Evolution of the tonal/midrange voicing in Mesa/Boogie amps- Mark1 to Roadster

[Zachman]

Here's my simple mesa ownership opinion.I have owned a Mark III blue and green stripe,a dual rec,and a stiletto duece.I've played the triple rec and an F-100.The difference to me between the mark series, mainly the III's versus the rec's is the tone has become muddier in the rec's,the old III's are notoriuous for an unforgiving clarity while applying the distortion and a very sweet warm clean,an almost sterile amp to a fault if that is possible,I hear people say that the sound from the III is an old sound,not modern.You can make any sound become a new sound if you give it your own twist.Alot of people say the triple rec is a brutal amp but compared to the old III's I find it a little on the timid side in comparison.I base all my opinions from a metal outlook.I like the rectifiers,they have their own distinct tone,they just don't provide that bite or the crispness of the mark series,mainly the III's.The green stripe I have now IMO has the tone that I hear in my head when I think of the heavy metal sound,plus the cleans are very nice which make it a sweet amp period.

 

^^^

 

WELL said.

[4nkam]

:mad: Ferkrissakes!

 

I already have on NUMEROUS occasions. Just gotta search.

 

And furthermore, you just really can't throw a blanket of an opinion over stuff and try to really use it as a basis for how something actually is. Someone might say their Recto is loose and rumbly while others might say it's tight, defined, and perfect. There could be many other aspects of the gear/signal that will GREATLY change the tone of an amp's sound and then get filtered through a person's brain, going through their own tastes/preferences, and then spewing out an opinion.

 

"It's so friggin thick, heavy, tight, and articulate"- stuff like that to describe an amp, is what I'm asking to be brought to this table.

 

What if a person has a bright guitar and a bright pickup? Or dark guitar and dark pickup? What if the speaker/cab has good or bad speakers?

 

 

What if someone else tries it with an entirely different setup? It's not gonna be the same. Will it have slightly similar results? Yeah but it won't be the same because the other gear is more than likely not the same.

The amp is very tight, but it doesn't have that big ringing out sound that just keeps going, it's too tight, compared to my Rectifier. The Rectifier has a very big, bellowing tone that booms right across the room, the bass overwhelms you and bowls you over, and has a buzzing top end grips you- very good for those single-fingered chords bashed out in Linkin Park songs."

 

Yup, perfect for loose rumbly tones huh? Again...an amp can be as good or bad as the user and gear is. I'm sure lots of great players can make poor amps sound decent while lots of not so great players can make a great amp sound rather poor.

 

Since the search function must not be working or since people never talk about rectos and other boogies (), here are my thoughts for you in one place:

 

Recto:

 

The tremoverb is a dual recto with 2 channels, 4 modes, tremolo and reverb. The tremolo and reverb are ok, pretty decent with cleans. Cleans are better than other rectos due to a few mods. Vintage high gain and modern high gain are great, heavy, thick, and defined when using EMGs or decent passive pickups. MAx out the gain and it's still tight and defined but has some of the recto buzz. Change guitars and you're gonna end up having to change your settings.

 

Racktifier is another great recto and has tons of gain on both channels. The orange has a very cool feel depending on the guitar, pickups, and power settings. It can go from spongy and soft to brittle and piercing. Both channels have plenty of punch and sound best around noon. There's little recto buzz in there since these were before numetal.

 

Studio and Quad are basically Mark IIC and III preamps. They have fender style cleans and nice mesa mark high gain tones. There's tons of gain, almost way too much and I rarely push mine past 4. An entirely different design than rectos but like the rectifiers, marks/studio/quad need to be played with for awhile until you really figure it out. The bass/punch is VERY strong, much more stronger than my rectifier and it can go from really tight to really loose depending on the settings and guitar.

 

 

Zachman has a great point up there too. Just play the amps and you will have all the info you need. There's only so much you can "learn" from reading and taking in people's opinions.

