is it me or do the best songwriters aren't super proficient on lead guitar

[grantsabbath]

Man, Willie has some really gorgeous licks in that one. Love it. Great post.

[blue2blue]

See, see!

 

[rsadasiv]

As far as the OP - I don't think it is an either/or situation. There are plenty of bad lead players who are also bad songwriters (in addition to all of the positive counter-examples cited above).

 

As far as Willie Nelson - I love Willie and I think he's a great player. I was listening to one of his standards albums the other day, and he does a really nice job with the leads - he doesn't stray too far from the melody line in most cases, but his tone and phrasing are lovely and his fills are very tasteful and well placed.

[Stackabones]

 

Dayum!

[Mcfontio]

A lot of good ones have already been mentioned. Maybe some of the great songwriters just chose to not put in leads? I would think they could write some great melodies if they could write a great song.

 

Good ol' opeth is still killer. Saw them for this tour a few months ago and they're as good as they've ever been, maybe better.

 

[YOUTUBE]FBS7ejV9qEk[/YOUTUBE]

[rsadasiv]

I'm a violation of this rule--love Willie, crummy lead player.

 

I only just realized that the crummy lead player referred to in the second clause is Chicken Monkey, not Willie Nelson.

 

[rockinrobby]

" is it me or do the best songwriters aren't super proficient on lead guitar ( 1 2)

Still.ill "

 

That's not true, I can play lead guitar? Oh wait :-( I guess I can't write good songs then. But on the bright side? I'm no shreder? Weeeeee! I'm a song writer afterall!! In fact, I'm going to beat my left hand with a hammer right after I post this just to ensure that I can keep writting cool tunes!

[blue2blue]

I only just realized that the crummy lead player referred to in the second clause is Chicken Monkey, not Willie Nelson.

 

OMG -- you're right. That's why he was talking about all the takes he's deleted.

 

Oi veh!

 

 

No doubt he was probably shaking his head in mute bewilderment at my response to that...

 

I hate to cop your iconic meta-comment but... me too...

 

[rsadasiv]

OMG -- you're right. That's why he was talking about all the takes he's deleted. Oi veh ! No doubt he was probably shaking his head in mute bewilderment at my response to that... I hate to cop your iconic meta-comment but... me too ...

 

It's actually a very tough text to parse. I'm thinking of using this as a co-reference test case in my day job - although I somewhat despair of software ever getting that one right.

[Chicken Monkey]

OMG -- you're right. That's why he was talking about all the takes he's deleted. Oi veh ! No doubt he was probably shaking his head in mute bewilderment at my response to that... I hate to cop your iconic meta-comment but... me too ...

 

I wasn't commenting on Willie Nelson, I was fishing for compliments!

 

:poke:

 

Although Willie can't sweep pick for {censored}.

[LeonardScaper]

I think you guys should still throw down.

 

Already sold some tickets.

[Metamensch]

Has anybody mentioned Steve Lukather yet?!

 

In my opinion Toto had a major influence on "modern" songwriting......and Steve knows how to play solos without ruining the song`s feeling......

[gismo recording]

 

How about David Gilmour and Steven Wilson?

 

 

Can't comment on Steven Wilson as I'm not that familiar with his work.

But I wouldn't call David Gilmour a great songwriter. The vast majority of Pink Floyds songs (at least from Meddle onward) were written by Roger Waters. And on the two post-Waters albums, Gilmour had to enlist other people to write lyrics for him.

[eeglug]

 

But I wouldn't call David Gilmour a great songwriter. The vast majority of Pink Floyds songs (at least from Meddle onward) were written by Roger Waters. And on the two post-Waters albums, Gilmour had to enlist other people to write lyrics for him.

 

 

You're really distorting things here. Since when is writing the music not part of songwriting? You might've had a case about Waters being sole author if you were talking about The Final Cut but prior to that Gilmour had a big hand in the writing musically. Like it or not, they were a team.

