. Either those people don't know how to listen for guitar tones or they don't know how to dial their amps. With a great set of fingers I am sure you can make just about anything sound great, but that doesn't mean that this is a "better" solution. I've plaid plenty of Fender Pro Jrs and Blues Jrs. to know that distorting their powertubes + a Vtwin does not sound like an Uberschall, not even a little. And I pretty much never play "high gain".

 

 

Originally posted by azzzy Sorry, I tend to disagree with you here. If that were the case the tube amps would sound their best at lower volumes. But the opposite is true - everybody is trying to turn up their amps to at least 2 o'clock - the point after which the amps sound their best. It's just that in a club situation it's virtually impossible to do without heavy attenuation, which also negatively affects tone. So why not get a lower power amp? You won't get as much volume out of it but you don't need that much anyway! And if you need to be louder - mic it!

 

No, if this were the case, many high gain tube amps that were designed well and around preamp gain would sound just as good at lower volumes. James happens to make many amps that sound good all over the volume spectrum on their knobs from every review I've read. Plus, by clean, I mean relatively. The power tubes on a Mesa Recto are not designed ot break up nearly as much as an AC30 for a reason.

Originally posted by azzzy Could it be that higher wattage amps are just louder and therefore appear to be more powerful? I have recorded my Soldano X88R through a 20 watt Mesa 20/20 and through a 100 watt power section of my Mesa Dual Recto. And at approximately the same volume 20/20 sounded thicker, richer and more dense. To achieve similar tone I would have to crank the Dual Recto power amp, which would make it inhumanly loud.

It's not "power" it's a different feel. Large transformers are often associated with tighter low ends (i.e., more usable bass response). If you don't believe me, check out amps that are known to have "overbuilt" transformers. Dr. Zs are a great examples.

Originally posted by azzzy What I did not like about Alley Cat was its lack of gain, which had nothing to do with the enclosure. Speaking of which, Alley Cat, despite its smaller size, is actually pretty heavy. My guess is around 30 lb.

I wasn't talking about how much gain the amp actually has.

Originally posted by azzzy I am not questioning the need for big transformers. However, if I understand correctly, the smaller wattage amps need smaller transformers. If Mesa does it with their 20/20, others can do it too. And also see my previous post about the toroidals.

 

And see James' post. No one even makes toroidals designed for guitar amplification purpose to even try. James lists several reasons. I'll differ to him since I am unfamiliar with that technology..

[17 Tubes]

Azzzy.

 

 

You didn't find the H&K Edition Tube 20 nice?

 

 

I am sure you checked it out...right?

[phyrexia]

Good luck fitting an F30 in anything smaller than the standard compact combo enclosure - it's only the same size Mesa has used for twenty or more years, after all.

[Alchemist]

I thought the alley cat sounded awesome:), but I still prefer the Cub IIR

[JBecker]

 

Originally posted by Alchemist I thought the alley cat sounded awesome:), but I still prefer the Cub IIR

 

 

I was wondering about these amps (hence I opened this thread and started responding). Care to give a bit more on this amp?

[Alchemist]

 

Originally posted by AtarisPunk29 I was wondering about these amps (hence I opened this thread and started responding). Care to give a bit more on this amp?

 

 

My experience is pretty limited with them. I just thought they had this really pleasant tone, and this gainy mid presence that I just havent found on any other amp. The only way I can describe the tone is GREAT!. I was very close to buying one, but I didnt because several american bad cat dealers werent being helpful (one said my warranty wouldnt be valid if I ordered one from the USA??? wtf is that about).... so I would have to go to the Canadian dealer. Well the Canadian dealer is asking rediculous prices! So no badcat for me.... at least for the time being:(

 

As far as the premise of the post from the OP. I think its pretty stupid, I dont think these amps were ever intended to be used for what he had in mind. Its like starting a post about how much a certain brand of drill sucks because its not good at hammering nails:freak:

[JohnRageOn]

I've read the whole thread so far and came to some conclusions. You just can't have it all!