"This particular amp has a rather pronounced midrange, very wide, but it can be altered a lot with the 5-band EQ. Boosting the 750Hz slider tends to reduce the "crunchiness" even when the gain is turned very high. Cutting the 750Hz slider to the extreme, tends to make the tone very hollow and small, but reducing it about 3/4 can produce a very razor-sharp, chunking, sizzling tone, provided the bass & treble sliders are boosted at the same time.

[petejt]

I'll answer this part first.

 

 

 

Zachman has a great point up there too. Just play the amps and you will have all the info you need. There's only so much you can "learn" from reading and taking in people's opinions.

 

 

This isn't just for ME to learn, it's for EVERYONE to learn from.

 

I well know that there's a limit to learning from reading and other people's opinions. It's quite obvious, since I got publicly fed up with Ice_Shadows24 scalping my gear ideas from me, copying me, and blindly taking my advice as pure gospel, rather than going out and trying amplifiers for himself and making his own mind up.

 

Playing amps is not enough. Playing will just show to me what is great, and what isn't. There's lots of stuff lurking underneath, the "magic" that makes up part of what makes something great. And I want to know, and bring to other people's knowledge via this thread, what those things are.

[petejt]

the new rectifiers (the 3 channel ones) are muddy peaces of shit

 

Thank you from bringing forth your knowledge.

[Riff1970]

Let me try.

 

My Rectoverb combo has A LOT of mids. Way too much for my liking. I always have the MID knob at zero. I'm not sure how wide a frequency the MID knob affects but I put a Boss GE7 in the loop with 1.6k cut to zero and it sounds much better. That 1.6k fizz was unbearable to my ears.

 

In the bedroom I also like to boost 200 hz on the EQ. It gives it more balls, more fullness and makes the combo come a little closer to a 4X12 sound, but a soundguy at a gig immediately told me to cut my low mids as soon as I started sound checking. I guess the higher volume brought the lows out better. I dont know.

 

I never got to play the other models except fiddling in the music store which doesn't tell me a lot. I need a few hours at the house and a couple gigs to really tell me what an amp sounds like.

 

OK, I usually dont write this much. Thats enough.

[The Realm]

 

why is the 5-band graphic EQ NOT included on the Rectifier series amps?

 

 

Run a eq pedal (or any type) and hear for yourself.

 

Tried it, totally pointless -it always sounded better without it and that is to say I think DR sound like tubby fuzz balls

[Zachman]

MESA/Boogie Mark III

The Dot Series of the Mark III

 

The Mark I provided two very different and separate voices with its two inputs. Although MESA provided an A/B box to footswitch between them, the volume jump and the tweaking needed between each mode made this somewhat unpractical. The answer to this was the evolution of the Mark IIA, the first footswitchable amplifier with two distinct modes. Early Mark IIA's suffered from noisy reverb and an irritating popping when switching modes. The two modes were refined with the IIB, but the popping was still present, however the reverb was better. One should note that this popping was only audible when swithcing modes while the guitar was ringing out. if one uses the footswitch while the guitar is silent, there is no sound. As an aside, this must be a difficult problem, as the solution created other problems. In the Mark IIC/IIC+ switching from clean to lead was silent and instantaneous, but when switching in the other direction, there is an audible drop in volume, slight delay and then return to the previous level. In the Mark III Green dot, there is actually a transinet swell in the R1volume when swithcing from Lead mode.

 

The IIC followed with the majority of bugs worked out, further tone shaping with pull shift on the bass, and a better effects loop,and reverb levelsbut it was not until the IIC+ that the Lead mode was evolved to the point that it set the standard for what lead tone could be.

