Pin Test

[Cldplytkmn]

finally got to give these a listen... putting aside my preferences, it is very obvious the differences that pin material made. this will be a great addition to our stickies.

 

it was interesting to me that even with the pin changes, the guitars kept their own characters. i thought that the bone and plastic were pretty similar, i'd give a slight edge to the plastic. I preferred the ebony, but i suspect that when the strings had deadened a bit (i'm starting to prefer strings that have started to die for alot of my playing), i'd probably want the added highs of the plastic or bone.

 

thanks a bunch, FK.

[eyeball987]

I swapped the Tusq, I think, on my Seagull cedar top with PW ebony pins and I really liked what it did. Could be all mind games but those brass pins did add lots of high end sparkle that could help a too dark guitar. They would be a nightmare in a Taylor I would think.

[babablowfish]

I swapped the Tusq, I think, on my Seagull cedar top with PW ebony pins and I really liked what it did. Could be all mind games but those brass pins did add lots of high end sparkle that could help a too dark guitar. They would be a nightmare in a Taylor I would think.

 

I gotta agree with that, although it would be interesting to hear.

[EvilTwin]

 

Well, I've finally got the pin test done and mp3's uploaded for your listening pleasure. The background, for those who don't remember, is that there have been many discussions over the past year or so about the effects of various parts of our guitars that we can change - strings, saddles, pins, etc. Many people have favorites and have strong opinions about why their choice is better. Bridge pins come in many flavors - plastic, bone, ivory, hard woods like ebony, and metals like brass. It is fairly simple to change them (be aware that there are different sizes and tapers). Some people just do it for looks - a nice abalone dot in the middle of a bone pin does look nice on some guitars. But to try to find out if there is a difference in sound I did the following tests. I have recorded two guitars with a variety of pins, trying to keep everything else the same. The first is an old Martin D-18 -it has a bone saddle and nut, slotted pin holes (which means it can even be played without pins), and was strung with Martin SP PB lights (14 days old). It is a nice old mahogany guitar that is well opened up and might be found playing lead in a bluegrass band. The second guitar is an old Yamaha FG-150, with a plastic saddle and nut, Martin Marquis Bronze lights (also 14 days old). Also 'hog, it is a good example of a cheap "beater" guitar which might see some improvement with new pins. All recording was done with a Shure SM57 located 7 inches from the 12th fret, recorded dry on a Roland Boss BR-532. The wav files were uploaded to my PC, then changed to mp3's with Audacity, and then uploaded to PutFile for your convenience. The samples consist of an identification of the git and pins, then each string is picked (with the same Fender medium pick), then each harmonic with the pick, the a big first position E chord is strummed with the pick. That is repeated without the pick using the flesh of my thumb. OK, here we go Martin - No Pins Martin - Plastic Pins Martin - Ebony Pins Martin - Bone Pins Martin - Brass Pins Yamaha - Plastic Pins Yamaha - Brass Pins

 

 

Wow.

 

First, let me thank you for doing this, Freeman. This is really a great experiment.

 

Second, let me thank you for proving me wrong. I had thought there really wasn't any difference in tone between pin materials. But when I opened your clips and played the strummed E chord part back-to-back, I could hear the differences. Brass was the only one that was night and day different, IMO, but the other materials were fascinating. I think plastic may actually be best in a Martin...who'd have thunk it?

 

What surprised me most was ebony. It actually does sound a bit darker. I put a set on my Seagull S6+Folk, but had convinced myself that the new strings I used were responsible for the slightly darker tone. But those ebony pins must've also had an effect.

 

So we really can give some advice for pins...

If you want more highs, get brass.

Want to tame a bright guitar? Ebony.

Don't want to take away quite as many highs as ebony? Bone.

 

This might be the most informative post I've ever seen on an HC forum.

[0rbitz9]

Wow Freeman! First off, I should compliment you on doing a remarkable job.

One of the hardest things I've found with trying to make comparative sound

clips, is recording all of the tracks exactly the same. It's very easy to

naturally alter your playing dynamics to respond to the dynamics of your

instrument. You've taken special care to play ever clip exactly the same way.

 

On the Martin test, there's some very definate differences. I found myself

focusing on the dynamic attack of the notes, the sustain of the notes, and

the amount of harmonics present. First off, I thought the clip with no pins

was my least favorite, relatively dull compared to the other clips. I didn't like

the brass pins either. Although they had a very responsive initial attack, and

good sutsain, the high strings sounded brittle. The plastic pins seemed to

have the most responive attack and long sustain but were deficient in

overtones. The bone was my favorite, almost as responsive as the plastic,

but with richer overtones. The ebony seemed to have the slowest attack,

plenty of overtones, and good sustain, but a hair on the dark side.

