Enough about brands/tonewoods... what about technique?

[kwakatak]

A few folks here and elsewhere have always commented on the lack of variety and recurrence of the same old threads. I mean, granted that the search function is busted up and on blocks in HC's front yard but how hard is it to count more than a couple of "what's the 'best' guitar for $XXX" threads on the first page alone.

 

Well, I'm gonna just sail through those and say that when it comes right down to it, the strings, the guitar or the type of tonewoods aren't really that important: it's all about the player IMO.

 

Think of it this way: how can you identify a certain player? Is it by his tone or the way he holds his guitar? Nope. It's about how he plays it; the feelings that he puts into his/her playing to express a feeling. Sure strings and picks may play a part. I'll even grant you that maybe it's harder to get a certain "mood" out of a plywood box, but in the end it's all about how a person's soul is wired into his body so that what he's feeling comes through his fingers.

 

Singers have it even easier. They have no instruments to credit their virtuosity or hide behind and blame for their inadequacies. Why should it be any different with a musician who plays any instrument, be it guitar or tenor saxophone?

 

Like I said, when it comes right down to it it's all about the person playing the guitar and not anything about the instrument - except of course unless the instrument is completely unplayable, can't stay in tune, is stuffed full of cheetos, whatever...

 

So am I wrong? Barring some serious disability, will a little extra practice a day really hurt you in the long run? Come on, now. Don't blame or credit the guitar. It's just a tool, one that can ultimately be adjusted to one's own preferences or replaced by a better (and not necessarily more expensive) tool.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the rant. It was brought about it part by an article I read in this morning's paper about obesity being contagious! Now that made me want to write the editor and tell him that the only things along those lines that are truly contagious are stupidity and ignorance - 2 things which the press (both "liberal" and "conservative") seems to excel in.

[Clif Schlicher]

Amen! Spot on.

 

It is so easy to get caught up in the gear, and lose sight of it's purpose. I have seen this in golf, fly fishing, hell, any kind of fishing, and uncounted other pursuits. It may be our American fascination with gadgets, (What say you, Euro-folk?) or maybe it's just easier to discuss gear than technique in a venue such as this.

[Freeman Keller]

So is it a little extra practice each day that provided the unique sound that we associate with certain players? I mean Django and Chet and Leo and RJ are each so different from any of their contemporaries - how does that happen? The rest of us mediocre player spend all our lives trying to emulate them - but where does that spark or whatever you want to call it, come from?

 

We buy a $3000 copy of RJ's or Leo's guitar, but the sound is in the way their minds moved their fingers. All the practice in the world and I'll never have that.

 

Obesity is contagious in that it reflects so many of the other things that we value - we think that too much of anything is good. Our cars, homes, diets and lifestyle are all based on excess. I work in a shop with about 100 others and we have a gym provided by our management. There are one or two others like myself that use it on our lunch hour - most of the rest of the guys head for the local McDonalds and super size it (driving a Dodge super cab Ram whatever with one person in the front seat). Oh, sorry, end of rant

[kwakatak]

Hehe, Freeman,

 

The article claimed that obesity was contagious between friends regardless of where they lived in relation to each other. That is to say that if two friends lived 6 hours away from each other, they were still likely to both be obese.

 

That sounds like a stretch of logic to me - no pun intended!

[missedmyexit]

 

Hehe, Freeman, The article claimed that obesity was contagious between friends regardless of where they lived in relation to each other. That is to say that if two friends lived 6 hours away from each other, they were still likely to both be obese. That sounds like a stretch of logic to me - no pun intended!

 

 

It's absurd logic that can be applied to almost anything.. Basketball is contagious, if you like Basketball changes are your friends like Basketball. This is not logic it is common sense. If someone likes outdoor activities it is unlikely he or she is going to have a successful friendship with someone who sits on the couch all day eating twinkies.

 

Back to the more relevant topic.. I agree on both your points, this board does get a little stale at times with all the discussions on what guitar to buy at what price and I would also enjoy some more discussions on tips on how to be a better acoustic player.

[drnihili]

 

It's absurd logic that can be applied to almost anything.. Basketball is contagious, if you like Basketball changes are your friends like Basketball. This is not logic it is common sense. If someone likes outdoor activities it is unlikely he or she is going to have a successful friendship with someone who sits on the couch all day eating twinkies.

 

 

You should try reading the article, you've missed both the point and the argument for it, entirely.

ETA: here's a precis - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/07/070725175419.htm

 

 

Back to the more relevant topic.. I agree on both your points, this board does get a little stale at times with all the discussions on what guitar to buy at what price and I would also enjoy some more discussions on tips on how to be a better acoustic player.

