Some updated thoughts on the music biz gurus

[richardmac]

I've transitioned from an original artist who played to 2 people in an empty coffee house to solo cover band guy who charges $50 an hour and advertises on Google. I have become the guy I would have made fun of when I was 21. Then again, when I was 21 I didn't know {censored} about life. Still slipping those original songs in, though. And I'm having a blast because I love to perform music.

 

ANYWAY, it's been months since I read or even cared what the "new music biz gurus" are saying. I decided this morning to tune back in and see how the message has changed since last year....

 

Nope, no change. More of the same. Worse, actually. Building your tribe, making sure your newsletter is full of interesting things, hiring someone to build an iPhone app for you, all that stuff. I mean, I've come to admit that I'm not part of the hip culture and don't understand parts of it, but this whole premise that there's a group of people out there who want to follow you and learn everything they can about you and keep up with what you're doing... it's just not true, based on what I see. What I see is that you have absolutely no control over any of that stuff. You can't create a tribe. You can't make people be interested in you. You can't force people to email you.

 

In order for all of that to happen, your music has to be absolutely brilliant, and it isn't. Don't worry - neither is mine.

 

Here's what you are competing with. I am a newly converted Spotify fan. You know what I was listening to yesterday? For the first time? Steve Earle's first album. You're gonna tell me your stuff is as good as that? Ha ha ha ha ha ha! No it isn't! That's the competition. The entire history of recorded music.

 

There's nothing wrong with writing your own music - I love doing it. And you can put it on a CD, sell it, perform it, whatever you want. But when you start talking about making a career out of it, you need a serious reality check, unless your music is just THAT good. And you're not the one to judge that. Hell, it might even BE that good but no one is interested in paying attention. It's not fair and that doesn't matter. If you have a song inside you, sing it. Don't worry about how much money you're making. Have fun with it. It's supposed to be fun.

 

But unfortunately there's a whole collection of dream merchants who ARE still making a living by telling people to build their tribes and follow their dreams. It's all here in my 56 page ebook. Just $29.99. Balls.

[daddymack]

It's all here in my 56 page ebook. Just $29.99. Balls.

can I dl that to my Kindle?

[3shiftgtr]

I have become the guy I would have made fun of when I was 21. Then again, when I was 21 I didn't know {censored} about life. Still slipping those original songs in, though. And I'm having a blast because I love to perform music.

 

 

 

What I see is that you have absolutely no control over any of that stuff. You can't create a tribe. You can't make people be interested in you.

 

I have said it around these parts many times. Make the art cuz you have to, then sell the hell out of said art. The rest will take care of itself. You can only hope to FIND the people who will like it. You aren't in control of people's taste.

 

I agree Richard, you can't MAKE anyone like your {censored}. One can only try to present it to folks who MIGHT like it. It is the best bet cuz that is all one can do if one wants to have any kind of honesty in their art. And even if someone wants to be 100% audience focused and deliver what 'the people' want, you will still be leaving people out, so all you STILL can do is sell it to folks who may like it.

 

Or not.

 

But unfortunately there's a whole collection of dream merchants who ARE still making a living by telling people to build their tribes and follow their dreams. It's all here in my 56 page ebook. Just $29.99. Balls.

 

I'll just send you a check and you fill in the amount.

[Poker99]

 

There's nothing wrong with writing your own music - I love doing it. And you can put it on a CD, sell it, perform it, whatever you want. But when you start talking about making a career out of it, you need a serious reality check, unless your music is just THAT good.

 

 

It doesn't have to be that good. Just listent to what's topping the charts right now... There is a bunch of crap out there that sells. It has to be marketed well, at the right place, at the right time, for the right people.

 

You need a good PRODUCT, first and foremost.

[daddymack]

It doesn't have to be that good. Just listent to what's topping the charts right now... There is a bunch of crap out there that sells. It has to be marketed well, at the right place, at the right time, for the right people. You need a good PRODUCT, first and foremost.

you contradicted yourself, there Poker...

crap out there that sells vs good PRODUCT

 

the sad fact is that if you have a major marketing budget these days, you can pretty much sell anything, and make money.

