Evolution of the tonal/midrange voicing in Mesa/Boogie amps- Mark1 to Roadster

[petejt]

I'd like to discuss the tonal/midrange voicing of Mesa/Boogie's amplifiers, in particular the Mark series amps and the Rectifier series amps.

 

How do you reckon the midrange voicing has evolved? It's obviously become lower throughout the years.

 

 

 

 

 

[Badside]

Mark: pre-gain tone stack = mega mid machine. Add EQ at the end of the chain to mimic what a tone stack would do on a typical amp (that is, cut mids post distortion, since a tone stack cuts mids unless you set it B-0, M-10, T-0)

 

Rectifier: post-gain tone stack. Adding an EQ would only allow you to cut too much mids

 

They're too completely different animals.

 

As for the range, frequency, number of tone controls/EQ sliders... they are simply what Randall and Doug thought were the best for the job.

[petejt]

Anyone else have an idea also?

 

 

Thanks Hardtailed for replying.

[petejt]

bump

[Blues=]

Mark: pre-gain tone stack = mega mid machine. Add EQ at the end of the chain to mimic what a tone stack would do on a typical amp (that is, cut mids post distortion, since a tone stack cuts mids unless you set it B-0, M-10, T-0) Rectifier: post-gain tone stack. Adding an EQ would only allow you to cut too much mids They're too completely different animals. As for the range, frequency, number of tone controls/EQ sliders... they are simply what Randall and Doug thought were the best for the job.

 

 

Nice info. You spelled that out well, even "I" got it.

 

ROB

[petejt]

anymore input?

[petejt]

anyone got an oscilloscope handy? lol

[petejt]

[4nkam]

Get a calling card and call up Mesa Boogie

 

To be totally fair though, you would have to compare the Mark I through Mark IV and separately the Dual, Triple, Single, etc Rectos cuz they're way too different in design.

[TheAmazingBlob]

Yeah... that would take a while...

[petejt]

Get a calling card and call up Mesa Boogie To be totally fair though, you would have to compare the Mark I through Mark IV and separately the Dual, Triple, Single, etc Rectos cuz they're way too different in design.

 

 

That's the point of this thread- for all the people that have owned or own, or at least have played one of these amps, to discuss the tonal differences between each, HOW they compare to each other, WHAT the actual midrange frequency voicing is of EACH particular Mesa/Boogie amplifier, HOW the midrange voicing has changed between each, what the Q values of the frequency bands in the 5-band EQ are, and to discuss the differences in the designs, etc. etc. etc.

 

 

 

 

There are people out there that are assuming that the Mark series amps have less gain than the Rectifiers, so I'm also trying to help get it explained that the amount of gain has not really increased at all, but it's just that there are other characteristics that have changed, and I'm trying to find out HOW it has changed, and, also WHY it has changed.

 

 

I strongly believe that not just I, but WE would get a much more informative set of answers if we draw on the expansive knowledge & experience of the people of Harmony Central Forums, instead of spending heaps of money chatting the ear off the salesman at Mesa/Boogie over the phone. And plus it will help everyone to understand and form a knowledge base for people who want to better understand Mesa/Boogie amplifiers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly I feel furious right now

[petejt]

{censored} I was pissed off that day

[4nkam]

There's plenty of info on here and various other boards. It might not be in one nice neat spot but it's out there. I don't think anyone knows the specifics of the 5 band EQ though. You might ask boogiebabies on the boogieboard. if anyone knows, it's probably him.

 

Your best bet for info on the mark series is probably the "boogie files" website.

 

I just don't think you're gonna find the super extensive depth of info on all this that you're looking for. Most people are pretty familiar enough with the Marks and Rectos to get by and give a good opinion on them. Whether they do that fairly or not is totally dependent on their individual taste and preferences though. Both are great amps, both can sound great and both can sound very poor.

 

It just seems that you might be in the minority of people looking for some real exact info because most of the time people know enough about each amp and know that they like or dislike it. Some people swear by one or the other, some people like both. I think it's one of those things where for most people, it's enough to just play the amp, feel it, hear it, and they can decide that yeah they like it or they don't. The actual circuit design causing the reasoning behind those opinions doesn't seem to be a major concern most of the time.

[TheAmazingBlob]

Dude, relax!

