Members Etienne Rambert Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 My Guild F-65ce has the best action I've ever seen on an acoustic. It's the kind of action players dream of having. Samilyn has played it. She can confirm how nice it plays. But here is my problem: The saddle is brand new. It has not been carved, shaved, shaped or cut. It's just a bone or plastic rectangle with square corners, seated in the bridge slot. This makes me worry. If the action is this nice and the saddle is still high and untouched, what does that say about the truss rod? Has it been adjusted? If so how much? I've looked and I can't tell. No marks. There is room for adjustment in either direction. I determined that much.. Should I have a luthier back off the truss rod and carve down the saddle? But if I did that, the object would be to get what I already have - a guitar with great action. That seems sort of stupid. I'm not sure I could explain that to a VN luthier either. Or should I just leave it until I have a problem? I haven't measured the action. At the 12th fret though, it's still fast and it doesn't buzz anywhere up or down the neck. So I'm not keen on measuring it. It's perfect as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Defiance Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 id take it somewhere...it might cause real problems down the line if you dont...atleast have it cked out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted November 5, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 Guitar was built in 1997. At some point, the saddle was replaced. I don't know why. But it was never shaved, shaped, carved or cut. Action has always been very fast since I bought this guitar a year ago. I'm not sure how to explain what I'm doing though. The action is perfect. The saddle is too high. I want to check the truss rod and shave the saddle to get the action to exactly where it is now? It doesn't really make sense to me. I'm not sure it will make sense to Mr. Binh either. We'll see. I guess it's a nice problem to have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Samilyn Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 My Guild F-65ce has the best action I've ever seen on an acoustic. It's the kind of action players dream of having. Samilyn has played it. She can confirm how nice it plays. But here is my problem: The saddle is brand new. It has not been carved, shaved, shaped or cut. It's just a bone or plastic rectangle with square corners, seated in the bridge slot. This makes me worry. If the action is this nice and the saddle is still high and untouched, what does that say about the truss rod? Has it been adjusted? If so how much? I've looked and I can't tell. No marks. There is room for adjustment in either direction. I determined that much.. Should I have a luthier back off the truss rod and carve down the saddle? But if I did that, the object would be to get what I already have - a guitar with great action. That seems sort of stupid. I'm not sure I could explain that to a VN luthier either. Or should I just leave it until I have a problem?I haven't measured the action. At the 12th fret though, it's still fast and it doesn't buzz anywhere up or down the neck. So I'm not keen on measuring it. It's perfect as it is. It plays and sounds like a dream. Don't fix what ain't broke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Palmer Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 If the action is perfect I'd say the saddle isn't too high and what you have is the facility to lower action if/when your guitar is much, much older and it's neck needs adjusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 I'm with Sam and Gary - if it plays well don't mess with it. If it stops playing well - get it sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boxorox Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 If the intonation is good and the bridge corners don't hurt, leave it alone and enjoy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members babablowfish Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 If the intonation is good and the bridge corners don't hurt, leave it alone and enjoy! Sounds good to me. I am having a tough time understanding why you think there is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stinky_seagull Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 I was under the impression that it was good to have a high saddle? sounds like it's quite a gem (oh, and it looks oh so pretty!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted November 5, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 I'm just worried about how much the truss rod has been turned to get this low action with such a high saddle. I'm also concerned about why the previous owner may have replaced the old saddle. I won't do anything to it over here. I'll bring it back to the States next year and have Jimmie Foster look at it. I agree though. If it ain't broke don't fix it. But I'll get someone qualified to check it out. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 Marcell, the saddle doesn't look too high, and remember that the truss rod is used to set the relief, not the action. So, if the action is acceptable and the guitar does not buzz anywhere on the neck, those are my criteria for a proper setup. Generally that will mean relief somewhere between 0.004 (very flat neck) to 0.020 (quite a bit of relief) and AT LEAST 1/8 inch of saddle sticking out.. I'm assuming your neck angle is OK. A very tall saddle can be somewhat weak in the slot and might be prone to breaking the bridge slot, but the big problem is too low a saddle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Florida_Gator Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 Agree -- the saddle does NOT look too high, and it's rounded on the top (not "square" as you said originally). I wouldn't mess with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chip Stewart Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 From the pictures, the saddle looks fine. You need some height to the saddle to get a good angle down to the bridge pins. If it plays well, don't mess with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members