For the independent folks like us, not only do you need outstanding product, but you need to get it in front of as many people as you can as often as you can. Today, most unfortunately, this ultimately winds up meaning playing for free just to get heard, and putting your material up on the web (a la youtube), and hoping it gets seen. When one looks at how many people are doing pretty much exactly this, that seems like pretty long odds, but the alternatves bear even less fruit.

[fatusstratus]

I have become the guy I would have made fun of when I was 21.

 

Well, you can at least take comfort in that this would be music or not!

 

That and we often laugh at our selves that aren't "temporally" here, it's not just a 21 thing...

 

Then again, when I was 21 I didn't know {censored} about life.

 

 

[shades990]

It doesn't have to be that good. Just listent to what's topping the charts right now... There is a bunch of crap out there that sells. It has to be marketed well, at the right place, at the right time, for the right people. You need a good PRODUCT, first and foremost.

There's a lot of catchy crap with excellent composition and production, and perhaps most relevant to the current scene, killer beats. Even though the lyrics are straightforward/cliche and somewhat mindless, they take hold easier than the whole "My inside is midnight, my mouth is breathing insanity through a veil of infortitude, choking my world" hard rock getup and the "Splashes of color, we are the generation, mystify your starlight eyes" indie gig.

[playlikedanko]

"I don't build in order to have clients. I have clients in order to build." -- Ayn Rand

[sventvkg]

I will say my publisher gets excited about my radio format stuff and those idiots don't want anything really good. We have a saying here if you have Steve Earle-esque stuff or just really good stuff...It's too good for radio and from what I've seen here, that's true. I hear brilliant Steve Earle level stuff everynight out...In fact I heard it tonight and no one is cutting that. So yea, if you want to be an artist it's about great tunes or at least tunes that people can relate too and you need to tour, sell records, and hope people are drawn to your total package. This is the toughest I have ever heard of this business being....

 

Side note...I had a girl who's an intern at my publisher's office book my buddy and I for a show last week. Well, my buddy did. Anyway, I asked her since she had the lady's name number etc if she could hook me up for a solo show..She tells me, Just to be real, " I GET PAID FOR MY WORK"...So I told her I am capable of booking myself but since she had the lady's name and info and we had just played there I thought she could give her a buzz..No {censored}ing problem, just give me the info...and I said, "Incidentally it seems like the only people who are not supposed to expect to get paid are the artists themselves eh?" Haven't heard from the little bitch since. There it is..She's wants to be in the "music business" and she is interning with a publisher while in school but she needs to get paid even though she KNOWS none of us do!!!! That says it all about the Music Biz right there....

[sventvkg]

Richard...

 

Valid points..To be honest I see and hear people EVERY NIGHT that are brilliant. I'm totally serious about that and I can't for the life of me see how they are gonna make it. Even the few who get out there, kill themselves touring etc..Even some I know who have been doing it for years, and have a few sync's in TV/movies, etc..I've had a few pretty well known singer songwriters on the indie circuit tell me that after expenses, travel, lodging etc, they MIGHT clear $50K a year and they are gone 9-10 months of the year.....No {censored}ing way I'm doing that...You MIGHT hit the lottery and get lucky with mainstream success but you will spent at least 10 years broke as {censored} killing yourself 300 shows a year while you're developing and waiting for that break. Sure, there are a handful of artists who break luckily without having to do all that but I doubt you'll be one of the 5 I can think of. Zac Brown spent 10 years building and he's seriously {censored}ing good!! Thankfully he and his family had money and they sunk A LOT OF IT into building that organization up. This is well known but not publicized.