If X88R and Mesa 20/20 does you the trick why don't you just stick with them and still want something smaller (your current rig is already too small).

X88 has a toroidal transformer because it's a preamp and has to have as less electromagnetic interference as possible with other devices, in a limited enclosure, and less hum as well (ps the toroidal is a power supply trannie in this case and not an output one obviously).

Output tranformers are the ones that add more weight!

If you also want a good hi-gain (with 3 gain stages ) combo, try to get a VHT Super 30, you won't be dissapointed.

[Voodoo Amps]

Rant: Why can't manufacturers come up with a version of their 2-channel amps and just put them into smaller (lighter) combos? Why everything that's less than 20 watts is a single channel? Why most of lighter 2-channel combos weigh over 30 lb.? Is it not possible to make a combo with 2 footswitchable channels, one of which is a modern high-gain (ala SLO 100/Uberchall), and stick it into a 14"x14"x8" combo with a 12" Neodymium speaker and keep it under 25 lb.? Come on!!!

 

Here's something you can do that will give you a bit more insight with regards to weight; Take a 50 watt head and set it on a scale to see how much it weights keeping in mind that a majority of the weight comes from the transformers (25 watt amps generally do not weight much less unless assuming you are using high quality transformers). Now remove the amp and set your favorite speaker on the scale. Now add the two weights together and factor a few more pounds for the additional wood that a 1x12 combo enclosure will require.

 

Can a combo weight in at 25lbs? Naturally anything is possible however you also have to factor in the change in tone that will undoubtedly occur. IE: The transformers comprise most of the weight in an amp head therefore in order to reduce the weight you would most likely have to use under rated/smaller transformers. For example and the tone will change considerably. Speakers; You can use Neodymium to reduce weight and increase bottom end but it does not sound the same (we've done exhaustive A/B comparisons).

 

It's all just food for thought. Tone means many things to many people and some are willing to settle for something that many others are not and vice versa.

 

 

Have a great day!

Trace

[Voodoo Amps]

On a different note, what about toroidal transformers? Has anyone tried those? Aren't they supposed to be like fraction of the weight?

 

Not necessarily, have you seen the power transformers on some of the Laney VH/GH series? They are pretty big and weigh as much as a regular power transformer with the same general specs but tend to take up a bit more physical room, which would naturally defeat the purpose of making the amp physically smaller/lighter. Generally speaking; Most torridal transformers are more costly and tend to be more widely used in hi-fi designs than guitar amps.

 

I would pay premium for the toroidal transformer. To me the amp isn't something I buy every year. If it will save me the hassle of dragging a heavy box up and down the stairs on countless gigs over the years, I think it's totally worth the money. I don't know how toroidal transformers affect the sound. I wonder if anybody has input on that.

 

I my humble opinion I doubt you will find a torridal transformer that is going to weight less given the application. Naturally you can make it smaller/under spec'ed however I would be prepared for the power as well as the output transformer to heat up and they do not sound nor feel the same (usually much worse).

 

Something that puts out under 20 watt would have to be miked anyway. Who cares' what the enclosure sounds like?

 

As most who have studied acoustic theory/design will tell you, miking the speaker does not exclude the way the cabinet/enclosure itself sounds (not to mention the room) as the enclosure has a direct impact on the way the amp sounds (IE: effects the way the speaker sounds/breaths, frequency response, etc) so naturally those who are into tone will very much care what the enclosure sounds like.

 

If one were to position the amp vertically behind the speaker (ala Fender Hot Rod series) I think it would be possible to fit it within 14" x 14" x whatever depth is required. No?

 

As with all things anything is possible. Making some thing fit into with confined dimensions while also having it sound good may very well be two totally different things.

 

Another way to look at this is; You may want to get into building yourself an amp that meets your specified demands. If you are successful where others have not been then you will of course have a winner/money maker on your hands thus allowing you to sell those to others who are in turn looking for the exact same thing that you are.

