Bad Cat Alley Cat - a huge disappointment! :(

[yngwiehendrix]

I think the solution to azzzy's problem here would be a gym membership:rolleyes:

[azzzy]

 

Originally posted by 17 Tubes Azzzy. You didn't find the H&K Edition Tube 20 nice? I am sure you checked it out...right?

 

 

As a matter of fact I did. How did you know??

 

Well, yes I liked it. But I think it was more in comparison to the Alley Cat in terms of high-gain sounds. I need more time with it to evaluate it properly. I'm afraid it may be a little "flat" sounding. In either case it weighs around 45-50 lb. At which point I could have just stuck with my Rect-O-Verb.

 

I am however curious about H&K amps. I wanna try out more of them when I have time.

[azzzy]

Originally posted by yngwiehendrix I think the solution to azzzy's problem here would be a gym membership:rolleyes:

 

I have a gym memebership, thank you. And I deadlift 410 lb. And I shrug 585 lb. That has nothing to do with carrying gear. It's not that I can't carry it. It's that I don't want to. How hard is it to understand?

[azzzy]

Originally posted by phyrexia Good luck fitting an F30 in anything smaller than the standard compact combo enclosure - it's only the same size Mesa has used for twenty or more years, after all.

 

Maybe it's time for change.

[JamesPeters]

Originally posted by azzzy Well, now you're just plain insulting me. I know what I want.

 

It's not a matter of insult, it's the truth at least in my eyes.

 

I know that two EL84 in class AB can be below 20W, but I generally prefer it when they're used for 20W, and it was my opinion I was talking about and not "what is possible". I can also apply the same to just about every argument you're trying to make here. You're not listening to what I'm saying overall. It seems it's more about winning the argument to you at this point.

 

And Trace does bring up a very important point: the enclosure always affects the sound, even when micing the amp. So if you compromise on the enclosure, you are compromising on the sound. Perhaps you won't be sacrificing as much as for the "sound in the room", but some people buying it for the actual intended purpose would still be upset with it, if it didn't perform as promised.

 

If you honestly think you know better than the manufacturers in this case, I think you should go for it--make an amp like that and see if it's something you can sell. See how it holds up against what people expect from modern high gain amps. I'm certainly not the expert of everything and I haven't tried absolutely every combination of elements for every possible amp, so you're welcome to prove me wrong. However, your own observations of the Bad Cat might give you an indication of what you're up against; you've assumed that the "problem" with the sound was that the amp's circuit wasn't designed for modern high gain. What if it's closer than you think, but the amp itself (with smaller transformers and enclosure) is hindering the amp's capability to sound like that.

[Cibyl]

Man,...nice thread.

 

Seriously, it just sounds like your whining, and not really listening to what James and Trace are saying. BTW, they are two successful amp builders so I wouldn't question much of what they say.

 

Why don't you just run a POD Pro direct for your gigs? It's obvious you don't want to deal with the hassle of hauling around a tube combo. There are a bunch of "amp-less" options to choose from nowadays,...or maybe try a Vetta II if you need an actual amp behind you.

[azzzy]

 

Originally posted by Alchemist I thought the alley cat sounded awesome:), but I still prefer the Cub IIR

 

 

For what kind of music did you think the Alley Cat was awesome?

 

 

Originally posted by Alchemist As far as the premise of the post from the OP. I think its pretty stupid, I dont think these amps were ever intended to be used for what he had in mind. Its like starting a post about how much a certain brand of drill sucks because its not good at hammering nails:freak:

 

 

I can't find it now (maybe I read it in a printed magazine) but I think I read it from Mark Samson or somebody from Bad Cat saying that Alley Cat overdrive channel "crosses over into modern high-gain territory" or something like that.

 

The closest I could find is from the MusicToyz website: "This amp in channel two just rips, really putting out a cranked out high gain sound."

 

Oh, and throwing around words like "stupid" isn't very constructive.

[JamesPeters]

 

Originally posted by azzzy Oh, and throwing around words like "stupid" isn't very constructive.

