OT: How do you protect your ideas?

[DarkHorseJ27]

I've run into a few people at the different places I have lived that have claimed to written something that is an obscure but good piece of music, knowing that virtually no one would know that they did not. And just about everyone seemed to fall for it.

 

I was also reading about the Phantom of the Opera Overture. Two different people have claimed credit for the opening riff, and another claimed plagiarism on the rest of the piece. It seems if you create something good enough others will try to claim it as their own.

 

I've also noticed a tendency for people to think whomever they heard first did it first, and have accused the originator of stealing it from the copyier.

 

I doubt I'll create anything worth stealing lol, but it begs the question how do you protect what you create? How do you try to make sure people know its yours?

[Opa John]

I don't know the "ins and outs" about it, but I'm pretty sure there's a way to "register" your music without paying the price of actually having it "copyrighted"......which, as I understand it, can get pretty expensive. I'm sure someone else can shed some light on this subject.

[Samilyn]

I can't afford to copyright everything I do either, and I don't know all the legal ins and outs, but here's what I do in a feeble attempt to cover my butt:

 

(1) If I've pulled something together that I think is a keeper, I put it on a time/date-stamped vid and stash it on storage media. Brave souls could upload the vid to YouTube or post it somewhere on the web. Doesn't matter if it gets any views or not - it's the upload date that counts. (More on that below)

 

(2) If the work is complete, I give it a title and register it with BMI.

 

(3) Even if it's sloppy and poorly produced, I upload it to some site on the Internet. Any sites where you can prove the upload date would be okay. Since websites tend to drop like flies at times, I upload to several different sites. Many sites also have you list your release date and that can be any date you want, but it would be a good idea to have another venue/site to back up that date.

 

That said, our own VOM is a good example of an irrefutable date stamp. An infringer would have to somehow prove that he/she created the work before you performed it here, which might be pretty hard to do.

 

(4) Your computer also comes in handy because when you first create a file, the creation date shows up, then subsequent modification dates. Again, another small piece of evidence in your favor. Make sure you keep backup files forever.

[Opa John]

Good post, Sam. I thank you. All of my stuff is on my computer and I DO keep everything backed up religiously. I've got a couple of flash drives that sit right here on my desk and they get used just about every day.

[guitarist21]

One of the most important things any songwriter can do is register their work with a PRO. It's easy for me to say because I live in Nashville and can take my ASCAP rep out for coffee, but in my experience if you get to know your people, they will remember you and take care of you.

[Samilyn]

This. ^^^

 

And for you non-professionals, a PRO is Performing/Performer's/Performance Rights Organization. This is BMI, ASCAP, SESAC and Sound Exchange here in the US.

 

For a good list of international PROs, check out this page at BMI

[knockwood]

One simple and very cheap thing I've done a few times is to print a hard copy, seal it in an envelope, address it to yourself and then go to the post office and send it to yourself via registered mail (or is it certified? can't remember). This does NOT copyright your work; however, it is useful if a dispute should ever land you in court. The reason is that the post office will place its own dated seal on the envelope. Provided that you do not ever break the seal, it can be entered as evidence in court and would be pretty difficult to refute if someone else claims authorship of your work. When I've done this in the past, I tend to do at least two separate copies, just in case.

 

Better, more permanent methods are described above by Sami and Ellen.

[Grant Harding]

That's funny - we released a 45 (that's vinyl for you younguns) in 1984 in Trinidad & Tobago that had the words "C'est la, c'est la" at the end of the verse. In 1986 Lionel Richie released a song called "Se La" and I always wondered. He used a real Trinidad feel and the Trini word "Liming" in the song All Night Long in 1983 so I knew there was at least some connection to the land of steel drums and soca.

 

I don't actually think he was influenced by it, but it feels good to think that it could maybe be a remote possibility.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

Here in Canada we use SoCan which is the Canadian version of BMI or ASCAP.

[Grant Harding]

Here in Canada we use SoCan which is the Canadian version of BMI or ASCAP.

Hey - I didn't know you were a Canuck like me. Good day, eh.