 

It's funny how every one seems to prefer something different here. That

just shows how subjective tonal choices can be.

[vchizzle1]

too much racket for me to concentrate and really hear. on my old guitar I switched from the stock plastic to ebony as a visual change. I think I preferred the sound of the plastic though. I just remember not being impressed with the sound as much when I strung up. I'll have to listen closer here when I have silence.

[EvilTwin]

 

too much racket for me to concentrate and really hear. on my old guitar I switched from the stock plastic to ebony as a visual change. I think I preferred the sound of the plastic though. I just remember not being impressed with the sound as much when I strung up. I'll have to listen closer here when I have silence.

 

 

IMO, you can hear the biggest tonal differences with the chord strum (as opposed to the open picked notes). If you open up all the files, then pause them right before the strum, and play them back to back...there are some definite differences there.

[Freeman Keller]

 

IMO, you can hear the biggest tonal differences with the chord strum (as opposed to the open picked notes). If you open up all the files, then pause them right before the strum, and play them back to back...there are some definite differences there.

 

 

I kind of agree with that, which surprised me. I expected to hear more in the individual notes (and I do with the brass pins particularly). I also realize that I wasn't as consistant with the strum as I could have been.

[EvilTwin]

 

I kind of agree with that, which surprised me. I expected to hear more in the individual notes (and I do with the brass pins particularly). I also realize that I wasn't as consistant with the strum as I could have been.

 

 

You can definitely hear the brass pins in about anything you played.

 

But I think it makes sense that you really hear the differences while strumming a chord -- you simply have more vibrating everywhere on the guitar and more going on harmonically/overtone-wise. The single pluck on each string is, for want of a better term, harmonically "plainer."

[daklander]

I don't know, I could hear a difference in all the single string plucks. Some of them were, to my ear, just plain nasty in tonality. Some almost strident, with the plastic and the no pin in that group. The bone was close. Though the brass was brightest of the bunch it carried more of the "essence" of a string's presence and I thought that, overall, the ebony had the best tonality of any of the pins.

One huge thing to keep in mind is, any given guitar will react differently with any given pin.

My FG150 is great with the brass pins, the FG411S is great with Ebony pins. Each pin worked well to help that particular guitar sound it's best.

I run the same strings on both guitars as well so it's not a "string thing", tthe 411S works better and sustaiins better with Ebony. The 150 loves the brass.

What works for my guitars won't necessarily work for your guitars but I'm betting a decent of brass pins will help any FG150 you have. ;-)

[GerryO']

Hi there FK.

I'm new to the forum and kind of newish to guitarin'

Have you done tests on saddles and nuts of differing materials?

I'm interested in possibly changing the materials on my Avalon so I would be interested in what you have to say.

[guitarcapo]

I'm not buying it myself. Swapping bridge pins never did anything for me. Most of the time I found what was being heard was just the new strings.

[Freeman Keller]

 

Hi there FK. I'm new to the forum and kind of newish to guitarin' Have you done tests on saddles and nuts of differing materials? I'm interested in possibly changing the materials on my Avalon so I would be interested in what you have to say.

 

 

Gerry, welcome to both the git and the group. Both are kind fun.

 

I haven't done anything with either nuts or saddles for a couple of reasons. First - strings and pins are really easy - they are basically interchangable without doing anything else (assuming the pins are the right size). Nuts and saddles are not - they are relatively expensive and are a real pain to change and compare.

 

I have only changed the saddle in one of my guitars - that was the Taylor and frankly I can't say if there was any change or improvement. I didn't record it before or after, and frankly, I can't even give you a good reason why I did it. I have the old one (I think it is Tusq) and could pop it back in, but that would be a pretty limited test. Right now all my guitars except the Yamaha have cow bone saddles and nuts (the Taylor is still the stock Tusq nut), the old Yamie still has plastic and it sounds pretty darn good, all things considered. If your Avalon has a plastic saddle you should consider an upgrade to bone - it is not difficult to do. IMHO an nut is a pain and expense to change and unless there is something dramatically wrong with yours, it isn't worth it.

 

So, theoretically, saddles should have an effect on sound, nuts less so, but honestly, I've never pursued it.

[Freeman Keller]

 

I'm not buying it myself. Swapping bridge pins never did anything for me. Most of the time I found what was being heard was just the new strings.