 

 

One of the difficulties is that there are a wide variety of skill levels and commitment levels on the board. FK describes himself as "mediocre". Yet his mediocrity is something I would aspire to. Some members (me included) are at best casual players, others are professionals. No tips are likely to cover the entire range. Thus any given thread will not be applicable to many of the people on the board. Indeed, I suspect that most thread are inapplicable to most of the membership. But that's as it should be.

 

If you want more discussion of a topic, then start a thread that discusses it.

[missedmyexit]

 

If you want more discussion of a topic, then start a thread that discusses it.

 

 

I have started some in the past, I remember one particularly about blues soloing and got a ton of great suggestions.

[drnihili]

 

I don't understand how that's way off from what I was saying[.

 

 

Where it's way off is that the article specifically says that this is not an effect of obese people finding obese friends. It's an effect among people who are already friend. If one becomes obese, the others are more likely to do so also, even if they live far away.

 

The "absurd logic" you attributed to the authors has nothing whatsoever to do with their study and is explicitly not part of their reasoning.

 

However, this is far off topic, so I won't pursue it after this.

 

As for technique, I'm afraid I use biblical technique - my right hand doesn't know what my left is doing.

[Queequeg]

Now this is kind of a key theme/issue of mine, Kwak. I can recognize a player (and I bet you all can, too) by his/her style and personality, panache, & touch. The way he/she bends a note or runs a scale or attacks a chord. The player's soul & personality is channeled through the instrument. More practice will make him/her (or us) better channelers, better able to express our unique selfness through the guitar. It won't make me sound more like Clapton or Kottke or Robert Johnson. It will allow me to better express myself musically to sound like, well, like "me". I'll have to settle for that.

Certainly, a guitar that feels right to me & sounds pleasing to me, and looks good to me and mirrors my own ideas of adornment or the lack thereof will allow me to concentrate more on getting my artistic message out, instead of thinking that this thing is out of tune or muddy or cramps my hand or the thousands of other distractions that cross my mind when I should be thinking about the music within me. For me personally, and for just me, and I don't necessarily think this has to be true for anybody else, and you all can tell me to go pound salt, but whether its sapele or mahogany is so far down the food chain in terms of what it sounds like when I play it, that it rarely hits my radar screen.

My "issues" are concentration, and stage fright and clams, and trying not to let the clams get me down and stop me dead in my tracks. All self esteem issues I grapple with.

Its a way of communicating, not unlike spoken language. The more skilled and studied and rehearsed we are, the better able we are to get out message across clearly and concisely and listeners will hear and appreciate what it is that we are trying to say musically.

"and gimme another dozen a them jelly do3nuts."

[missedmyexit]

Another thing about getting more/new Guitars is for me keeping me interested. I as I imagine most, play the {censored} out of a guitar the first week I get it. It tapers of slight after the first week but new guitars begged to be played and I hope playing will make me a better player. (I have yet to see any evidence of this).

[EvilTwin]

 

So is it a little extra practice each day that provided the unique sound that we associate with certain players? I mean Django and Chet and Leo and RJ are each so different from any of their contemporaries - how does that happen? The rest of us mediocre player spend all our lives trying to emulate them - but where does that spark or whatever you want to call it, come from?

 

 

Well, with RJ and Django it had to do with a sort of creative isolation.

 

RJ had heard other delta blues players, but he lived in a time where he wasn't inundated by outside influence. Odds are, he played alone exponentially more often than he played with other musicians. I'd place his style as being more in debt to that than anything -- he was a product of a way of life that is pretty much gone. His style, his "spark," grew out of his isolation.

 

Django played with tons of musicians, but he didn't have any real blueprint for what single-string lead playing was supposed to sound like on a guitar. About the only forebearer he could really look to was Eddie Lang, who he may not have even heard when he started playing. He kinda had a blank canvas to work with...he just filled it in with equal parts Louis Armstrong and gypsy caravan. His style and personality shine through so brightly because he was a true pioneer; he laid the groundwork.

 

Give Johnson or Reinhardt different guitars, and they still would have found a way to sound like themselves. They had to make a style, and give themselves a variety of options, with their hands alone. We're a little spoiled now ("I'd like a different sound...lemme get another guitar").

 

Is it the magician, or the wand? I think it's the magician.

[brahmz118]

Nice post, kwak. This is something I think about all the time. I don't mind when guitars get a little bit of credit or blame for influencing the musical result, but sometimes I think it can get out of hand.