 

 

I tend to agree, especially if the amp were marketed as getting "modern high gain". If it can't--for any reason (including the fact they used a small enclosure etc.)--I can see how people could be disappointed with it. And that's why I don't try to make lower powered high gain amps anymore.

[Mr Ten]

have you tried the top hat super16? i demo'd a head + 1x12 and i was actually pretty surprised. superb master volume amp with plenty of range. i didn't think i wanted any more amps and i certainly got tempted there. didn't read your thread, have to admit, and not sure what the alley cat development intentions were, but i surprisingly recommend that top hat amp. never thought i would like them.

[azzzy]

 

Originally posted by JohnRageOn I've read the whole thread so far and came to some conclusions. You just can't have it all! If X88R and Mesa 20/20 does you the trick why don't you just stick with them and still want something smaller (your current rig is already too small).

 

 

Yes, it's more manageable than let's say a Rect-O-Verb, which is 55 lb. My rig now is about 45-50 lb. (depending on the speaker) and it's split in two - 25 lb. in each hand is easier than 50 in one. But even then I prefer to bring my Musicmaster with a pedal to a gig. I just wish it sounded better. But Musicmaster was never intended for this kind of thing anyway.

 

 

Originally posted by JohnRageOn X88 has a toroidal transformer because it's a preamp and has to have as less electromagnetic interference as possible with other devices, in a limited enclosure, and less hum as well (ps the toroidal is a power supply trannie in this case and not an output one obviously). Output tranformers are the ones that add more weight!

 

 

As I understand we were talking about OT in the power amps. Preamps are fairly light and don't really need any modifications to cut weight any further.

 

 

Originally posted by JohnRageOn If you also want a good hi-gain (with 3 gain stages ) combo, try to get a VHT Super 30, you won't be dissapointed.

 

 

Once again, how big is it and how much does it weigh? Looks heavy.

[azzzy]

Originally posted by JamesPeters It's not a matter of insult, it's the truth at least in my eyes.

 

I am sure you didn't mean it as such. But I have a pretty good idea of what I want. I just don't know how to make it. But then I am just a guitar player. Building amplifiers isn't what I'm good at. I am not even that good at playing guitar.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters I know that two EL84 in class AB can be below 20W, but I generally prefer it when they're used for 20W, and it was my opinion I was talking about and not "what is possible". I can also apply the same to just about every argument you're trying to make here. You're not listening to what I'm saying overall. It seems it's more about winning the argument to you at this point.

 

Well, winning the argument is nice but really isn't my goal. I wanted to see how many people think the same way I do, and I am surprised to find out that so far I am alone. Even though I've seen plenty of threads about low power amps started by other people before. Oh well, that doesn't change my opinion that a 25 lb. combo is more practical than a half stack.

 

As for the other reasons, I am posting, I am glad to see that you as an amp manufacturer chime in this discussion. I wish other amp makers did too. Unfortunately I am not familiar with your particular amps. If I were and if I liked them this discussion would be more specific and possibly resulted in me asking you to make me a custom amp. Or not. As it is, it's just an abstract exercise in wishful thinking.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters And Trace does bring up a very important point: the enclosure always affects the sound, even when micing the amp. So if you compromise on the enclosure, you are compromising on the sound. Perhaps you won't be sacrificing as much as for the "sound in the room", but some people buying it for the actual intended purpose would still be upset with it, if it didn't perform as promised.

 

Yes, enclosure affects the sound, no argument there. But just because the sound becomes different doesn't necessarily mean it becomes worse. The most brutal tones I've ever gotten - tighter and ballsier than the ones I'm getting now out of my Mesa's and Soldano into a 4x12 - I recorded when I didn't know much about amp setups. It was a tube preamp of a Digitech 2020 (or whatever that number was) into the clean channel of a cranked Fender HRD. Open back enclosure. I recently tried to recreate those tones through a 4x12 with the dedicated high-gain amps. No luck. The point is the amp can be altered/designed to accommodate an enclosure different from the standard 4x12 or 3/4 closed back combo.

