is it me or do the best songwriters aren't super proficient on lead guitar

[blue2blue]

EDIT: I listened to "Icky Thump" and "Ball and Biscuit" and it's safe to say I'm not a fan.

 

 

Now -- it's probably worth addressing Isaac Brock (Modest Mouse) here -- since I love much of what he and MM have done but I would have to say that my appreciation for Brock's guitar playing is that it is a primitive emotional expressionism that transcends conventional aesthetics. (Much as others may well feel about Jack White, on at least some levels.) I like it. I think it's expressive. I think it was often the right thing at the the right time in the right place in their songs.

 

But I wouldn't really put him out there as a conventionally good guitarist.

 

[EDIT: I take that back! I put a slug of MM on and listened again... Brock is actually quite competent when he wants to be -- and I think what he plays really works for the tunes, a mostly fairly fresh set of riffs and hooky repetitions, which, in that sense, makes him 'perfect' in context.]

 

Perhaps, like some others above, whose conventional skills might easily be called into question, Brock (and, for some, White) manages to express some fundamental character of his work through that playing. A sort of fullness of self-realization on guitar.

 

[EDIT: And on consideration, I think that's precisely what is going on in both cases, and others, probably, too. I may not like White's playing, it may strike me as clumsy and hard to listen to -- but for others it apparently is a near-perfect expression of a DGAF genuineness of attitude (I'll give it that ).]

 

[EDIT: Damn, I love Modest Mouse. I kind of burned myself out on them because there's so little else vaguely current that really gets there for me. So I haven't heard them in a while. Yep. I guess we all have our weaknesses.]

 

[Yet another EDIT: But I can tell you that MM does occasionally indulge in some headscratchingly clumsy stuff, too. Red Hand Case is just amazingly... well... clumsy as hell. I mean, I guess it must be on purpose... but... ]

[Matximus]

Robby Krieger!!! Doh. That's right. Peace Frog rocks

And Blue check out Doorbell. That's my favorite.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT3w6-cCn10

White Stripes - some of their stuff can be acuired taste. But that song is the joint.

[BetaCarotene]

 

 

i cant get enough of Brocks playing i think you are defanitly right it is some very emotional playing may come off as clumsy in some songs but i defiantly think that is intentional

[blue2blue]

I'd never really listened to them to consciously evaluate the guitar playing but I'd often thought it was effective and often hooky. (Of course, he uses edit/loop based repetition in the studio quite a bit.) But I think a real head-scratcher or two had, like "Red Hand Case" stuck in my memory... when I paid attention to the guitar in a number of tracks, I heard a lot more stuff that sounded entirely solidly well performed -- and a fair amount of it had a distinct, pretty unique sound. I've been listening to more contemporary music lately for various reasons and coming back to Modest Mouse after a time away from them made them seem kind of fresh and new again. I guess they just represent an attitude and spirit that used to be a lot more prevalent, a sense of themselves, and a willingness to go against the pop grain. There are a whole lot of bands that sound like each other but not too many that sound like Modest Mouse.

 

And I suspect it's a parallel sense of self in Jack White that leads Matximus and others to embrace his music.

[blue2blue]

Robby Krieger!!! Doh. That's right. Peace Frog rocks And Blue check out Doorbell. That's my favorite. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT3w6-cCn10 White Stripes - some of their stuff can be acuired taste. But that song is the joint.

I actually did, but then realized there was no guitar (at least through the first half) and so moved on to one of the one's you'd cited for guitar playing. I couldn't really make out the lyrics but the music didn't grab me the first time around. I thought the production treatment was... interesting. I'll try to listen again, maybe dig up the lyrics.

 

Mostly, I listened to "Icky Thump" and "Ball and Biscuit." "Icky Thump" I wouldn't have hated -- except for that horribly annoying keyboard part. I guess we're supposed to ask WTF? But... WTF? The riff was OK. Can't remember if there was any lead.

 

But "Ball and Biscuit," I'm sorry. I don't want to suggest that my guitar aesthetic is in any way preferable to anyone else's -- but, dude, I really thought that sucked badly. Sorry, but it's true. I could not help but feel they were bad licks, clumsily played. I mean, it's so blatant, that I kind of assume that's the point. But you know, irony only goes so far.

 

 

You know, the whole irony angle is so problematic in an aesthetic discussion... I'd much rather argue about someone like Eric Clapton, who some people still actually take seriously as a guitarist. Now that's weird.