 

(BTW, PF were good songwriters - sometimes very good - and Gilmour is ok as a guitarist but overrated nowadays IMO.)

[MDR]

Bruce Cockburn

[rhino55]

 

EDIT: You know, I have to stop here and back up and put in a word for a guy who may not have been pegged as the next Bob Dylan but nonetheless wrote some monster hits and more than a couple pretty good songs: Jimi Hendrix .

 

 

I've been reading this thread waiting.

 

I guess an EDIT on the 11th post isnt so bad :poke:

[New Trail]

To the OP: The answer to your question depends on your definition of two things in your post (1) What do you consider 'best songs' and (2) what do you call 'super proficient on lead guitar'? In other words what do you call a great song? Is 'Sweet Baby James' by James Taylor a great song to you? Is 'Blackbird' by The Beatles a great song? Both of those were written by very good guitarists, but would you consider James Taylor or Paul McCartney 'super proficient' guitarists? I like a lot of the things Dickie Betts wrote with the Allman Brothers Band. Is he 'super proficient on lead guitar' or do you reserve that category for guys like John Petrucci or Yngwie Malmsteen? Lots of questions...

[rhino55]

All the ones mentioned above and these three

Alison Krauss - not guitar but I think violin counts - it is lead work

Vince Gill - I dont really care for him but he can play his ass off

Brad Paisley

[blue2blue]

 

I've been reading this thread waiting. I guess an EDIT on the 11th post isnt so bad :poke:

Well, I have to say, first, that Jimi is, give or take my favorite rock guitarist (I'm hugely partial to Rory Gallagher on that count, too; I don't think Rory has the place in history that Jimi so well deserves, but the man could really play), and some of Jimi's songs are personal favorites -- which is why I came back around to him -- but while I personally love "The Wind Cries Mary" and "Castles Made of Sand," and others, I've never thought of lyrics as his strongest point. So, at first, I wasn't posting him more because, while he's monumental to me, I wasn't so sure others would necessarily rank him as a 'great' songwriter.

 

But as things opened up, I thought it was churlish not to list a guy who had, after all, written songs that really moved people, a lot of people... even if not many others could do justice to those songs. (That's sort of one of my criteria of a great song -- is it still a great song when it's done by other people?)

 

 

I'm gonna piss off someone by adding another great late in the day but Peter Green was, at his peak, one of the very best blues rock players in a then-crowded field and, wrote some of their hits as well as some pretty nice songs on his solo albums.

[Stackabones]

If you mention Peter Green (fantastic), you should also mention his replacement Lindsey Buckingham.

[blue2blue]

No one replaces Peter Green.

 

And, I have to admit that, while I don't have the same sort of antipathy to the downstream Fleetwood Mac as, oh, say, my abject horror at what became of Jefferson Airplane's lineage, I have to say that, for me, the FM that counts is still PG's.*

 

But Lindsay is certainly an accomplished songwriter and guitarist. Although I often sort of think of him as a songwriter/control freak who seemingly forced himself to become a good lead player so he wouldn't have to hand that duty over to someone else. His fabled obsessiveness in the studio lends to that impression.

 

 

*And you'd almost have to say that would be FM3, give or take, in the sense that PG's FM was one (and I'd classify the period with remaining guitarists, Jeremy Spencer and Danny Kirwan as still part of FM1); when Bob Welch steps in, the direction shifts; and then when the little known (one of my pals, a big FM fan, found their debut album right after the announcement and became one of FM3's earliest fans, even, in a sense, before their first album came out.

 

BTW, I got to play through one of John McVie's little guitar amps (a Princeton? I wasn't amp-aware back then, not sure what McVie used it for, maybe he's a frustrated guitarist like so many bass players ) at the UCLA Law Talent Show, c. 1975.

