Members jnurp Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 nobody WANTS illegal immigrants or is encouraging that, some of us are saying that we understand why they are doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Curtis.Fagan Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 I think the Netherlands and Sweden are great examples of "stand alone" countries that won't let anyone in. They're brutal on immigration laws. They even defer their immigrated refugees to their neighbouring countries ha ha haha! I do believe that immigration is an important part of our culture in north America, but I question how illegals are allowed in and get comp'd medical aide etc. Thuis said, some of the opinions expressed in the thread are obviously underthought, knee jerk responses of "the took are jerrrrbz" kind of crap. This is a mutlifaceted issue. I'm glad we're not like the netherlands which has a weird, fascist, "only european, white and only if you speak the language fluently, have family here and intend to mate with one of our own" kind of mentality. Our countries, (USA and Canada,) we're populated by immigrants very early on, and this is a continuing trend. This does not preclude new Americans/Canadians from going through the process. Illegals need to go through it like anyone else and our governments might need to tighten the belt and restrictions a bit especially when it's costing the tax payer his hard earned dollars. Bottom line, I think there is waaaay too much grey to insist that it's black and white. This issue has been raging for over 100 years. Hopefully the border issues will be tightened, and it'll be harder for illegals to get in freely as they have been in recent years. -Curtis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KCTigerChief Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 nobody WANTS illegal immigrants or is encouraging that, some of us are saying that we understand why they are doing it.Dude, I understand why they're doing it too. That doesn't make them any less of a criminal, and that doesn't make them any less of a burden on our system though. They ARE criminals, and they ARE leeching of the system until they are legal resident and contributing to the tax system.That is what we are trying to say. No one said they can't understand why they do it...That doesn't even equate to an argument, imo... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fresh_cream Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Now, I'm aware that having illegal immigrants using the system without paying into it does drive up cost, but do you have any numbers to back up that it's a substantial reason for high health care and car insurance rates? As far as I'm aware, the main reasons health care costs as much as it does are malpractice suits, lobbyists and equipment cost and maintenance. I could be wrong there. And car insurance rates are largely dependent on where you live, in which case, sure, the illegal immigrant population has an immediate affect. I don't have any solid numbers myself, but here's a scenario that I can't imagine is too uncommon. A friend of the family (true story bro) who happens to be an illegal immigrant from Guatemala, is currently hospitalized, dying of cancer. He's been in and out for a good two months or so and will be for maybe a couple more. He's not paying a cent. He never will. Years ago He also had eye surgery for a reported cost of $30,000 which he did not pay. Who's paying for all of that? It's free for Him, but of course it's not actually FREE. It costs a hell of a lot of money. How many times do we hear of American citizens not getting treatment for cancer or what have you and dying as a result, because they couldn't bear the cost? Track back about one and a half years ago...My little sister fainted for some reason or another and was taken to the hospital. The doctor did {censored} all except for tell her, "take it easy." The bill was about $2500, which we are still paying off. We don't have health insurance (can't afford it) nor do we qualify for any government assistance. So on one hand you have one party incurring large medical costs while not paying a dime, and on the other you have another getting stuck with a seemingly disproportionately large bill which they're gonna make sure as hell we pay. I think pretty much anybody can connect the dots and see where a large portion of the cost of healthcare (amongst other things) comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Cohn Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 I think the Netherlands and Sweden are great examples of "stand alone" countries that won't let anyone in. They're brutal on immigration laws. They even defer their immigrated refugees to their neighbouring countries ha ha haha! -Curtis I cannot speak for netherlands, but Sweden is letting immigrants in at alarming rates. Middle eastern, mostly. I dont know where you got that?And the only reason I care/know is because I listen to it/about it almost everyday. My girlfriends mother is a Swedish native, moved here in her 20's and all she does is talk about the issues with sweden. Even worse, the Middle Easterners get free/prorated housing. Again, I dont know about the Netherlands, but I believe what is told to me as fact, as she knows a hell of a lot more about that country than I do, that Sweden is definitely NOT turning away immigrants.By the way, I love you, The End.Yours always,Emelianenk:cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RamoRenDez Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 I don't have any solid numbers myself, but here's a scenario that I can't imagine is too uncommon.A friend of the family (true story bro) who happens to be an illegal immigrant from Guatemala, is currently hospitalized, dying of cancer. He's been in and out for a good two months or so and will be for maybe a couple more. He's not paying a cent. He never will. Years ago He also had eye surgery for a reported cost of $30,000 which he did not pay. Who's paying for all of that? It's free for Him, but of course it's not actually FREE. It costs a hell of a lot of money. How many times do we hear of American citizens not getting treatment for cancer or what have you and dying as a result, because