VintageToneGuy Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 Samilyn said it best; "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 Marc, there's nothing to be concerned about. High saddle and low action means the guitar will not need a neck reset, probly ever, or, not likely in your lifetime. I'm always on the lookout for high-saddle-low-action guitars for that very reason. Plus they're easy to play, and a higher saddle means better breakangle from br-pins to saddle which puts more string energy into the top. It's a good thing. Truss. FK's sticky thread shows how to check the neck bow. IMO, I like it with almost no relief, darn near none. Nut grooves filed low, action is borderline buzzing at the 12th fret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted November 5, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 That digital photo doesn't really show the corners. Viewed from the front, you can see them. They're not round. They're pointed at the top and then slope off down the sides. That photo also makes the saddle seem lower than it is. I'll try to take another one from the front. It's hard to get a good shot that close-up with this camera. FK: How can someone judge how far a truss rod has already been turned, ie., how much relief has been applied? I guess that's the question that's bothering me. JT: I think the nut is new also. I'm not sure about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted November 5, 2008 Members Share Posted November 5, 2008 When I made the saddle on my 000 I purposely made a little scallop in the ends where it extends past the E strings leaving a little point - some Martins were this way and I wanted to emulate it. As far as the truss rod, they work in different fashions but basically they are threaded so that as the nut is screwed tighter it bends the neck backward, reducing relief. Screw it far enough and you'll get back bow. Tighten it far enough and something will break. Loosening the nut either actively or passively puts more relief in, at some point with most rods you will start unscrewing off the end of the rod. Ideally you reach a happy medium where the rod is just enough it tension to (1) counter the pulling tension of the strings and (2) provide just enough relief to ensure playability as JT describes. Here is a pic of a double acting t/r that has really been cranked down, it would be trying to back bow the neck How can you tell if someone has screwed with it? Ideally someone DID screw with it and put the correct amount of relief into the neck. How do you check? That was the subject of the sick guitar thread. (In a nutshell, capo it at one and hold down the E strings at 12. You should have a little bit of clearance at each fret in between, we usually measure at 6 or 7 and it should be some where around the thickness of on business card. Touching the frets is bad, more than two cards is bad). If you like really low action, like JT does, you need minimum relief - more like 0.004-6. If you like higher action you can get by with a little more relief. I'll just add that like JT, I like medium low nut slots, fairly flat neck (0.006-8) but I like it a little higher at 12 - I often have a broken bottle on my pinkie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RizinRico Posted November 6, 2008 Members Share Posted November 6, 2008 perhaps you are spending way too much time looking and thinking and way too little time feeling and listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted November 7, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 7, 2008 I finally figured out the macro function on this digital camera. This photo will show how high the saddle is and how it stops at a point and then flares out. It's not rectangular - but you can see the corners, especially on the right. Thanks for everybody's help. I'm not going to do anything now. Next year, I'll take it to a stateside luthier & make sure the truss rod has not been turned too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members happy-man Posted November 7, 2008 Members Share Posted November 7, 2008 Doesn't look too high to me. If by the corner you mean the top right edge (viewed from picture), the shape of that part of the saddle isn't important. Rounding the corner is just cosmetic. When you said rectangular, I'm assuming most of us thought you meant the narrow dimension, the section that the string crosses over. That portion you want rounded so that the string only touches in a small area. Scott O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffmeister Posted November 7, 2008 Members Share Posted November 7, 2008 This photo will show how high the saddle is and how it stops at a point and then flares out. . Doesn't look high at all. Here's my Collings dread........just shy of 4 mm on the bass side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Palmer Posted November 7, 2008 Members Share Posted November 7, 2008 I finally figured out the macro function on this digital camera. This photo will show how high the saddle is and how it stops at a point and then flares out. It's not rectangular - but you can see the corners, especially on the right. Thanks for everybody's help. I'm not going to do anything now. Next year, I'll take it to a stateside luthier & make sure the truss rod has not been turned too much. If anything, you have a very reasonably made instrument with great action and nothing to worry about. The saddle crown flows with the contour of the bridge top surface and seemingly minor details of this nature are indicative of an excellent level of craftsmanship and design. I'd trust any/all remedial work to the luthier originally responsible for crafting this piece and not lose a wink of sleep over it. I wouldn't consider doing any work on this instrument unless absolutely necessary and - judging by your feedback - none is necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JasmineTea Posted November 7, 2008 Members Share Posted November 7, 2008 Marc, most my saddles are higher than that. My OM-35 is about the same as in your pic, though. High saddles are good for break angle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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