 

Ooh ooh! Now that reminds me... nobody mentioned George Thoroughgood yet!

 

:D

[Stackabones]

To get what Jack White is doing, go back and listen to Son House and then filter it through Detroit garage rock. He knows his blues & city history quite well. If you have the time or inclination, check out the 2005 interview with Charlie Rose. Here's the second part that addresses influences. It's in four parts and may be more than you wish to undertake, but he's a fascinating and articulate artist. Or just watch "It Might Get Loud."

Blue Orchid is a killer riff and sound.

He also made a rather nice country album with

.

[easilyspooked]

wicked late to the party, but...

 

here's an interesting piece of willie nelson lead, out of his element a bit and way down in the mix, playing with The Supersuckers doing Bloody Mary Morning, on the album version, at first i hated this lead, thought it felt sloppy and undeveloped under the fast beats, but over time i've grown to truly love it, possibly one of my favorite solos just for the way it feels in my brain.

 

here's a live version, which has some of the same off-time feeling, but clearly willie has adapted his style and learned a bit o punk!

 

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

 

how does this fit into What makes a good Lead Player? man can play a fitting solo in music that is a stylistic break, that's pretty cool.

 

also, from way back, 1952 Vincent Black Lighting is an amazing tune...

 

EDIT: can't play lead, can hack out a song.

[rhino55]

He also made a rather nice country album with Loretta Lynn .

I never really started to get him till I heard this record. After hearing Van Lear Rose, I made myself spend more time with the White Stripes and now have a healthy respect for them. Though for two piece guitar rock, I'd rather the Black Keys

[Matximus]

I actually did, but then realized there was no guitar (at least through the first half) and so moved on to one of the one's you'd cited for guitar playing. I couldn't really make out the lyrics but the music didn't grab me the first time around. I thought the production treatment was... interesting. I'll try to listen again, maybe dig up the lyrics. Mostly, I listened to "Icky Thump" and "Ball and Biscuit." "Icky Thump" I wouldn't have hated -- except for that horribly annoying keyboard part. I guess we're supposed to ask WTF? But... WTF? The riff was OK. Can't remember if there was any lead. But "Ball and Biscuit," I'm sorry. I don't want to suggest that my guitar aesthetic is in any way preferable to anyone else's -- but, dude, I really thought that sucked badly. Sorry, but it's true. I could not help but feel they were bad licks, clumsily played. I mean, it's so blatant , that I kind of assume that's the point. But you know, irony only goes so far. You know, the whole irony angle is so problematic in an aesthetic discussion... I'd much rather argue about someone like Eric Clapton, who some people still actually take seriously as a guitarist. Now that's weird. Ooh ooh! Now that reminds me... nobody mentioned George Thoroughgood yet! :D

Well - that was a perfectly reasoned critique. I can't argue with any of it... The Stripes can be an acquired taste. Took me a while to get into them. Maybe I've simply drunk the cool aid... And I was suggesting Doorbell for the songwriting. I just love that tune...

[Matximus]

And Thoroghgood!!! Right on!!! That's a great one. He's a bad mother hopper...

[Stackabones]

I never really started to get him till I heard this record. After hearing Van Lear Rose, I made myself spend more time with the White Stripes and now have a healthy respect for them. Though for two piece guitar rock, I'd rather the Black Keys

Since the White Stripes, more and more folks accept and seek out two-piece guitar rock. It's definitely not as obscure as it once was. I recall how hard it was to find a bass player when I was garage rocking out. Had I only known that it was cool to go without!

[MDR]

And Thoroghgood!!! Right on!!! That's a great one. He's a bad mother hopper...

 

 

I didn't know that GT wrote many songs. Great player, for sure.

 

A couple of slide players/writers:

Lowell George of Little Feat

Ellen McIlwaine (first woman on the thread!)

[Oswlek]

Robert Cray is also a fine guitarist who wrote some good songs.

[BetaCarotene]

I'd never really listened to them to consciously evaluate the guitar playing but I'd often thought it was effective and often hooky. (Of course, he uses edit/loop based repetition in the studio quite a bit.) But I think a real head-scratcher or two had, like "Red Hand Case" stuck in my memory... when I paid attention to the guitar in a number of tracks, I heard a lot more stuff that sounded entirely solidly well performed -- and a fair amount of it had a distinct, pretty unique sound. I've been listening to more contemporary music lately for various reasons and coming back to Modest Mouse after a time away from them made them seem kind of fresh and new again. I guess they just represent an attitude and spirit that used to be a lot more prevalent, a sense of themselves , and a willingness to go against the pop grain. There are a whole lot of bands that sound like each other but not too many that sound like Modest Mouse. And I suspect it's a parallel sense of self in Jack White that leads Matximus and others to embrace his music.