 

 

Again food for thought

Trace

[Sadowsky13]

Have you checked out the bogner Duende. Thye have sound clips on their website. It's 18watts and based on the clips sounds pretty good. I was considering getting one. WSound like it does i nice mix of clean and overdrive

[azzzy]

Originally posted by JamesPeters My personal "won't cross that line" point is generally two output tubes in class AB--normal tubes too (EL84 and 6V6 being the smallest ones I consider "normal" for output tubes). Headroom. And again, the ones in the 20/20 are borderline for my tastes; I prefer ones with more headroom than that, for anything resembling modern high gain.

 

Fender Pro Jr. and Blues Jr. for example are AB with 2 EL84's and they put out under 20 watts (15 w to be specific). In other words you can still have "normal" tubes and lower output.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters Turn the volume down then. I'm not even joking. If the amp sounds like crap at lower volumes, it's not because it has more power on tap.

 

Why then? And why does everybody talks about how much better the amps sound cracked and how much it sucks that it's impossible to play a 100 watt head in an apartment? Why do people need lower power practice amps if they could just keep their big amps at 1 and sound just as good? Why do isolation cabs exist? Why are power attenuators so popular? Come on! You can't be serious.

 

The amp may not sound "like crap" at lower volumes (which is also a relative concept) but it sure doesn't sound its full potential.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters People will in fact get it expecting it to be something it isn't, then be upset about it. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can trust me on that since I speak from experience; I've learned this the hard way.

 

I am not an expert on marketing, so I won't argue with you there.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters Of course. But that's you, and you are most likely in the minority.

 

Are you saying I am the only one who likes Mesa 20/20? Wha...? I think the reviews here on HC beg to differ.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters Get some plywood, measure it out, cut it, put it on a scale, and weigh it. A headshell alone for one of my smaller amps weighed 8lbs, and those were tiny. Use thin wood, and you get a piece of crap that falls apart when you sneeze at it. Make it too small, it sounds like crap. 12lbs is a reasonable estimate for the wood weight of a small combo of decent quality.

 

I will in fact try to make (or rather have my friend make) a smaller enclosure for my Musicmaster. I intend to use solid wood (instead of plywood) - probably pine. We'll see what I can get it down to.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters "Sacrifice the un-miked sound", ha ha! Do you realize how silly that sounds? Again, you are in the minority. People want the amps to sound good while they're playing them, in the room. If not, might as well buy a POD.

 

Apparently I do not realize how silly that sounds. I wouldn't have said it if I did. Perhaps I am in minority. It's not like I expect to make no sacrifices. I perfectly understand that a 15 watt amp won't sound exactly like a 100 watter. But I believe (hope - whatever) that it's possible to make a reasonable approximation. And in a live situation along with a band in a small club it will probably sit better in the mix and will sound more defined at the same time retaining the basic high-gain balls.

 

And for the record I do own a POD and play through it quite a bit.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters The chassis itself isn't very heavy at all. Again, it's one of the lighter parts of the equation. And their transformers, despite being lighter (smaller) than some amps, would still probably not be light enough for what you expect.

 

If I can shave off 2-3 pounds at the expense of the smaller enclosure that's already not bad. Replace the stock speaker with a Celestion Neo - that's another 6 lb. That's almost 10 lb. right there. And if the original weight is around 40 lb. that's 25% weight reduction!

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters It should cost more because it is not just an amp that costs the same as the larger model with the same features, but it would also have a larger enclosure (compared to a head) with more time spent to build it, plus speakers. Unless you wanted them to cheap out and use crummy transformers, in which case the price might be the same. (Or if you didn't mind the fact that the price of their 100W model would be jacked up so high as to allow a combo with the same features to be the same price.)

 

I was prepared to drop $1200 on a 7 watt combo with virtually no features (aside from 2 footswitchable channels). What does that tell you?

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters And "using the available watts", how backwards is that line of thinking...