 

There's something a bit unsettling about meeting a veteran guitar enthusiast who can hear subtle tonewood differences and develop strong preferences about them -- yet remains unable to distinguish a V - I chord change from a IV - I. I don't want to condemn those people, but it's hard for me to relate to their musical priorities.

 

I want to believe that our main connection with the acoustic guitar came from some sort of playing breakthrough. I don't think we all have the same shared interest in tonal nuances. But I do think that an underlying desire to improve technique is something that we all have in common. Am I wrong?

 

I like to see discussions about playing. I totally understand what JT was saying in the End of Days thread about the difficulties inherent in talking about playing, but I personally welcome the challenge. Sometimes I fail at it, by using the wrong terminology or focusing on the wrong concepts. But talking about music is generally more interesting to me than talking about tone.

 

I've ventured into the Lesson Loft in search of playing discussions, only to find that the threads seem to cater mostly to electric and jazz players, or to theory buffs. And some of it is so advanced that it's not practical. I want to get to the music, and I want to help others get to the music. That's why I fell in love with the unplugged immediateness of the acoustic guitar in the first place.

[riffmeister]

I've worked out two beautiful (and reasonably challenging) short pieces recently, "Natalia" by the Venezuelan composer Antonio Lauro and "Scherzino Mexicano" by the Mexican composer Manuel Ponce. They sound best on a Spruce/Brazilian guitar. Mucho fun to play and great melodies and harmonies. I'd recommend them to any intermediate level classical guitarist.

 

Natalia:

 

Scherzino Mexicano:

 

.

[AK47]

To look at this in a slightly different perspective. I can rebuild an engine with some junk tools. I can do a faster and much better job with good quality tools. It's hard to reach your potential on an Estaban guitar. If you have a good guitar that plays well, sounds good, and is responsive then that's all you really need. The music is in the guitarist and it is up to that guitarist to express it through the instrument. That said different guitars sound better for different styles of playing. Many of us play in different styles and have that need to have optional tools of the trade. Sometimes it does take GAS to fuel the engine.

[JasmineTea]

Am I wrong?

No. That was a wonderful post. My question is, how do we get started? I'm all for sharing what I can about (my) technique, but I'm not sure I can convey it by talking about it on the net. Maybe I'm missing something here...

[Cripes]

There seems to be an underlying generalization about the hows of playing guitar that I cannot connect with here. I make no assumptions about any level of playing or theory knowledge that can be related to some sort of standard. That's all so arbitrary and spontaneous in each of us that to try to nail down technique for exhibiting here would not be so different than trying to explain our respective fingerprints with regard to an "average" or "standard" fingerprint. I realize that kind of detail isn't necessary but it is largely the realm of nuance that distinguishes us all.

 

I, for example, make no attempt to know this person's style or that person's music. I have no frame of reference to offer anyone. When I was an acoustic guitar upstart I did have many such references to draw from. But, I made a 180 degree turn years ago and have musically become unrecognizable in the distance I chose to put between influences and what I'm personally looking to do.

 

Without a standard, or commonly known reference most people are not comfortable with themselves in their undertakings because they are at a loss to make progress judgements, and that's the generalization I think is being introduced here. We are a product of our exposure - clothing styles, personal grooming standards, social etiquette, etc. - and music is no different if our indoctrinations are not questioned. I do question it and where music is concerned I remain disconnected from such brainwashing. Robert Johnson, et all, are who they were/are. Great, but I have no desire to grade my progress by their popularity indices. Nor do I think anyone else should put such firewalls on themselves.

 

Now, if someone wants to know the mechanical movements of a fingerpicking method - style - I'm there for them. After that, they should be left alone to discover their own nuances and creativity away from the herd. When they go down that path they will establish their own standards for which guitars suit them best.

[AK47]

Yeah What Cripes said.

[guitarist21]

Great thread, kwak, totally true. I'm not saying I'm anything special, but when I head over to a friend's house and play their little-used, slightly crappy guitar, it gives them a little confidence and almost inspiration knowing that a musical sound can be made on the guitar they struggle with. Sometimes that encouragement is all a struggling guitar player needs.

 

Ellen

[eflat]

Amen! Spot on. It is so easy to get caught up in the gear, and lose sight of it's purpose.(What say you, Euro-folk?) or maybe it's just easier to discuss gear than technique in a venue such as this.

 

 

I, representing the whole of Europe here , agree. Its always easier to buy stuff than to play and practice, and thinking that the best gear makes you the best player is certainly a step in the wrong direction.