 

MESA however was not content to rest on their laurels and after only ~1500 Mark IIC+'s, they introduced the Mark III, the world's first tri-modal amplifier. As with all things MESA, this was a work in evolution that went through five folios or "stripes" until the final product was reached. The Mark III series represents the most extensive line of amplifier evolution and tweaking in the history of Mark amps. The five "stripes" represent the chronology of the evolution of the Mark III. Widely received, the option of three modes was openly accepted but with lofty expectations. When it was first brought out, several people complained that they wanted a bold R2 and the IIC+ lead sound (much debate has surrounded the R2 sound and its relation to R1 but we won't cover that here). The various "stripes" of the Mark III represent the attempts at this request.In reality MESA could have called them the Mark IIIA, IIIB, IIIC, IIID and IIIE.

 

Like the IIC+ with its famous plus, these stripes were located over the power cord with Mike B.'s initials below. They are merely a swipe with a Jiffy Marker of the appropriate color. The five stripes were as follows:

 

In order, the stripes were:

 

None or Black Stripe

Purple Stripe

Red Stripe

Blue Stripe

Green Stripe

 

As with all things MESA, what these various stages represent are a matter of opinion with respect of the sound character. Don't let anyone pass on a bunch of bull{censored} about one being better than the other. They represent snapshots in time of the development of an amplifier line. If the amplifier gets you the tone you want, the jiffy marker is nothing more than a mark of its vintage. Much anxiety is generated in the Mark III group by this extensive evolution, much because of misinformation about what these stripes represent.

 

#1 - No mark or a little dot. Only a few hundred then some balck marks or "+"'s .

 

- Lean and powerful amp with more output power than a IIC+

 

#2 - Purple: reshaping of R2

 

- R2 was shaped to be more "rounded" and less gain, with improved level

 

#3 - Red: R2 is like current Mark III

 

- R2 further developed and very hot. Lead mode is also tweaked to close in on the IIC+ sound

 

#4 - Blue: Reshaping of R1

 

- More aggressive preamp gain - reshaping of R1, Power section made akin to IIC+

 

#5 - Green/Simul-Class: Final R1 and Lead Channel reshaping

 

- Cleaner R1, Lead channel reshaping, and unlike other Simul amps, these Mark III's were wired in Pentode - NOT triode in the Class A sockets for more power. Power section is same as Blue otherwise.

 

So there you have it, the story of the dot series. More legend than reality, they are all great amps, just find the one that is right for you. I hope that you find this helpful.

[petejt]

Let me try. My Rectoverb combo has A LOT of mids. Way too much for my liking. I always have the MID knob at zero. I'm not sure how wide a frequency the MID knob affects but I put a Boss GE7 in the loop with 1.6k cut to zero and it sounds much better. That 1.6k fizz was unbearable to my ears. In the bedroom I also like to boost 200 hz on the EQ. It gives it more balls, more fullness and makes the combo come a little closer to a 4X12 sound, but a soundguy at a gig immediately told me to cut my low mids as soon as I started sound checking. I guess the higher volume brought the lows out better. I dont know. I never got to play the other models except fiddling in the music store which doesn't tell me a lot. I need a few hours at the house and a couple gigs to really tell me what an amp sounds like. OK, I usually dont write this much. Thats enough.

 

That was great, thank you!

[LnTh]

Look I don't wanna start shit but...

 

WHO DA FUCK CARES. You like it or you don't. Will it change your opinion about your mesa if you found out it was lowered mid range or whatever the fuckever ?

 

[petejt]