 

Not everyone has owned every single Boogie amp and thoroughly tested each one with an oscilliscope just so they can tell you exactly what you want. Jeez.

[BATSBREW]

i've owned a boogie Mark2B since 1981.

 

i always loved that it was mid heavy.....

 

it does not sound modern now...

but it did then.

 

boils down to a simple issue of what you like.

 

me, i love that the mids really cut thru in a live situation...

i've played it against all amps, and it cuts thru a live mix like no other amp i've played.

 

that said, it does have the 5 band eq on it, and for recording, as the years have gone by, i've resorted to using more and more mid cut, as the trends demand certain tones....

 

but the cool thing is, whenever i want something that really cuts, i've got it.

 

if i want something with huge mid scoop, i just drop that 750hz slider.

 

but more than the eq aspect of the tone stack versus the 5 band EQ, it's the gain structure.

 

i play a 6l6 model.

 

i have el84 adapters i sometimes use in the boogie.

 

boy, it feels completely different!

and that's cool....

 

but it's all about the history of the mark series...

 

the new ones to me, the series past the mark series, sound a bit fuzzy to me.

 

mine is close enough to the beginning, that i still consider mine a hot rodded fender......albiet, mine's got cascading gain stages......

 

and as time went by, they got more complex with their cascading gains, and all of this plays into the sound.

 

is it better? worse?

doesn't matter, some like vanilla, some like chocolate.

 

i can say, that i really dig the sound of the mark IV series.

 

and i don't like the rectifiers.

or more than the sound, i don't like the FEEL of the rectifiers.

 

i'm a more vintage-y kind of guy.

 

but there's some awesome music out there, that i like, recorded with the rectifiers, so that said, i guess i like the sound of them on recording....

just never liked the way they feel.

 

people are always looking for something different.

 

if you stand in one spot long enough, they'll all come back around to the same spot your standing on.

 

it's all good, truth be told, everyone should own one model of every amp.

 

perfect world!

[petejt]

^^ Cool, thanks!!!!!!

[petejt]

Dude, relax! Not everyone has owned every single Boogie amp and thoroughly tested each one with an oscilliscope just so they can tell you exactly what you want. Jeez.

 

Of course not everyone has owned every single Boogie amp! I don't expect everyone to.

 

All I'm askin' is for every Boogie owner to talk about how their amp sounds, and how it compares to others that they have some experience with.

 

Over time, all the accumulated knowledge will show a fair comparison between each amp, and the changes etc.

[YogurtKing]

At that point, why not start comparing Mesas to other brands?

[Big Hair]

I have owned a Road King, Dual recto, Roadster and Stiletto.

 

All of them have the same vibe but there is definitely a slight variation between them. You are possibly right about the bottom end being more prominent than in early amps - but even the 92 recto had a distinct same lower mid tone my brand new roadster.

 

I've never even played a mk series amp so couldnt comment on those.

[petejt]

I have owned a Road King, Dual recto, Roadster and Stiletto. All of them have the same vibe but there is definitely a slight variation between them. You are possibly right about the bottom end being more prominent than in early amps - but even the 92 recto had a distinct same lower mid tone my brand new roadster. I've never even played a mk series amp so couldnt comment on those.

 

No worries mate, you put some effort into it, I'm grateful.

[petejt]

...

 

What does your avatar show? It shows that you have a Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier, a Mesa/Boogie Studio Preamp, and a Mesa/Boogie Quad Preamp.

 

Why not describe how each sounds and feels, and how they compare to each other?

 

It only takes a few minutes.

 

 

"It's so friggin thick, heavy, tight, and articulate"- stuff like that to describe an amp, is what I'm asking to be brought to this table. No need for an oscilloscope and capacitor values.

A little bit of technical data though, if known, would be nice too.

Having everyone bring what they know to the one spot, would help everyone learn more and understand what they know, and help others who want to know or are inexperienced.

 

 

For example,

"This particular amp has a rather pronounced midrange, very wide, but it can be altered a lot with the 5-band EQ. Boosting the 750Hz slider tends to reduce the "crunchiness" even when the gain is turned very high. Cutting the 750Hz slider to the extreme, tends to make the tone very hollow and small, but reducing it about 3/4 can produce a very razor-sharp, chunking, sizzling tone, provided the bass & treble sliders are boosted at the same time. The amp is very tight, but it doesn't have that big ringing out sound that just keeps going, it's too tight, compared to my Rectifier. The Rectifier has a very big, bellowing tone that booms right across the room, the bass overwhelms you and bowls you over, and has a buzzing top end grips you- very good for those single-fingered chords bashed out in Linkin Park songs."