they couldn't bear the cost? Track back about one and a half years ago...My little sister fainted for some reason or another and was taken to the hospital. The doctor did {censored} all except for tell her, "take it easy." The bill was about $2500, which we are still paying off. We don't have health insurance (can't afford it) nor do we qualify for any government assistance.So on one hand you have one party incurring large medical costs while not paying a dime, and on the other you have another getting stuck with a seemingly disproportionately large bill which they're gonna make sure as hell we pay. I think pretty much anybody can connect the dots and see where a large portion of the cost of healthcare (amongst other things) comes from. Again, I'm not making any claims, and some numbers have been provided. I gave my observation of what I believe drives health care costs, and I didn't discount illegal immigrants abusing the system - I just said that I didn't believe it was a main reason for costs being exorbitantly high. I completely agree that it's an issue, and we should have tighter control of the border. I was simply stating that it's not a black and white issue, and not everyone that comes to the states is looking to abuse the system. Sorry to hear about the friend and medical bills associated with your sis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jimlp Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 In the span of problems facing the United States, illegal immigration has been and always will be a blip on the radar compared to all the other {censored} we have on our plate (not to mix metaphors) Tell that to California Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Cohn Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 So, say I lose my job, and live in the ghetto or any kind of poverty stricken area, and I decide to hold a 7-11 up for food. It's illegal, of course, but who can blame me, right? I'm just trying to get by. Or, and old grandma walks by with an ice cream, so I decide to power bomb her and steal it. Who can blame me? I need to eat and thrive too! Grandma, give me that mo{censored}ing ice cream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chrisjd Posted July 31, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 So, say I lose my job, and live in the ghetto or any kind of poverty stricken area, and I decide to hold a 7-11 up for food. It's illegal, of course, but who can blame me, right? I'm just trying to get by. Or, and old grandma walks by with an ice cream, so I decide to power bomb her and steal it. Who can blame me? I need to eat and thrive too! Grandma, give me that mo{censored}ing ice cream. LOL, that is basically what some of these fools are saying. If I get layed off, I might go break into someones house and steal everything they have. Sure it will ruin them, but I can't be blamed, afterall, I need to pay my bills too, right!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fresh_cream Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Again, I'm not making any claims, and some numbers have been provided. I gave my observation of what I believe drives health care costs, and I didn't discount illegal immigrants abusing the system - I just said that I didn't believe it was a main reason for costs being exorbitantly high.I completely agree that it's an issue, and we should have tighter control of the border. I was simply stating that it's not a black and white issue, and not everyone that comes to the states is looking to abuse the system.Sorry to hear about the friend and medical bills associated with your sis. For sure. Some of the nicest and definitely most hardworking people I know are illegal. If I was the "immigration czar" I would have a hard time sending them back. They're good people. It's definitely not black and white and it's definitely a {censored}storm. It's a struggle. both side's interests are somewhat mutually exclusive and both have a hell of a good reason for pursuing said interest. Heaven help us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mcr23 Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 We should make a fast track for US citizenship for Mexicans who join the Armed Forces and go pwn the Arabs for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dolf Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Tell that to CaliforniaI'd rather tell it to Ms. Bundy there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tommy Van Dyke Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 We should make a fast track for US citizenship for Mexicans who join the Armed Forces and go pwn the Arabs for us +1I love innovative ideas like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dolf Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 +1 I love innovative ideas like this Honestly, that idea really doesn't suck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeathMonkey Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Maybe, but I believe that it's really more about no politician wanting to commit career suicide tackling such a sensitive issue. Can you imagine the {censored}storm/rioting/horror that would happen if a politician were to come out and publicly shut down illegal immigration? Mother of god, it'd be horrendous. No one's going to try and tackle that. You know, the whole problem starts right here. There are a record number of PACs in DC now, over 4000 IIRC. And without corporate and PAC dollars, people don't get elected. So when the hotel, agriculture and construction lobby tell Joe Representative that they are pulling the 150k in reelection funds if he votes to change anything about immigration law, he shuts the {censored} up. Insurance companies (which, last time I checked, did NOT check for citizenship) are spending 1.4 MILLION dollars a day to kill health care reform. Government contractors spend millions to candidates on all sides to ensure that they get a place at the table. It's all about access, and $$$ buys you access. Check those donation tracker websites, and see that most companies donate to both sides. Not always in equal amounts, depending on who they want to win, but both leading candidates usually get at least something. Our economy as it currently runs depends