MESA/Boogie Mark III The Dot Series of the Mark III The Mark I provided two very different and separate voices with its two inputs. Although MESA provided an A/B box to footswitch between them, the volume jump and the tweaking needed between each mode made this somewhat unpractical. The answer to this was the evolution of the Mark IIA, the first footswitchable amplifier with two distinct modes. Early Mark IIA's suffered from noisy reverb and an irritating popping when switching modes. The two modes were refined with the IIB, but the popping was still present, however the reverb was better. One should note that this popping was only audible when swithcing modes while the guitar was ringing out. if one uses the footswitch while the guitar is silent, there is no sound. As an aside, this must be a difficult problem, as the solution created other problems. In the Mark IIC/IIC+ switching from clean to lead was silent and instantaneous, but when switching in the other direction, there is an audible drop in volume, slight delay and then return to the previous level. In the Mark III Green dot, there is actually a transinet swell in the R1volume when swithcing from Lead mode. The IIC followed with the majority of bugs worked out, further tone shaping with pull shift on the bass, and a better effects loop,and reverb levelsbut it was not until the IIC+ that the Lead mode was evolved to the point that it set the standard for what lead tone could be. MESA however was not content to rest on their laurels and after only ~1500 Mark IIC+'s, they introduced the Mark III, the world's first tri-modal amplifier. As with all things MESA, this was a work in evolution that went through five folios or "stripes" until the final product was reached. The Mark III series represents the most extensive line of amplifier evolution and tweaking in the history of Mark amps. The five "stripes" represent the chronology of the evolution of the Mark III. Widely received, the option of three modes was openly accepted but with lofty expectations. When it was first brought out, several people complained that they wanted a bold R2 and the IIC+ lead sound (much debate has surrounded the R2 sound and its relation to R1 but we won't cover that here). The various "stripes" of the Mark III represent the attempts at this request.In reality MESA could have called them the Mark IIIA, IIIB, IIIC, IIID and IIIE. Like the IIC+ with its famous plus, these stripes were located over the power cord with Mike B.'s initials below. They are merely a swipe with a Jiffy Marker of the appropriate color. The five stripes were as follows: In order, the stripes were: None or Black Stripe Purple Stripe Red Stripe Blue Stripe Green Stripe As with all things MESA, what these various stages represent are a matter of opinion with respect of the sound character. Don't let anyone pass on a bunch of bullshit about one being better than the other. They represent snapshots in time of the development of an amplifier line. If the amplifier gets you the tone you want, the jiffy marker is nothing more than a mark of its vintage. Much anxiety is generated in the Mark III group by this extensive evolution, much because of misinformation about what these stripes represent. #1 - No mark or a little dot. Only a few hundred then some balck marks or "+"'s . - Lean and powerful amp with more output power than a IIC+ #2 - Purple: reshaping of R2 - R2 was shaped to be more "rounded" and less gain, with improved level #3 - Red: R2 is like current Mark III - R2 further developed and very hot. Lead mode is also tweaked to close in on the IIC+ sound #4 - Blue: Reshaping of R1 - More aggressive preamp gain - reshaping of R1, Power section made akin to IIC+ #5 - Green/Simul-Class: Final R1 and Lead Channel reshaping - Cleaner R1, Lead channel reshaping, and unlike other Simul amps, these Mark III's were wired in Pentode - NOT triode in the Class A sockets for more power. Power section is same as Blue otherwise. So there you have it, the story of the dot series. More legend than reality, they are all great amps, just find the one that is right for you. I hope that you find this helpful.

 

Yes, I do find it helpful , and I hope others do too (remember that I made this thread to also be a source for all Mesa/Boogie users on HC). There are still plenty more things to discuss though, such as the processes of the tonal shaping and tweaking of channels, etc.

Thank you.

 

 

Just a few things- the way I see it, with the "stripe" models of the MarkIII, they were trying to improve the MarkIIC+.

Therefore, I find it quite confusing that you said the red stripe's "Lead mode is also tweaked to close in on the IIC+ sound".

 

The MarkIIC+ was the base amp circuit for the MarkIII, right?

 

Wouldn't the MarkIV just be the MarkIII Green Stripe but with options to be run in Triode as well as Pentode?

 

And HOW was the Green stripe's lead channel "re-shaped"? Did the mids go up? Down? Wider? Narrower? Higher range drive control? Higher gain? The "pull fat" lowered? The presence increased? What?