[Neal]

Do any of us really have to worry? My stuff is up there on the tubey-thing, and I've had a few do covers actually (Gossip, uke-related), the others if they want to cover, fine. I imagine that the day comes and I hear Brad Paisley singing "Mr. Procrastination"....... no, ain't gonna happen.

[Grant Harding]

Decades ago I was given this advice:

 

1) Do a simple recording of the song

2) Mail myself a tape of it

3) File the unopened package

 

The idea is that the postal service stamps would prove the date of the recording and thus the original idea. Never did it, but it seems weak in a copyright protection sense.

[larry50]

Federal copyright law is pretty clear. When you produce a tangible copy of your work (in writing, recorded etc.), you AUTOMATICALLY obtain federal copyright protection. No registration of any sort is required, although you must register your copyright with the United States Copyright office in order to sue in federal court for infringement.

 

Registration (with BMI, PRO etc.) provides a date of creation, but nothing more. You obtain no additional rights beyond what a basic federal copyright provides. So, whenever you create a work, record it, or write it out, you are protected.

 

Some tips:

 

1. If you do produce a tangible copy, always put your name, the little "c" in a circle, and the date on it.

 

2. You can register multiple songs with the United States Copyright Office as a single compilation. You thus pay one registration fee. For example, it currently costs $35.00 to file an application electronically, or $50 by paper. You can register a compilation of multiple recordings on Copyright Form CO and pay a single $65.00 fee.

[Samilyn]

Decades ago I was given this advice: 1) Do a simple recording of the song 2) Mail myself a tape of it 3) File the unopened package The idea is that the postal service stamps would prove the date of the recording and thus the original idea. Never did it, but it seems weak in a copyright protection sense.

 

IMO, both of the above posts are excellent methods of establishing a time frame for the creation of your work. Since the burden of proof rests with the creator of the work, the more evidence you can pile up, the better off you'll be in case of a dispute.

 

Postal Service date and/or time stamps are not necessarily weak in the evidential sense, especially if it is obvious that the dated envelope or parcel has never been tampered with or opened.

 

In the meantime, if you really want to protect your rights, save up the bucks for a copyright. You can do it online through the ECO (Electronic Copyright Office).

 

Here's a link to their tutorial. It's a pdf and well worth reading.

 

Electronic Copyright Office Tutorial

 

 

Edit to add: What Larry said in the above post = Burn all your stuff onto a CD and register the compilation for cheap.

[knockwood]

There is also the old trick where you just walk around all the time in a padlocked space helmet. I did this for a few years before I remembered I don't have any good ideas.

[Terry Allan Hall]

 

Decades ago I was given this advice: 1) Do a simple recording of the song 2) Mail myself a tape of it 3) File the unopened package The idea is that the postal service stamps would prove the date of the recording and thus the original idea. Never did it, but it seems weak in a copyright protection sense.

 

 

Unfortunately, songwriters and authors have relied on that method, only to dicover that the court wouldn't recognize the legitimacy...don't recall the reasoning, though.

[Axegrinder009]

The idea that you can protect your intellectual property by mailing it to yourself is a complete myth. Courts will not recognize that method. The only slam-dunk method is to register your work with the US Copyright Office. You can do a 'compilation' [album] for $35.00 online. Using some other method to prove date of copyright becomes a problem if you have to sue someone for copyright violation. Also note that by using the US Copyright Office you have a defacto legal case for $150,000.00 in infringement penalties.

 

Registering with a PRO isn't a bad idea. I am registered with BMI as an artist, and my record company is registered as a publisher. My personal registration was free, and my publishing registration was only $35.00. ASCAP is a bit different on fees, etc.

 

I value my intellectual properties, so I want to protect them. Certainly, there is very little chance of fame and fortune from my efforts, but they are MY EFFORTS, and if I have any respect for them I will protect them from thieves and scammers.

[HoboSage]

This is an edited excerpt from a post I made awhile back in another forum. As a more detailed followup to Axegrinder's insightful post, I thought I'd post it here for anyone's potential benefit.

