Too much emphasis on production?

[King_For_A_Day]

Ever since Dark Side of the Moon it seems that a lot more emphasis is placed on the production and sound quality of a song. While of course, I want recorded music to have the best quality possible, it seems like there are many people today intent on polishing a turd.

 

Even here, in this great Forum, I'm often surprised by all the comments about the Production and Engineering of a song. PLEASE don't misunderstand me, I am not knocking ANYONE who is gracious enough to take the time to listen to and comment on another songwriter's music; but I am interested in the fact that there isn't more discussion about the song itself, rather than the volume of the second vocal harmony or something.

 

Again, please don't kick me out, brothers and sisters! I'm not dissin' you! I'm just sayin' that I won't stop listening to the Beatles just because the bass is muddy or something; and I never listened to the Backstreet Boys or whatever just 'cause you can hear what's his name's beard grow!

 

Of course, the ideal is a fantastic recording of a terrific performance of a great song; but isn't a great performance more important than the sound quality? Would anyone buy me reading the phone book if it was the best-sounding audio product in the world?

[Dean Roddey]

Obviously the song is the thing in the end. But whether a song is 'good' or not is a matter of opinion. And the thing is, very few of the songs posted on these fora are really great songs, mostly because if anyone was writing truely great songs, he wouldn't be posting them here. We are a self-selecting group of people (The Wannabes :-) So mostly the songs are not so great up to OK and occasionally pretty dang good.

 

So if someone is asking for comments, and you feel bad just letting their post sit there, but you don't really think that the song is going to set the world on fire, you can still comment about the production and provide suggestions.

 

For me personally, I'm kind of the love child of Janis Joplin and Alan Turing. Well OK, Alan Turing was gay so it doesn't quite work, but anway... I love the art and the science of this thing of ours. I want to master both sides. I've only completed one full tune in like 10'ish months since I got started, because I want to have the stuff both be good and sound good. I've been playing on and off since I was 13, so I was way further ahead on that front than on the production front. So I've put a lot more time into learning the production side of things.

[captain average]

it took a long time for me to develop my ears to the point that i could enjoy an old track with a lot of hiss and pops or a badly mixed live tape. i liked clarity, the feeling that i'm in the room with the musician. i had trouble separating sounds, and a bad recording just made everything into monochromatic mud.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

 

Exactly

[Lee Knight]

I agree 100% It's one of the reasons that a lot of new songs... even and maybe especially on the radio or MTV, etc. are just showcases for production ideas. An aspiring songwriter gets his new recording setup and sets out to learn the craft. But which craft?

 

"Hey everybody. Here's my new tune called My Baby Rocks Like a Level 5. Comments welcome."

 

I think the drum fills are in a weird place. Performance

 

The reverb is to washed out on the lead vocal. Mixing

 

The lead guitar is to thin and harsh. Engineering.

 

 

 

How about...

 

Level 5 is a hurricane, right? I think the Scorpions have one like that. Unintended plagiarism

 

Have you thought of tightening up your rhyme pattern? Rhyme scheme

 

Your lyrics aren't focused as much as they could be. I like the bit about the waves crashing and the wind. Can you expand those ideas into a bridge? Lyric theme

 

Your melody needs to have more of an arc that develops over the course of the 8 bar verse. Theory (melody)

 

Try repeating the melody like you do, but just in the 2nd half of verse, use the VII chord instead of the I and the IV in place of the V with it setting up a prechorus tension by holding that last V chord an extra 2/4 bar. Theory (harmony)

 

Have you tried exploring the double meaning possibilities of a level 5 and sexual orgasm or are you avoiding it because it's a cliche? Lyric devices

 

 

Songwriting!!!

[eeglug]

I'm sometimes one of the guilty parties when it comes to production comments. I've been trying to hold back on that lately.

 

It can, however, be difficult to separate out the 'pure songwriting' issues from issues dealing with arrangement and production. I think both arrangement and production have great impact on how we perceive music and in some cases a subtle shift can make or break whether we give a song a thumbs up or not. I think of any number of cds I have where famous artists include rough demos or alternate takes of a song as a bonus...in many cases it's hard to hear and enjoy the song in any way except in the final production.

 

I agree with Dean that often songs presented here are good. Often songs posted here are not a style I'm really into or familiar with...this makes it a little harder to comment on the songwriting, for me anyway. I also think that it's not that difficult to reach a certain level of competency in songwriting - in the end we are just copying schematics laid out by songwriters that have come before us. Many songs here appear to have all the ingredients and then it's just a matter of having a good arrangement and production to really bring it out.

[Lee Knight]

 

I also think that it's not that difficult to reach a certain level of competency in songwriting - in the end we are just copying schematics laid out by songwriters that have come before us.

 

 

Which breeds mediocity in my opinion. Most of the songs I hear fall so far short on good even, that when an artist comes along with some chops and has obviously studied the masters, he shines.

 

To jump into engineering and arrangement evaluation too soon risks letting the song lie... 'cause it's "good enough", or because "I worked so hard at the vocal effect".