 

 

Saying "re-shaped", is like me saying I cooked a steak one way, then cooked it "another way". Quickly sauted in olive oil at 120 degrees Celcius, Fried, barbecued, roasted, grilled, spit-roasted, cooked with a durry lighter lol!

You know what I mean?

[TomCTC]

I find with my Recto, there is only one EQ setting that I enjoy for the dirty channel, and another seperate EQ setting for the clean (which I set for an overdriven clean controlled with the volume knob on my guitar). I like alot of midrange, and the settings for the dirty channel have just enough gain to differentiate between the two channels, yet still sound a bit thicker due to the mids coming all towards you when you switch. I also like to boost my amp slightly, just to give my pick attack a break sometimes.

 

I've owned an '06 Road King and my current '04 Dual Rectifier. The tone between the two is close enough that the downgrade didn't affect much, but I find that current Mesa/Boogie amps do sound generally the same. The older ones were definitely different, had a bit more preciseness to them in the sound and feel. I think the Stiletto is a good example of this; an EL-34 amp that still sounds like an American tone, whereas an older .50 Caliber+ or Mark III will give you a different vibe that ultimately sounds more British to my ears. It's just the Mesa sound now-a-days, either you like it or you don't. The only exception I would assume would be a Mark IV, but I have never played one so I couldn't say.

 

As stated, it'd be best if you go and play every amp you can, it's the only way you can formulate proper opinions about them. Text on a computer screen isn't as concrete as an E chord coming straight out of the amp in question.

[Nerine]

petejt:

 

Man, lighten up.

 

what you are doing is asking people whose opinions are biased and subjective to start with. There is no way that someone is going to hear something the same as someone else.

You are asking us to find a concrete answer to a subjective question, which is a bit silly, especially when you have been getting real pissed off about it earlier in the thread.

[OverDriven]

That's the point of this thread - for all the people that have owned or own, or at least have played one of these amps, to discuss the tonal differences between each, HOW they compare to each other, WHAT the actual midrange frequency voicing is of EACH particular Mesa/Boogie amplifier, HOW the midrange voicing has changed between each, what the Q values of the frequency bands in the 5-band EQ are, and to discuss the differences in the designs, etc. etc. etc. There are people out there that are assuming that the Mark series amps have less gain than the Rectifiers, so I'm also trying to help get it explained that the amount of gain has not really increased at all, but it's just that there are other characteristics that have changed, and I'm trying to find out HOW it has changed, and, also WHY it has changed. I strongly believe that not just I, but WE would get a much more informative set of answers if we draw on the expansive knowledge & experience of the people of Harmony Central Forums, instead of spending heaps of money chatting the ear off the salesman at Mesa/Boogie over the phone. And plus it will help everyone to understand and form a knowledge base for people who want to better understand Mesa/Boogie amplifiers. Honestly I feel furious right now

 

1) You're fucking weird.

 

2) www.grailtone.com

[Zachman]

Saying "re-shaped", is like me saying I cooked a steak one way, then cooked it "another way". Quickly sauted in olive oil at 120 degrees Celcius, Fried, barbecued, roasted, grilled, spit-roasted, cooked with a durry lighter lol! You know what I mean?

 

Speaking in terms like, " re-shaped", then giving a little description, as IS done here- "generally" can get the point across much more effectively, (at least as much as one can other than TRYING the amps for yourself and seeing how they vary) often times than going into a bunch of technical detail, that the tech-heads know is available to be found by looking up the schematics.

 

Not sure why you seem to be so aggressive, but it occurs to me that if you want others to help- providing YOU with answers, you ought to consider the fact that people like me, who are trying to help, don't need to- we choose to, but when those who are seeking help start acting like their entitled, it doesn't motivate me to continue choosing to participate in YOUR quest for info.

 

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewforum.php?f=3&sid=1cc38c2f2011d70b44f616a93f476b3c

[danjovi]

Look I don't wanna start shit but... WHO DA FUCK CARES. You like it or you don't. Will it change your opinion about your mesa if you found out it was lowered mid range or whatever the fuckever ?