[brahmz118]

Cripes, forgive me if I'm misinterpreting your post, but I wonder if playing-related threads could still flourish in the absence of the whole idea of grading progress against a standard. For some, progress might simply mean adding more tricks, skills, and techniques to their pile than they had before. Instead of a grading system ranging from A+ to F, we all just have numbers and are trying to move towards bigger numbers. And those numbers don't have any universal meaning -- it's all individual. One person's arrival at 4,286 might be equivalent to another person's 11, in terms of emotional satisfaction and musical self-esteem.

 

I don't think it matters if someone's playing defies traditional labeling or categorization. Chances are, I can learn something from them, not because they are more advanced necessarily, but because they have different views and different passions.

 

I wish there could be more musical problem solving in this forum. There's so much creativity and unique thinking in this forum that rarely gets tapped. In a gear-related thread, I don't necessarily want to hear the opinion of someone who has no experience with the initial question. But in a playing-related thread, someone who has never thought about the initial question before still might be able to provide an innovative, outside-the-box answer.

 

I guess we just need to ask the right questions -- questions that allow for a variety of playing ideas and strategies, not just one correct answer.

[kwakatak]

OK, let me tell you a little secret: I do all my best playing when I'm half-asleep. If I were awake I'd be too keyed up to maintain the semi-hypnotic state required to get into the groove.

 

I'm frequently awed by musicians who can play and carry on conversations at the same time, but OTOH I guess you could say that they're not doing their performance justice. IMO it's kinda like being your own heckler.

[brahmz118]

 

No. That was a wonderful post. My question is, how do we get started? I'm all for sharing what I can about (my) technique, but I'm not sure I can convey it by talking about it on the net. Maybe I'm missing something here...

 

 

I think for the more advanced stuff you might be right and I'm currently too stubborn to see it. The internet exchange would be significantly inferior compared to the in-the-same-room exchange. Maybe a soundclip is worth a thousand pictures, but if you don't have those technological capabilities, a word is worth one millionth of a soundclip -- and that's pretty lousy.

 

At this point I would just say if you can hear the idea or play the idea and want to try to convey it in words, do your best. I'm sure that would be helpful in some way to someone.

[kwakatak]

 

I think for the more advanced stuff you might be right and I'm currently too stubborn to see it. The internet exchange would be significantly inferior compared to the in-the-same-room exchange. Maybe a soundclip is worth a thousand pictures, but if you don't have those technological capabilities, a word is worth one millionth of a soundclip -- and that's pretty lousy. At this point I would just say if you can hear the idea or play the idea and want to try to convey it in words, do your best. I'm sure that would be helpful in some way to someone.

 

 

That's a good start. I like that folks post audio or video clips of their playing, but couldn't we also do sort of mini-lessons or just short little bag-of-trick things?

 

For example, how about somebody sharing how to do a technique they have in their bag of tricks. Something along the lines of this:

 

 

[Cripes]

 

Cripes, forgive me if I'm misinterpreting your post, but I wonder if playing-related threads could still flourish in the absence of the whole idea of grading progress against a standard. For some, progress might simply mean adding more tricks, skills, and techniques to their pile than they had before. Instead of a grading system ranging from A+ to F, we all just have numbers and are trying to move towards bigger numbers. And those numbers don't have any universal meaning -- it's all individual. One person's arrival at 4,286 might be equivalent to another person's 11, in terms of emotional satisfaction and musical self-esteem. I don't think it matters if someone's playing defies traditional labeling or categorization. Chances are, I can learn something from them, not because they are more advanced necessarily, but because they have different views and different passions. I wish there could be more musical problem solving in this forum. There's so much creativity and unique thinking in this forum that rarely gets tapped. In a gear-related thread, I don't necessarily want to hear the opinion of someone who has no experience with the initial question. But in a playing-related thread, someone who has never thought about the initial question before still might be able to provide an innovative, outside-the-box answer. I guess we just need to ask the right questions -- questions that allow for a variety of playing ideas and strategies, not just one correct answer.

 

 

Fair enough, if it remains fair. I would openly accept the objectivity of introducing a thread, maybe even a sticky, of techniques not so different in purpose from Freeman's sticky about guitar health. I would even go so far as to encourage those who can to post instructional movie clips of their techniques. I would agree that what one person does can be performed by another with different techniques, and getting those options out there for all to benefit from would be the ideal thing.

 

What I would not want to see is a degradation of the forum in any way due to (unintended) frustrations imposed on those who can't, by those who can, perform with advanced skills. In other words, I would not want this place to become an exhibition hall for advanced players. If isolated to a sticky, that would be different and perfectly acceptable.

[riffmeister]

technique meets corn:

 

 

 

 

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