 

I don't mean to be a downer but I do see this adversly effecting the actual song. Maybe I'm too old fashioned, but then again, maybe that's not such a bad thing.

[blue2blue]

I stand guilty as (indirectly) charged on the commenting-on-production-in-the-songwriting-forum front.

 

I succumb to old habit of commenting on overall impact -- which I really don't think should be the focus in most of our critiques in the SW forum.

 

Still, as others have suggested, there is, to a certain, limited extent, a certain genre-idiom-independent aspect to basic production values, and that makes it easier for someone who isn't familiar with a given idiom to make, at least, some kind of a hopefully helpful, intelligent comment.

[Dean Roddey]

For me, criticizing someone's songwriting is like talking bad about his kids. Even if it's true, I'm not getting paid to hurt people's feelings so I'd rather avoid it, and my blunt comment might be the thing that makes someone stop doing it who might have gone on to become very good.

 

Production is considered more of a craft than something that springs from one's loins and is an externalized version of the most sensitive part of that person's being. So if I have nothing good to say about that part of it, I'll just keep quiet. But most people are happy to get production suggestions.

[Lee Knight]

Dean Roddey - "For me, criticizing someone's songwriting is like talking bad about his kids."

 

We look at it different. To me... songwriting is not a gift from the muse, but rather something I have to work very hard at. Analyzing those better than me and trying to incorporate some of their technique.

 

So when someone says, "What do you think", I assume they want to get better. I'm certainly not putting down the work in question, only pointing out shortcomings as I see it. They may disagree and that's dandy by me.

 

I've posted lyrics that I thought were tight... only to have someone not see my majesty. Then I realize they've just helped me immensely. I went back in and further refined my work thanks to the honest appraisal.

 

If someone wants a stroke instead of a sincere offer of help, they might want to reconsider asking for opinions.

[sabriel9v]

I think there is too much emphasis on production. And we've allowed this unnecessary emphasis to infiltrate the minds of everyone...not just the fans, but musicians, producers, label employees and affiliates, everyone. There's nothing wrong with having superior audio quality, but the song should shine and come first. I can't tell you how many producers I've run into who just can't "feel" a band or artist because the sound quality is not top notch. And they admit it right off the bat. They'll say the sound quality is terrible and their attention span falls drastically from there. And then mainstream fans can be the worst, often thinking the artist sucks just because their demo wasn't made on Pro Tools and in a professional studio. Many new artists just aren't diamonds in the rough, much polishing and pampering has gone into their products.

[Johnny-Boy]

Probably production depends on the genre to a degree. However, I think most good songs can shine through with a simple piano/vocal or guitar/vocal arrangement.

 

I refuse to spend weeks fine-tuning a big production of my songs. I

[Lee Knight]

...and my real strength is production.

 

So as Johnny Boy points out (and others), production and arranging and sound quality are important... but not while you're writing. For me, it's too easy to stop short before you've really written your best when you're hearing a good production. And it's too distracting to the writing process as well.

 

Clearly, a lot of you disagree. That's cool... but I'll stick to my method of refining the writing, then... work up a production with elaborate arrangement and sound trickery.

[Dean Roddey]

 

I've posted lyrics that I thought were tight... only to have someone not see my majesty. Then I realize they've just helped me immensely. I went back in and further refined my work thanks to the honest appraisal.

 

 

There are plenty of great songs whose lyrics would be completely trite pap if they weren't presented in a certain way and with a certain level of sincerity. They could well have done you a disservice as well. If you said what you really mean, and you sing it like it you really mean it, that's what counts. You are complaining about too much emphasis on production, but writing clever lyrics instead of writing lyrics from your heart and singing them from your gut is just another version of the same thing.

[Lee Knight]

I'm not complaining about too much production. I'm worried that it will take precedence over a great song. I have zero issues with heavy production. Dark Side of the Moon was sited in the original post. All of those tunes would slay you and me if they were sung by the writers with an acoustic guitar around a beach fire. The production only furthers their impact. Fantastic I say. But Money... as a SONG. It's freakin' great. Brian Wilson's God Only Knows? Over the top arrangments that are something of a legend in their own right, but the song stripped down. No worries there.

 

Can we say the same thing about the latest Justin Timerlake tune? It is all production and no song. First things first I say.

[Dean Roddey]

Obviously stuff that is all flash and no substance takes a distant second place to stuff with substance, in my book. But I do agree with some other comments that song writing is something that is much 'easier' to pick up than production, and that many good songs don't get much attention because the production is so lacking.

 

One of my favorite songs here lately is "Devil in the Details" by "Bright Eyes", which is very primitively produced but whihc has excellent writing and delivery. But if it had better production, it would be even better. So I think it's appropriate to give both equal weight in how we spend our learning time. If I do manage to get to the point where I'm writing truely great songs, I want to be at the point where I can showcase them in a way that is equal to the content.

[Lee Knight]

Excellent point.