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters If you honestly think you know better than the manufacturers in this case, I think you should go for it--make an amp like that and see if it's something you can sell. See how it holds up against what people expect from modern high gain amps. I'm certainly not the expert of everything and I haven't tried absolutely every combination of elements for every possible amp, so you're welcome to prove me wrong. However, your own observations of the Bad Cat might give you an indication of what you're up against; you've assumed that the "problem" with the sound was that the amp's circuit wasn't designed for modern high gain. What if it's closer than you think, but the amp itself (with smaller transformers and enclosure) is hindering the amp's capability to sound like that.

 

I don't think I know better than the manufacturers. And I have no idea how to make an amplifier. I can't even change pickups in my guitars. However I have made certain observations from the user standpoint. For example I have a low wattage (15 watt or so) power amp (for sale in the sig) that I specifically ordered for my X88R. It's very quiet (as in not loud). About quarter of the loudness of the Mesa 20/20. But the high-gain sounds like high-gain (the reason I'm selling it is I don't like the way the cleans sound through it - too flat). So in the case of the Bad Cat I believe it IS the circuit design. I think if the Soldano X88R preamp was coupled with the Alley Cat power section I may have already bought that amp.

 

As for making a conceptually new amp, there are always those who say something is impossible. And there are others who don't listen and try anyway. They often fail, of course. But without them there would be no progress. Now, I can't make an amp and don't have the time to learn how, but I am hoping that somebody out there will get inspired by the challenge and make it.

[JamesPeters]

I think we'd ultimately all prefer amps to be as portable as possible and light. My (evidently belabored) point is that with what's available now, and what guitarists will accept under these circumstances, make it less feasible to have an amp of that kind in such a small/light format. Also, if it were possible most guitarists wouldn't consider buying it unless it were significantly cheaper just because it's lower powered; that also serves to make such a product infeasible.

 

And I certainly wouldn't mind being proven wrong. It's just that every small amp I've played (with a small enclosure) has sounded small. I also know that for what I do (which includes modern high gain), using a small enclosure ties my hands in the design stage such that it's not practical to consider anything that's along those modern high gain lines in a format that small.

[azzzy]

Originally posted by Voodoo Amps Can a combo weight in at 25lbs? Naturally anything is possible however you also have to factor in the change in tone that will undoubtedly occur. IE: The transformers comprise most of the weight in an amp head therefore in order to reduce the weight you would most likely have to use under rated/smaller transformers. For example and the tone will change considerably. Speakers; You can use Neodymium to reduce weight and increase bottom end but it does not sound the same (we've done exhaustive A/B comparisons).

 

Yeah, but if I want a lower wattage amp I can use a smaller transformer, is it not true? I am not talking tiny, but even 1/2 lb. in weight reduction would contribute to overall lighter design. Besides every time you guys are talking about transformers, it sounds like they take up half the weight of the combo. There are other places where weight could be cut - mainly the enclosure. Half a pound here and there, and it will become significant. And it's not just the weight - smaller dimensions also would aid to make it a more convenient to carry.

 

I agree the Neo's sound different from conventional Celestions, but once again, they don't sound worse in my opinion. I like 'em. In fact they probably suited better for modern hi-gain than old school Celestions.

 

Originally posted by Voodoo Amps It's all just food for thought. Tone means many things to many people and some are willing to settle for something that many others are not and vice versa.

 

Yes, tone would be different from a conventional 4x12 or even 1x12, but not necessarily worse. And if it's made specifically to be miced... You know, an electric solid body guitar doesn't sound all that great unplugged. Same could be said for such small combo, where the enclosure is made purely to hold the amp and the speaker together for convenience and portability, and its acoustic sound properties are secondary because it's tailored specifically to be miced. Is that such a horrible idea?

 

Originally posted by Voodoo Amps Not necessarily, have you seen the power transformers on some of the Laney VH/GH series? They are pretty big and weigh as much as a regular power transformer with the same general specs but tend to take up a bit more physical room, which would naturally defeat the purpose of making the amp physically smaller/lighter. Generally speaking; Most torridal transformers are more costly and tend to be more widely used in hi-fi designs than guitar amps.