 

Their then tour/crew manager (they weren't huge again yet), Peter Paterno, had been law school prez and somehow got involved when one of my buddies decided to put together a new version of the jug band he (a non-musician) had put together for a pep rally at our old high school (I didn't play yet, either, but I owned a washboard, so I got to be in it), but they needed some ringers, or just wanted to pay back pals, more likely, so me and a few other non-UCLA folks ended up in the All New Institution of Sound (my pal was big on acronyms back in the day; there really was an Institution of Sound, they were from Riverside or San Berdoo, had a minor hit, and their bass player went out, completely coincidentally, with a girl in my Spanish class; I knew you'd be fascinated).

 

By the time the show went on, we had 14 members, including two tap dancers with golden hammer-and-sickle appliques on their red cheer-leader type sweaters (they'd both been cheerleaders, in fact), and a fire-eater (not a ringer, he was a second year student and lit a fat book of torts on fire with a huge blast of flame from his mouth, a nice effect).

 

Paterno, our lead guitarist, went on to become FM's manager, and then manager for a whole lot of big names and then, when Disney decided to start Hollywood Records, they made Paterno first president and gave him a half billion dollar budget. One of the first things he did was sign Queen for a then-record sum -- unfortunately just before word started getting out that Freddie was very ill and probably headed toward the last round up. Many analysts suggested that the library alone would prove to be highly profitable, and I believe that's been the case, but it put Paterno on the wrong foot with the suits at Disney and his tenure there was not super long but I believe he went back to managing artists and ended up with a very successful career in the long run.

[rhino55]

 

even if not many others could do justice to those songs. (That's sort of one of my criteria of a great song -- is it still a great song when it's done by other people?)

 

 

Thats an interesting benchmark.

 

cue slight thread hijack.

 

Joe Cocker and Leon Russell doing beatles songs comes to mind as an example that actually added something new to the songs. I can think of cool covers I've heard of people doing Hendrix tunes but never one that took it some place like the previous example. Even SRV payed tribute to a couple but didnt take them in a new direction.

 

/end thread hijack

[rhino55]

 

*PG's FM was one (and I'd classify the period with remaining guitarists, Jeremy Spencer and Danny Kirwan as still part of FM1);

 

 

 

Great 2 dics set that does a good job capturing this era is Peter Green's Fleetwood Mac Live at the BBC

 

http://www.keenzo.com/showproduct.asp?M=UNIVERSAL_MUSIC_AND_VIDEO_6076811012&ID=1640409

[MDR]

 

Peter Green was, at his peak, one of the very best blues rock players in a then-crowded field and, wrote some of their hits as well as some pretty nice songs on his solo albums.

 

 

A huge PG fan here. Some of his best guitar work is on John Mayall's "Hard Road", before he left the Bluesbreakers to form FM.

[samtrips]

I think by now we've proved pretty conclusively that songwriting and proficiency on lead guitar are not mutually exclusive - though they're obviously not always necessary.

 

I'd probably take a Young/Green/Robertson type songwriting guitarist over most solely lead guitarists (flash ones like Malmsteen or Vai or whatever) anyway, because they know the value of economy, being writers. They do what works for the song.

 

Roger McGuinn - wrote some pretty good songs, great guitar player. Stephen Stills before about 1975, Mick Jones of The Clash, Lou Reed is pretty bitchin' when he's in the mood, George Harrison (and probably McCartney as well) and the mighty Curtis Mayfield are all excellent (if perhaps sometimes understated) at providing leads when required, and have written lots of great songs. John Martyn. Steve Marriott. Richard Thompson. Robert Johnson. M. Ward. All some of my favourite guitar players and songwriters.

 

Ry Cooder was a good shout, although perhaps he was known as an interpreter primarily? I seem to remember him doing a lot of traditional stuff on the records of his I have, early 70s mainly. But I did really like a couple of his more recent ones.

 

And as for Hendrix, well, man, he had it all. Classics both uptempo and down, fairly straight nestling against full-blown weirdness.