[sabriel9v]

 

I'm not complaining about too much production. I'm worried that it will take precedence over a great song. I have zero issues with heavy production. Dark Side of the Moon was sited in the original post. All of those tunes would slay you and me if they were sung by the writers with an acoustic guitar around a beach fire. The production only furthers their impact. Fantastic I say. But Money... as a SONG. It's freakin' great. Brian Wilson's God Only Knows? Over the top arrangments that are something of a legend in their own right, but the song stripped down. No worries there. Can we say the same thing about the latest Justin Timerlake tune? It is all production and no song. First things first I say.

 

 

Couldnt have said it better myself. Personally I think all "legendary" and truly great songs should have the capacity to be played in a more stripped down context and still pack the same emotional punch. That is unless the song is based on complex layers. Like Nights in White Satin by the Moody Blues.

[333maxwell]

 

I dunno.. look at an album like Sgt Peppers ........ producing may of reached adulthood way before Dark Side of the Moon...

[sabriel9v]

 

Obviously stuff that is all flash and no substance takes a distant second place to stuff with substance, in my book. But I do agree with some other comments that song writing is something that is much 'easier' to pick up than production, and that many good songs don't get much attention because the production is so lacking. One of my favorite songs here lately is "Devil in the Details" by "Bright Eyes", which is very primitively produced but whihc has excellent writing and delivery. But if it had better production, it would be even better. So I think it's appropriate to give both equal weight in how we spend our learning time. If I do manage to get to the point where I'm writing truely great songs, I want to be at the point where I can showcase them in a way that is equal to the content.

 

 

Now that I take a second glimpse at your post, I think you're absolutely correct. The part where you say you want to be at the point where you can showcase your songs in a way that is equal to the content. I couldn't agree more. Once a song is completed it takes its own identity and in some aspects becomes something that you can't control. I'll listen to an album like Exile on Main St. by the Rolling Stones and it sounds like it was recorded in some sleazy and nasty basement bar, but the album is great. Or Joshua Tree by U2...all I can picture are vast open spaces when hearing that album. On Downward Spiral I get a more claustrophobic feel. The production value can greatly add to the content of the songs, but I don't think it should overpower it. Take the bands Flyleaf and Taking Back Sunday for example. I listen to their stuff and I feel like someone is trying to polish a turd. It just doesnt happen.

[Eclepto Funk]

so long as the production doesn't truly suck to the point that it's just a mess (don't nobody point no fingers at me, fellas) i try to ignore it and concentrate on the song itself ... the melody and lyrics being what a song is to me

 

i'm not into criticizing the performance or the production, mostly because a given performance produced in a given way is just an interpretation of a song to me, not the song itself

 

it's true that most of the comments i get on here are performance and production related (yeah, i know i am not a good guitar player; yeah, i know i can't sing very well .. yeah ... my set up sucks and i am a newbie at recording ... i know all that)

 

it would be nice to hear more about the song itself (i.e. the melody and the lyrics), but hey, at least people are willing to take the time to comment

 

basically i want to know, did the song hit you emotionally? did you like the melody? were the lyrics interesting?

 

basically, did you like it? did it move you in some way?

 

that's really my goal as a song writer. if the song didn't move you, then i want to know that

[thepalpitations]

 

The part where you say you want to be at the point where you can showcase your songs in a way that is equal to the content. I couldn't agree more.

 

 

I agree, and I think production is far deeper than "good" versus "bad." Dance music showcasing snappy effects and a processed, diva singer may benefit from incredibly polished production. For us, a big part of the appeal of our live show is those rough edges - not due to lack of rehearsal or skill but simply because we're playing guitars fast and loose and making things up as we go . . . and the audience enjoys and feeds off that energy.

 

So when we recorded our debut album, we specifically worked with the recording engineer to find a sound that was clean and professional but not overly pristine - we didn't want to lose that rock & roll "edge."

[rsadasiv]

I am still trying to put together a coherent manifesto on "Music criticism - by musicians, for musicians", but in the meantime, I'll just repost some old stuff.

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1614396

Re: Here is my song that lost to tamoore's song in the Songwriting Contest

 

I did listen to all the finalists and I was impressed. They were all excellent songs, so people seem to have voted (accurately, to my ears) based on production values.

 

Which gets to the crux of the problem - you have an excellent song, a nice arrangement and good performances, but by modern standards the production stinks.

 

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1623858

Production Values

 

"I

[Eclepto Funk]

"I

[King_For_A_Day]

I've been reading everyone's excellent comments, and I'd like to add that I think that the reason for the demo is also important.

 

The demos that I record are meant as song auditions or guides for my band at the time (currently just me.) As such, it isn't critical to nail the "hihat volume" or whatever. These demos are done just to see how the new song will sound and give it a good arrangement. The clinkers and hurried production only gave the band easy ways to surpass the demo and add something. The downside, of course, is that the short production time and early-take mistakes make these demos difficult to play for anyone else.

 

That's a long way from the finished productions that a lot of people try to create. I think nowadays it's easier to get excellent production so people rightly expect good to great quality, and I love to get the best sound I can; but for what I do, the song and the arrangement are much more important. The creative people I like to work with can already see the statue in the block of stone.