 

The bit about toroidal transformers was suggested by an amp maker specifically in regards to making a lighter amp. I figured he knew what he was talking about. I have not seen a Laney amp up close. If they are as heavy and bigger, I don't see why anybody, including Laney, would use them, especially if they cost more too.

 

By the way, is toroidal transformer the same as torridal? Just making sure.

 

Originally posted by Voodoo Amps As most who have studied acoustic theory/design will tell you, miking the speaker does not exclude the way the cabinet/enclosure itself sounds (not to mention the room) as the enclosure has a direct impact on the way the amp sounds (IE: effects the way the speaker sounds/breaths, frequency response, etc) so naturally those who are into tone will very much care what the enclosure sounds like.

 

Please see above (the unplugged electric guitar bit).

 

Originally posted by Voodoo Amps As with all things anything is possible. Making some thing fit into with confined dimensions while also having it sound good may very well be two totally different things.

 

Therein lies the challenge.

 

Originally posted by Voodoo Amps Another way to look at this is; You may want to get into building yourself an amp that meets your specified demands. If you are successful where others have not been then you will of course have a winner/money maker on your hands thus allowing you to sell those to others who are in turn looking for the exact same thing that you are.

 

I am not an entrepreneur. And I couldn't care less what kind of gear other people use. Yes, it would be nice to design an conceptually new amp and have people buy it (although I am pretty sure if it were successful it would be immediately copied by everybody and then you have to deal with competition - often lower priced)... But the only thing I'm relatively good at is writing songs. I can't make goods. My dad - quite a handy man himself - used to tell me that my hands grew out of my ass. That's why I am posing these questions (why isn't there such amp and won't somebody make it please) in hopes that some amp maker will get excited about it and make it happen.

[herobiscuit]

 

Originally posted by azzzy there are always those who say something is impossible.

 

 

[azzzy]

Originally posted by JamesPeters I think we'd ultimately all prefer amps to be as portable as possible and light. My (evidently belabored) point is that with what's available now, and what guitarists will accept under these circumstances, make it less feasible to have an amp of that kind in such a small/light format. Also, if it were possible most guitarists wouldn't consider buying it unless it were significantly cheaper just because it's lower powered; that also serves to make such a product infeasible.

 

Speaking of which, why are lower powered amps cheaper? Actually, I think I may have part of an answer - usually higher powered amps have more features, be it an extra channel, extra voicing, or an extra speaker. Why do manufacturers tend to add features to higher powered amps?

 

On the other hand, if the feature set is the same (for example Mesa F-series) and the only difference is the wattage, why the price difference?

 

Originally posted by JamesPeters And I certainly wouldn't mind being proven wrong. It's just that every small amp I've played (with a small enclosure) has sounded small.

 

Sorry to repeat myself here, but what if the enclosure was specifically designed to be miced? You don't think that would work from the sound stand point (as in after it's miced and has reached the audience) or from the marketing stand point?

[azzzy]

Originally posted by herobiscuit

 

Ever heard of an airplane? How about a helicopter? A space shuttle?

[2B]

Actually, I find it much easier to drag around a head like the SLO with a cab compared to a 212 combo.

Even my Matchless JJ-30 (112 combo) weights a ton.

IMO, the amps which have the best tone seems to always be on the heavier side.

Expensive trannies, great built construction etc do have a price. Weight.

 

I would rather lift a ton of gear, instead of using lightweight amps with whimpy tone.

[herobiscuit]

Originally posted by azzzy Ever heard of an airplane? How about a helicopter? A space shuttle?

 

My post was a bump for you.

Is in:

[herobiscuit]

 

Originally posted by azzzy I agree the Neo's sound different from conventional Celestions, but once again, they don't sound worse in my opinion. I like 'em. In fact they probably suited better for modern hi-gain than old school Celestions.