 

+1

[boogieman_dan]

I'll add my 2 cents...

 

First off the Mark and Recto lines are COMPLETE opposites! The Mark series tone stack is pre-gain whereas the Rectifier's are post gain (Marshall, Soldano ,Peavey, nu-tique..etc). Most MK's have a 5 band graphic in post to make THE difference.

[Nerine]

yeah, y'know, i think this is like the worst thread evar!!!1!!

[TomCTC]

yeah, y'know, i think this is like the worst thread evar!!!1!!

 

[petejt]

There's been some good responses here recently, which I'll reply to soon.

 

 

But, I will answer to why I was aggressive earlier in this thread.

 

 

I was aggressive because I felt that some people were being deliberately vague, and/or unhelpful on purpose, when I know for a fact that they are very experienced and can share A LOT of their good knowledge. I really hate ambiguity.

Providing a small contribution is a lot more effort than just giving up and saying "but, oh, the amps are so different to each other, it's not worth discussing". This forum is made for people around the world to discuss all aspects of guitar amplifiers, so for people stating that this thread is beyond the subject of the forum, is complete bollocks. That's why I got pissed off.

 

Sometimes I feel like people deliberately hide things from me, just to annoy me.

[petejt]

 

I'll add my 2 cents... First off the Mark and Recto lines are COMPLETE opposites! The Mark series tone stack is pre-gain whereas the Rectifier's are post gain (Marshall, Soldano ,Peavey, nu-tique..etc). Most MK's have a 5 band graphic in post to make THE difference.

 

 

 

If the Recto amps were modified to have the tone stack pre-gain, how would that affect the tone?

 

 

And why does the Mark series amps (at least the later ones) have two "gain" controls in the lead channel (Lead Gain & Lead Drive) and the Recto amps just have a Gain control?

[petejt]

As stated, it'd be best if you go and play every amp you can, it's the only way you can formulate proper opinions about them. Text on a computer screen isn't as concrete as an E chord coming straight out of the amp in question.

 

I know that.

 

It's just that it's still cool to talk about, and some knowledge can be gained. Someone can say "set the amp and it will be teh buttseks! br00tuhlz rooooooooooarrrr!!" ", so I go and try those settings out on an amp. It might inspire the same reaction in me, the complete opposite, or somewhere in between. I have to hear it for myself to form my own opinion, rather than take the info as gospel, but still, it's cool to share that knowledge and then test it out for real, otherwise I might not even think of using those settings or listen to the amp in that way.

[BOOGIE666]

I like mesa boogie amps and all, and I find their history interesting. But this thread is {censored}ing stupid:thu:

[Ultron]

The OP reminds me of that guy last year who used to post questions upon questions in a thread. I think his name was Walter####sumthing....can't recall. Remember that guy?

[Zachman]

If the Recto amps were modified to have the tone stack pre-gain, how would that affect the tone? And why does the Mark series amps (at least the later ones) have two "gain" controls in the lead channel ( Lead Gain & Lead Drive ) and the Recto amps just have a Gain control?

 

Add a EQ to the front end, and you'll see (plug your guitar into an EQ and out of the EQ to the input of the amp)

 

No... They don't... Here- see for yourself:

 

[Seano Porno]

 

I like these particular Boogie tones: http://www.netmusicians.org/files/14-whitesnake_Mark_III.mp3 http://www.netmusicians.org/files/92-01%20Zach%20movie%20weirdness%20legato.mp3

 

 

YEEAAHH! a bit of the ol' Snake! Mr Sykes was a MKIII user yes? The WS clips were a bit more gain-y than I'd usually play with. Anyone know anything about the collusium heads? Were they something ludicrous like 300w? Does that headroom give you that clean bottom that I loved with the Diezel Herbert? I'm convinced that was due to the huge headroom of that amp!