 

 

How fucken hard is it to say that? :mad: Ferkrissakes!

[KsE fan]

the new rectifiers (the 3 channel ones) are muddy peaces of shit

[Zachman]

Honestly I feel furious right now

 

IMO, it's much more than JUST a "midrange" factor that separate the different models. The ENTIRE voicing, gain structure and circuit design is unique to each model.

 

As far as the Q point goes, it's likely to be different throughout different points of the circuits, and vary per model. Seems to me, to be a much more technical issue, than what is likely to best be discussed here, and WAY more appropriate to discuss w/ Mike B, at Boogie, IF tech info is what you're after.

 

IMO, unless one has an Electronics Engineering background, coupled with a musical background ALL the tech info in the world won't answer anything in the way of helping to further one's understanding of the amp's tone, in context with it being right for the job or not. It seems to me the BEST way to discover IF an amp is "Right" for an individual, is NOT by discerning it's technical specs, but rather using one's ears and touch to see if it's right for them. On top of all of that the tone certainly doesn't stop there. In the end, Guitar wood, design, fit and finish, Pickups, bridge, nut and fret material, speaker cab design, speaker selection, tube type, cable selection, and other factors such as signal routing via input, Loop, Stereo, W/D, W/D/W, Switching system, Series/parallel or a combo of ALL of the above-work toward the FINAL tone result.

 

I, after having played Boogies since 1980, have grown to discover that I prefer the MK III (Simul-Class) Voice to ALL of the others. I feel the MK IV is probably the most usefully designed for live tonal flexibility, but wish the voice were left as the MKIII with the circuit adjustability of the MK III. Oh ya, I have played them ALL, extensively, (Head and combo versions) at one point or another, including their preamps (Studio, Quad, Triaxis) in combination with ALL of their power amps.

 

I find that the MK III and the MK IV have the most usable tones in them, which span a variety of musical genres from Fenderesque to High Gain brutality to smoothly voiced singing characteristics, depending on the factors that I listed above with of course the added component of pilot proficiency, to get a WHOLE lot of mileage covered... While other models, such as the Rectifier line is much more genre specific in their (Boogie's) design approach.

 

I think one of the GREAT things about Mesa Engineering is that they have a LOT to offer in just about every area, that one can find something useful with several of their designs. They were after all one of, if not the first, boutique amp company.

 

I like these particular Boogie tones:

 

http://www.netmusicians.org/files/14-whitesnake_Mark_III.mp3

 

http://www.netmusicians.org/files/92-01%20Zach%20movie%20weirdness%20legato.mp3

[Zachman]

:mad: Ferkrissakes!

 

ALL of the descriptives in the world, will not take the place of personally deciding on whether or not a particular voice will suite an individual's needs, just as knowing the tech specs on paper, such as the Q Point of various stages of a circuit's voltage, will NOT answer whether or not a particular make/Model will fit the bill.

 

In other words, test out the amps and decide which ones YOU prefer, based on their features and their voices/TONE. I say this because like so many others, who have heard reviews, which vary according to the user (usually NOT me) rendering their opinion useless, unless I personally know the reviewer, SO I check them ALL out for myself and see what they do. It works for me.

[powerlord]

Here's my simple mesa ownership opinion.I have owned a Mark III blue and green stripe,a dual rec,and a stiletto duece.I've played the triple rec and an F-100.The difference to me between the mark series, mainly the III's versus the rec's is the tone has become muddier in the rec's,the old III's are notoriuous for an unforgiving clarity while applying the distortion and a very sweet warm clean,an almost sterile amp to a fault if that is possible,I hear people say that the sound from the III is an old sound,not modern.You can make any sound become a new sound if you give it your own twist.Alot of people say the triple rec is a brutal amp but compared to the old III's I find it a little on the timid side in comparison.I base all my opinions from a metal outlook.I like the rectifiers,they have their own distinct tone,they just don't provide that bite or the crispness of the mark series,mainly the III's.The green stripe I have now IMO has the tone that I hear in my head when I think of the heavy metal sound,plus the cleans are very nice which make it a sweet amp period.