 

 

+1, the only draw back is the price:)

[JBecker]

Originally posted by azzzy I bet you're one of those guys who can tell by ear a humbucker in a Les Paul from a humbucker in a Strat, eh? I wasn't saying that what I get through small Fenders with a pedal is the same sound I get from my Dual Recto. But modern high-gain is not defined by a single amp. There are many amps that sound completely different and nevertheless equally represent modern high-gain. Please see my post above in response to James (the bit about isolation cabs and power attenuators). Dr. Z amps are nowhere near modern high-gain. Which is beside the point. Overbuilt isn't bad but is it necessary? It's like putting premium gas into a Geo. It won't hurt but it won't make any difference either. I am not saying the transformer size doesn't matter but I think that for a smaller wattage amp a smaller (not tiny - just smaller) transformer would be sufficient. Well, you seemed to have suggested that if I listened to the Alley Cat miked I might have had a different opinion of it. But the reason I didn't like it had nothing to do with the room or the enclosure. It was the lack of gain where it was advertised as a modern high-gain channel. If you have to differ to somebody else to rebuttal the point maybe you shouldn't mention the point at all. I don't know much about toroidal transformers either but I was told about them by another amp maker. Somebody who was making me a custom power amp. I wanted for him to make me a conventional model first to see if I would like it. I didn't and the toroidal version never happened.

 

Actually, 9 times out of 10 I can hear the difference between a humbucker in an LP versus a Strat, and I would say 99/100 I can tell the Strat from an LP with humbuckers if the pickups are stock and I am familiar with the amp being used.

 

Of course modern high gain isn't defined by one amp, however, what defines good modern high gain tone, while somewhat subjective, is for the most part a similar sound. Though we all like variations on the same tone, there are several "staple" amps that have certain "staple qualities" (tight low end, a fair amount of gain without losing too much clarity, etc) that are sought after. Producing these qualities in a small, light weight combo certainly isn't feasible (it would quite difficult to fit a full featured three channel amp built with quality components especially by a smaller, boutique style builder into the 25lbs 1x12 requirement) and may not even be possible (since the things that must be sacrificed-- smaller enclosure, less dense wood, smaller transformers, less headroom-- all are a part of what creates that "huge" modern sound)! That's what you refuse to believe, yet haven't tried. Fender makes the Champ and Princeton Reverb-- you can also get copies of them from Victoria-- that are approximate 25lbs or less. Yet these amps are not designed for modern high gain. Why? Because in this format, in that size, it is very difficult to emulate, if even possible at all, the huge sound that most people are seeking. However, this format is well served for many other guitar tones and hence, this amplifier still exists.

 

What most people want DOES matter, because no amp builder, big or small, is going to spend the time and money researching and designing an amp for which there is no market. A combo that is small and light and has a great high gain sound has a HUGE market-- except that market disappears when you add the fact that you need to mic the amp to make it sound decent. Most people who want small amps want them for practice or for apartments/dorms. The 30w, larger combo market is filled with musicians who don't mind mic'ing when they play out but also need something they can practice with without fighting the neighbors. Sometimes, at this power level, they are seeking to get more power tube distortion at a "more reasonable" (it's still louder than shit) volume and literally play loud enough they'd rarely have to be mic'd even at that wattage. When you get bigger, you're looking at people who either don't care about volume or weight when they're home, or they're playing with a band with a drummer 90% of the time and want something that can work in that context only, practice alone is really not that important. Sometimes, they get those amps because they sound just as good at low volumes because they're designed well (actually, both James and Trace make amps that are reported to sound quite good at low volumes despite being modern higher gain amps with quite a big power tube section).

 

Point is, VERY few people want an amp that only sounds good mic'd. If that's what you were seeking to find out, I guess you did. The second point is that making a fully featured modern high gain combo that weighs less than 25lbs is an incredibly difficult, and nearly impossible, task if you're not going to significantly sacrifice certain aspects of what "modern high gain" is objectively considered to need. The third is that I have no idea what the Alley Cat was branded as, and I was pretty much ignoring that part of your post because many of us have not liked amps simply because they don't have enough gain. I am surprised you didn't want to try it with a boost since you don't seem to be adverse to finding higher gain sounds that way, but to each his own. I am personally interested in the Alley Cat, but not for modern high gain tones.