on an unequal playing field. Unreasonable profit margins can only be achieved by having the edge that things like cheap labor in and from Mexico brings. Part of the whole rush to "open China" isn't to make money off the Chinese, per se (Chinese trade restrictions ensure we won't), but to add capital to offset the imbalance that our system requires. There are two ways to keep a pool full - make it a closed system and circulate the water, or open both ends and add as much water as you remove. But the way our corporate structure is - as we've seen by the number of companions failing with not nearly enough assets to cover their debt and investment load - it's like keeping a hundred pools full, but they each have to go in a choreographed dance. The interest on the pension fund goes to amortize the debt from expansion that offsets the blah blah blah, but you get the idea. My point on this - and this is not an in depth delineation of business money flow, just a blather to illustrate the theory - is that with these corporate structures being so linked and dependent on each other, it is cheaper and more efficient to buy off politicians than to restructure. A key cog in many of these businesses on some level - whether it is specific to, say, strawberry growers, or peripheral to a conglomerate - is labor. And this means they have a vested interest in both keeping undocumented workers available, AND in keeping Mexico poor. And so we see the fundamental flaw in American politics. And this paradigm reflects and exacerbates almost every issue we yap about. Because until we as a citizenry can match the access and influence of the Deep Pockets - or until we are smart enough not to buy into their spun bull{censored}, which is 95% of what gets ME so hot under the collar, btw, and why I yell like a crazy person - we are a paper tiger being led by corporate interests. So while keeping immigrants out and deporting those here illegally - and in this example, we are primarily talking about specific Mexico/US interaction, tho illegals come from every country on the planet - is certainly not something we want to abandon, getting to the root of the problem of those who hinder any real progress on the issue - including our trade agreements with Mexico - is a far more necessary step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members syscrusher Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 COME THE {censored} ON, MAN! You're right. All of the people who live here are people who were born here. We owe nothing to to generations of immigrants who literally carried this country on their backs for decades. And please, keep lumping these people in the same category as thieves, murderers and rapists. It makes perfect sense. Some people just don't {censored}ing get it. Do any of you guys know what it takes to apply for a US citizenship here? Do you know what kind of hoops these people have to go through to do that? Bull{censored} hoops that our government set out for them? I can tell you from my experience that these people would do it legally if they could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DeathMonkey Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 There are a million good reasons to close down the border. Unfortunately, they can't surpass the "Humanist" emotional logic (haha!) that has kept the borders wide open.Yeah, like these two {censored}ing bleeding hearts.(McCain supported the 2003 Amnesty, and included a "Pathway to Citizenship" in his 2006 bill, which he later recanted in his bid for the Presidency when he realized that he'd get more money from other people's xenophobia) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jnurp Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 like i said before, there is some Archie Bunker {censored} goin on in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Cohn Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Yeah, like these two {censored}ing bleeding hearts. (McCain supported the 2003 Amnesty, and included a "Pathway to Citizenship" in his 2006 bill, which he later recanted in his bid for the Presidency when he realized that he'd get more money from other people's xenophobia) Hey DM! I think your example ties into kbizzle's and my example: these clowns were just trying to secure votes. These guys are so twisted and {censored}ed nothing will ever resolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members syscrusher Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 I am the son of two immingrants who came over here the right way. I have no patience for illegals. Some people in here claim that the Americans in here are proving why the rest of the world hates them. Let me clue you in on a little something. No country likes having illegals. Go to Spain or France and ask them about their illegal problems and listen to them rant. When you are an illegal immigrant, you have broken federal law. Therefore, you are a criminal. Please, I can just about hear the violins playing now. Like that makes you any better. You just lucky your here and your parents were lucky enough to do it the so called "right way". No many people have that same opportunity as your parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dolf Posted July 31, 2009 Members Share Posted July 31, 2009 Yeah, like these two {censored}ing bleeding hearts. (McCain supported the 2003 Amnesty, and included a "Pathway to Citizenship" in his 2006 bill, which he later recanted in his bid for the Presidency when he realized that he'd get more money from other people's xenophobia) oh snap BTW, we should amend the Statue of Liberty while we're at it. Bring me your tired, your poor,(Well, not TOO poor) Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, (once they've filed the proper paperwork and made their way through the waiting list) The wretched refuse of your teeming shores (after you clean them up a little) Send these, the homeless tempest-tossed to me (as long as they're skilled laborers and above all LITERATE) I lift my lamp beside the golden door (to Wall Street) But then again, that came from the French, so it must be liberal hippy bull{censored}. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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