 

 

The notion that it's not worth registering your copyrights in an original song or an original literary work like separate lyrics because the chances that your song or lyric will be "stolen" (i.e., intentionally infringed) by some nefarious person is too remote a possibility to take seriously, is based on misunderstandings about infringement, as well as a strange view of "worth." I'll address whether registration is "worth it" separately, below. But, I'll say here that infringement doesn't have to be intentional or nefarious. "Innocent infringement," where the infringer doesn't realize he or she has infringed a copyright, occurs all the time, and may be the most common type of infringement. But, innocent infringement is still infringement, and the innocent infringer can still be stopped by a court order for ongoing infringement, and is still liable to the copyright owner for damages.

 

It seems to me that notions have also been expressed that there's no significant benefit in registering your copyright to an original work, because all that gives you is another record of your authorship, and if you can otherwise prove your authorship, registration is essentially "a waste of time," and that you can get the same benefits by using other, cheaper alternatives to prove your authorship. I strongly disagree, and I consider such notions extremely misguided. Aside from being a prerequisite for enforcing your copyrights in a U.S. federal court, The U.S. Copyright Act provides authors with substantial benefits for registration with the Copyright Office - and only the Copyright Office. No other "registration" anywhere else is recognized under the Copyright Act. These benefits of official registration are spelled out in the information available at the U.S. Copyright Office webite. For example, your Certificate of Registration issued by the Copyright Office is prima facie proof that you ARE the author. This means that, in infringement litigation, you will not have to prove you are the author. The Court takes that as a presumption, and the burden will shift to the infringer to prove you are not the author. That's a HUGE advantage in litigation. Now, this next part regarding registration is especially important. If you do not register your copyrights in a work within 3 months of first publication of the work (e.g., within 3 months of making your song available on the web), then you cannot get statutory (automatic per law) damages (a money award) for the infringement and you can only recover your actual damages which are likely small and which you have to prove, and you also cannot get your attorney fees for the lawsuit paid for by the infringer. However, if you do promptly register your copyrights after publication, you can get statutory damages without having to prove any actual damages, and you can recover all of your reasonable attorney fees. Courts have discretion in the dollar amount of statutory damages they can award an author in an infringement case. But, without having to prove any actual damages at all, you could be awarded up to $150,000.00 dollars as statutory damages for every separate infringement, and recover all of your reasonable attorney fees - IF, and ONLY if, you had the foresight to promptly register your copyright to the work in question. For many, if not most, copyright infringement cases, it's only the availability of statutory damages and the recovery of attorney fees that would make enforcement of an author's copyrights in a work by suing an infringer a cost-effective remedy. So, it's crucial to promptly register your copyrights if you want to secure those substantial benefits under the law. It's also a lot easier to get a lawyer to represent you in a manner that's cost-effective for you if you had the foresight to promptly register your copyrights and secure all the substantial advantages doing so gives you going into such litigation. It's also a lot easier to stop ongoing infringement and to encourage an out-of-court settlement from an infringer when you have the prima facie proof of authorship your Copyright Registration Certificate provides. And, keep in mind, if the infringer beats you to the Copyright Office and falsely registers first, then, until you can prove otherwise, the infringer will be entitled to the presumption of authorship and will enjoy all the benefits and advantages that come with a prompt registration. Again, the benefits of registration can be found in the treasure trove of info the Copyright Office makes available on its website. They don't do this as a sales pitch. They do this to inform us of the very real and substantial benefits the law provides authors who formally register their copyrights.

 

An ounce of prevention, is worth a pound of cure. A fool and their money are soon parted.

[OldGuitarPlayer]

Some very useful info in this thread.

 

Thanks

[OldGuitarPlayer]

Hey - I didn't know you were a Canuck like me. Good day, eh.

 

Good day, eh?

 

I didn't know you were from Canukistan either. Are you a permanent resident of NZ now?

[Grant Harding]

Yeah - born in Winnipeg and moved here from Ottawa 18 years ago with my NZ born wife. I go back from time to time, but this is home now. I'm still a Canadian citizen - that's never going to change. "..we stand on guard, for, thee."

[Axegrinder009]

I'm getting old and some of my wires are crossed...

 

BMI Publisher fee is $150.00

 

ASCAP Publisher fee is $35.00

 

Just an FYI, but do protect your intellectual property. Nefarious artists will steal or use your works and then feign ignorance while they sandbag you about paying you your fair royalties, etc. This is a common practice, sadly.