[JBecker]

 

Originally posted by azzzy Speaking of which, why are lower powered amps cheaper? Actually, I think I may have part of an answer - usually higher powered amps have more features, be it an extra channel, extra voicing, or an extra speaker. Why do manufacturers tend to add features to higher powered amps? On the other hand, if the feature set is the same (for example Mesa F-series) and the only difference is the wattage, why the price difference? Sorry to repeat myself here, but what if the enclosure was specifically designed to be miced? You don't think that would work from the sound stand point (as in after it's miced and has reached the audience) or from the marketing stand point?

 

 

I'm not a builder, but from the marketing perspective as someone who reads quite a bit on this amp forum, I will say categorically NO. There are very low wattage amps (for power tube break up at reasonable volume, we're talking even as low as 1/2 w) that are marketed as recording amps to be used to get great tones at home when you mic it up to record. The market is pretty well saturated, doesn't sell all that well, and the amps are still generally judged on their unmic'd sound. Since getting a good mic'd sound is largely dependent on your skill in micing and recording an amp, it's fairly easy to see many inexperienced people being unhappy even with the mic'd sound and now their amp never sounds good. Beyond that, again, the segment of people looking for small combos strictly for use when micing who don't care at all about room sound is somewhat small, and also somewhat covered by the digital stuff, by DI boxes (wait, I can use my fully featured sounds amazing head with a small little box that costs 1/4 or less of the cost of a new amp to get that tone recorded? People do like that...) and various other techniques.

 

On the first point, again, I am not a builder, but a few things to consider-- extra features = extra space and extra cost. More power = more tubes and sockets and a few other components, more space, and larger transformers (which are heavier and more expensive). Those are just a few reasons I can think of off the top of my head.

[azzzy]

Originally posted by Cibyl Seriously, it just sounds like your whining, and not really listening to what James and Trace are saying. BTW, they are two successful amp builders so I wouldn't question much of what they say.

 

Whining? Really? Aren't you being a bit of a sheep then? I feel entitled to question whatever I want - nobody is infallible. I do not question James and Trace's success and experience (even though personally I haven't had a chance to try out their product) and I don't disagree with certain particulars. I also don't discard the possibility that I am wrong and the amp that I envision would sound like a piece of crap. However based on my personal experiences with small combos I don't believe we can tell for sure until we try. James and Trace being successful and all don't need to do something that is likely to be a flop, or a very small run at best. Why mess with success? But that doesn't mean that any independent idea should be discarded as whining. I don't even think what I'm suggesting is that revolutionary. I would be content if a Pro Jr. had a 12 inch Neo Vintage speaker.

 

Originally posted by Cibyl Why don't you just run a POD Pro direct for your gigs? It's obvious you don't want to deal with the hassle of hauling around a tube combo. There are a bunch of "amp-less" options to choose from nowadays,...or maybe try a Vetta II if you need an actual amp behind you.

 

POD has its own hassles actually. But that's beside the point. I like tubes. Real tubes. Not imitation. But while I'm prepared to haul around heavy tube gear for the sake of tone I don't see why I can't try to make it better by finding an amp that's lighter but still provides the tone I like.

[azzzy]

Originally posted by herobiscuit My post was a bump for you. Is in:

 

Sorry, I misunderstood your intent. Thanks for your support.

[telephant]

Ever played a Bogner Shiva combo? Those have nice cleans and a great high gain sound. Although Ive heard people say they dont have enough gain for metal, which IMO is {censored}ing ridiculous if you need more gain than that.

[JBecker]

Just FYI, James started his business building only 10w heads. I am not sure if he has moved into combos, but I know that he has built many 10w heads, then moved to having 50w models as well, eventually having 20w, 50w, and 100w options and then discontinuing the 20w head, so though his business experience hasn't been with small combos, it certainly started with low wattage heads and he has quite a bit of experience with what customers looking for fully featured lower volume/weight amps want.