 

How backwards? Tell me.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters If a company pays more for a component, you don't just pay extra for the component to the extent that the company does; you pay more and then some. And if an amp is made like that, it has to be done like that across the board. If the model doesn't sell as well as they'd hoped, they lose money. These are guitarists here, you realize. Some of the most stubborn people who resist change and won't bother listening to "explanations" or marketing about weight etc. And I don't say this with spite, but it is the truth. There wouldn't be 80% of electric guitars resembling Fender and Gibson if that weren't the case. And, amps that looked different would be widely accepted (don't get me started about that one ).

 

Well, maybe Fender and Gibson have better marketing strategies. Once again, I'm no expert, but I believe it's all about the exposure. You go to a GC and all you see are Fenders, Gibsons, PRS, Ibanez. Most people aren't even aware of the likes of McNaught whose guitars, while not cheap, beat any super-overpirced PRS or Gibson. Same thing with amps - Marshall, Fender and Mesa are what the majority knows.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters That's what I'm talking about. Make it small and light for the sake of being small and light, and say goodbye to the possibility of even a person like you buying the amp. Do you see how ironic this situation is now? You don't even really know what you want. You assume you want something which you probably don't. It's up to the manufacturer to figure that out and sell things they know you want, or they fail and lose money.

 

Well, now you're just plain insulting me. I know what I want. It's you - the manufacturer - who doesn't know how to make it happen. And yes, in the meantime I own gear that isn't exactly what I want (size/weight-wise) but that's only because you as a manufacturer haven't come up with something better.

[azzzy]

Originally posted by AtarisPunk29 I am willing to bet my entire rig I wouldn't make the smae mistake. Either those people don't know how to listen for guitar tones or they don't know how to dial their amps. With a great set of fingers I am sure you can make just about anything sound great, but that doesn't mean that this is a "better" solution. I've plaid plenty of Fender Pro Jrs and Blues Jrs. to know that distorting their powertubes + a Vtwin does not sound like an Uberschall, not even a little. And I pretty much never play "high gain".

 

I bet you're one of those guys who can tell by ear a humbucker in a Les Paul from a humbucker in a Strat, eh? I wasn't saying that what I get through small Fenders with a pedal is the same sound I get from my Dual Recto. But modern high-gain is not defined by a single amp. There are many amps that sound completely different and nevertheless equally represent modern high-gain.

 

Originally posted by AtarisPunk29 No, if this were the case, many high gain tube amps that were designed well and around preamp gain would sound just as good at lower volumes. James happens to make many amps that sound good all over the volume spectrum on their knobs from every review I've read. Plus, by clean, I mean relatively. The power tubes on a Mesa Recto are not designed ot break up nearly as much as an AC30 for a reason.

 

Please see my post above in response to James (the bit about isolation cabs and power attenuators).

 

Originally posted by AtarisPunk29 It's not "power" it's a different feel. Large transformers are often associated with tighter low ends (i.e., more usable bass response). If you don't believe me, check out amps that are known to have "overbuilt" transformers. Dr. Zs are a great examples.

 

Dr. Z amps are nowhere near modern high-gain. Which is beside the point. Overbuilt isn't bad but is it necessary? It's like putting premium gas into a Geo. It won't hurt but it won't make any difference either. I am not saying the transformer size doesn't matter but I think that for a smaller wattage amp a smaller (not tiny - just smaller) transformer would be sufficient.

 

Originally posted by AtarisPunk29 I wasn't talking about how much gain the amp actually has.

 

Well, you seemed to have suggested that if I listened to the Alley Cat miked I might have had a different opinion of it. But the reason I didn't like it had nothing to do with the room or the enclosure. It was the lack of gain where it was advertised as a modern high-gain channel.

 

Originally posted by AtarisPunk29 And see James' post. No one even makes toroidals designed for guitar amplification purpose to even try. James lists several reasons. I'll differ to him since I am unfamiliar with that technology..

 

If you have to differ to somebody else to rebuttal the point maybe you shouldn't mention the point at all. I don't know much about toroidal transformers either but I was told about them by another amp maker. Somebody who was making me a custom power amp. I wanted for him to make me a conventional model first to see if I would like it. I didn't and the toroidal version never happened.