 

 

And that is why I did it - each of us can make up our own minds based on some small bit of real evidence, as imprecise as it is.

 

Some people are hearing a difference here, some I guess are not. These are the same strings on the same guitars done on the same day. There might be some subtle effect of retuning them (slackening and restretching), except that because of the slotted bridge the strings weren't even removed.

[kwakatak]

This needs to be stickied. Until then...

 

... BUMP!

[Freeman Keller]

This needs to be stickied. Until then... ... BUMP!

 

Neil, both this and the String Test are linked at the end of the Sick Guitar sticky, but 'cha gotta know that. If I get a little time I'll change it into the FAQ like we've discussed.

[bizkid]

I just started playng guitar about 1-2 weeks ago to use it for recording. Im looking for good tone mainly so I tried some ebony pins out of curiousity, here is the result (recorded with a sm 57, about 15-25cm away pointing to 9-12th fret):

 

http://www.aniston-park.com/ebony.mp3

 

http://www.aniston-park.com/plastic.mp3

 

http://www.aniston-park.com/both.mp3

 

(E A G (yes, G) are ebony, D B E plastic)

 

My guitar is a Yamaha FG730S, the place i recorded in my room wasnt the best, there is some boominess i dont have in other places.

My fav is the mix of both pins. Plastic only feels too bass heavy with no lower mids (like a cheap boombox), only ebony sounds good if you want an unobtrusive background guitar track (with some bass removed for clarity). The mix of both sounds perfect for my taste, some added warmth/mids and i keep sparkling highs from the plastic pins. But the ebony is a very close 2nd, on fresh strings maybe i'd even prefer it, i love the warmth to it.

 

Needless to say all file were recorded withhin 15 mins with the same (fresh) set of strings.

 

Any comment on the general tone of this guitar? There wasnt much to compare it to in the store. Only other lower-end guitars.

 

PS: WARNING - very sloppy playing in the mp3s

[smatel]

 

And that is why I did it - each of us can make up our own minds based on some small bit of real evidence, as imprecise as it is. Some people are hearing a difference here, some I guess are not. These are the same strings on the same guitars done on the same day. There might be some subtle effect of retuning them (slackening and restretching), except that because of the slotted bridge the strings weren't even removed.

 

 

I might be way behind the curve here, but has anyone suggested comparing waveforms? Send the signal to a sequencer and see if there is a measurable difference?

[Freeman Keller]

 

I might be way behind the curve here, but has anyone suggested comparing waveforms? Send the signal to a sequencer and see if there is a measurable difference?

 

 

You can do a very simplified version, at least with respect to sustain. Audiacity will create a magnitude vs time wayform for each one of those note - you can actually measure the amount of time it takes to decay. Or open two Audiacity windows side by side and look at the waveforms. I tried to capture them as jpegs or something that I could post to the hosting site so we could compare and discuss, but it wasn't intuitively obvious how to do it.

[Verence]

The Yamaha links say that they've been removed.

[Queequeg]

ah, the legendary lost scrolls...

someday soon there will be those who 'claim' they heard them, but others will be skeptical if indeed these mp3 pin test recordings ever existed @ all.

"The DOD is denying it, sir."

"Swamp gas, that's all it was."

"What are you going to believe; your own lying ears?"

[Krash]

 

I tried to capture them as jpegs or something that I could post to the hosting site so we could compare and discuss, but it wasn't intuitively obvious how to do it.

 

 

Try doing a screen cap (Print Scrn) and dumping it into a graphics app (Shift + Insert). Would be interesting to see.

[rkyochim]

Aside from the obvious fact that there are way too many independant variables in your experiment, I have one comment. An SM57 does not even come close to capturing the frequency range of an acoustic guitar. Try your test with the same guitar/different pins into a good condenser mic and you might have a semi-scientific comparison!!!:

[Queequeg]

 

Aside from the obvious fact that there are way too many independant variables in your experiment, I have one comment. An SM57 does not even come close to capturing the frequency range of an acoustic guitar. Try your test with the same guitar/different pins into a good condenser mic and you might have a semi-scientific comparison!!!:

 

Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments, Mr Wizard.

Most of us here were grateful for the work Freeman put into this project, and the results. He's an engineer and he acknowledged that it wasn't going to be perfect.

So, go ahead and knock yourself out and post a better one for us.

We anxiously await your critical test, which we know will be entirely above reproach.

[rkyochim]

Sorry if I offended anyone. I assumed all reasonable opinions were ok to share. Please guide me if otherwise. Thanks!