 

very well put i can defanitly agree with you. i also find my self goign into heavy modest mouse phases for the simple reason that theirs really not much like them always great to listen to and some great live shows:thu:

[blue2blue]

I didn't know that GT wrote many songs. Great player, for sure. A couple of slide players/writers: Lowell George of Little Feat Ellen McIlwaine (first woman on the thread!)

 

I was kidding.

 

 

Thorogood's okay. Competent enough. But there are so many fine slide players out there who can play circles around him. I mean, Bonnie Raitt was better last time I checked. (It's been a while. I saw her in '73 or so I think when she was first rolling out. At the Troubadour in LA. But she could play up a storm back then.)

 

But there are just so many good players out there it's always driven me nuts that so many mainstream listeners think he's some kind of slide guitar god. It's like the Clapton thing. Clapton's so far down the list of good rock and blues players. He was a contender in the 60s, but by the mid-70s when I saw him, he barely played; most of the lead work at the concert I saw (Forum, LA) was handled by 'second' guitarist George Terry, standing mostly in the shadows toward the back of the stage while Clapton postured up front. I walked in a fan; that's not how I walked out.

[blue2blue]

Since the White Stripes, more and more folks accept and seek out two-piece guitar rock. It's definitely not as obscure as it once was. I recall how hard it was to find a bass player when I was garage rocking out. Had I only known that it was cool to go without!

 

Hmm... I guess I'd been thinking it was the truly great duo, House of Freaks.

 

Now there was a twosome: the great Johnny Hott on drums and the late Bryan Harvey on guitar. It may be sad to remember (Harvey and his family were killed in a horrible crime several years ago), but they were truly a great band.

[blue2blue]

I've got another: a really solid writer and a legendary player: Clarence "Gatemouth" Brown.

 

And he was a fine fiddler, too, when you could get him to pick it up.

 

I saw him four times, I think, and the man could really play. Of course, he's often cited by other guitarists, including, somewhat oddly maybe, since they were such entirely different style guitarists, Frank Zappa.

[blue2blue]

 

Well - that was a perfectly reasoned critique. I can't argue with any of it... The Stripes can be an acquired taste. Took me a while to get into them. Maybe I've simply drunk the cool aid... And I was suggesting Doorbell for the songwriting. I just love that tune...

I like some aspects of them. It's just they usually manage to work something in that I can't hack.

 

I don't know if

is the "Van Lear Rose" discussed above, but I have to say, it does not do much for me -- although the Loretta Lynn/Jack White vid I thought had some fine, sad singing by Loretta and I thought White did well enough at strumming his way through -- although the mix seemed clumsy in the way that White's guitar is allowed to overpower Lynn.

[blue2blue]

See, now, as long as I'm on a roll...

 

One of the reasons I'm not really comfortable with threads that end up being 'favorite artists' threads (like this) is that I have quite pointed views on what I, subjectively, consider good and what I consider bad. And it's very difficult for me to bite my tongue.

 

Of course, I'll be among the first to state that musical appreciation is totally subjective and, while we can erect aesthetic or technical performance criteria, there is no such thing as objectively good or bad music.

 

But I consider that a license to hold and express a subjective opinion, no matter how pointed. And that, I'm afraid, can sometimes cause strained feelings -- or the exaggerated overuse of smilies trying to mediate those potential strains.

[AwayEam]

And that , I'm afraid, can sometimes cause strained feelings -- or the exaggerated overuse of smilies trying to mediate those potential strains.

HEY BRO2BRO

That's only because you're wrong.

:freak:

[blue2blue]

[Stratman Tigers]

When I was learning to play guitar, I was all about soloing and technique and tremolo picking and all that cool stuff. Once I learned it, it was pretty lame when I wasn't around in a band or didn't have band practice. One can only bend through the pentatonic or major scale so many times. So I began writing my own songs. The last couple years I've really been focused on songwriting. Sure, in my jam band we all improv around and solo's abound, but in my own time, I feel really satisfied when I've finished writing a song I really like.