 

Anyway, I do have those "WTF am I doing this for?" moments but in the end, I did what you are doing now, for 20 years and I was MISERABLE!!!!! So i'm doing this Nashville thing to see if I can turn this songwriting thing into something, then producing then developing talent, publishing etc..NOT going the artist route. If it all goes to {censored} in 10 years if the Lord blesses me with my health, I'll cut out of here and go somewhere warm in winter where I can play my guitar on the beach and then Alaska or somewhere nice in Summer to play guitar and and just have fun. I'll do what you do, play my stuff and covers I dig If it comes full circle so be it!! I know i'm moving abroad though at that point. If I can turn this into something here in Nashville I'll probably still do the same thing as I just said at some point but it might be in a little more style with my own boat I'll be happy either way honestly because at least I could say I came here and tried, ya know?

[Surrealistic]

Richard... Valid points..To be honest I see and hear people EVERY NIGHT that are brilliant. I'm totally serious about that

Ditto. I really don't think it's much to do with how brilliant you are. Obviously it makes a difference BUT I don't think the reason most of us won't "make it" (however you define that term) is primarily because of the level of talent. There are plenty of good musicians around these parts including a few who'd stand comparison with pretty much anyone.

[Poker99]

you contradicted yourself, there Poker... crap out there that sells vs good PRODUCT the sad fact is that if you have a major marketing budget these days, you can pretty much sell anything, and make money. For the independent folks like us, not only do you need outstanding product, but you need to get it in front of as many people as you can as often as you can. Today, most unfortunately, this ultimately winds up meaning playing for free just to get heard, and putting your material up on the web ( a la youtube), and hoping it gets seen. When one looks at how many people are doing pretty much exactly this, that seems like pretty long odds, but the alternatves bear even less fruit.

 

No I didn't!

 

Richard was talking about amazing music. I was talking about PRODUCT. Music is just a part of it.

[shades990]

 

Ditto. I really don't think it's much to do with how brilliant you are. Obviously it makes a difference BUT I don't think the reason most of us won't "make it" (however you define that term) is primarily because of the level of talent. There are plenty of good musicians around these parts including a few who'd stand comparison with pretty much anyone.

Brilliant, how? Yes, there are many, many proficient musicians -- that is, there is no shortage of musicians who can play and sing note-for-note and tight in rhythm -- but how many actually write good songs? Scratch that, not just good songs, but GREAT songs?

 

The writers who hang out behind the scenes aren't sold to the public as some 'full package' that can sing and dance and make a sex tape. They write damn good songs. They write songs that don't leave your head. I can think of any number of songs right now that are on the radio right now and repeat the melodies for you. But you know what? The vast majority of those songs don't come out of nowhere, take hold of me and refuse to let go for days on end. It takes a certain kind of song to do that.

[BlueStrat]

 

Ditto. I really don't think it's much to do with how brilliant you are. Obviously it makes a difference BUT I don't think the reason most of us won't "make it" (however you define that term) is primarily because of the level of talent. There are plenty of good musicians around these parts including a few who'd stand comparison with pretty much anyone.

 

 

Yep. One big reason most people won't make it is because the old way, where there were people to take over for you once you reached a certain level, is all but gone. Now, an artist has to practically do everything themselves- and in between writing, rehearsing, performing, traveling, working day jobs, promoting, booking, and everyday life, who has time to do it? And even if you did, who has all the knowledge required to do it regarding publishing, booking, distribution, setting up national tours, bundling with other bands, etc etc etc? It would be a daunting task for a highly knowledgeable full timer. For most average musicians, who have neither the time nor the knowledge, they get stuck in one place or at one level and remain there, no matter how good or brilliant they are. I can take you to a dozen little towns in Montana and Idaho and eastern Washington and show you some players and singers that would blow your mind and that no one will ever hear of. I'm sure it's that way everywhere.

[BlueStrat]

 

But you know what? The vast majority of those songs don't come out of nowhere, take hold of me and refuse to let go for days on end. It takes a certain kind of song to do that.

 

 

Or endless repetition on a limited rotation format on radio/TV. I once had "the Macarena"stuck in my head for 2 days. Is that a great and brilliant song, or just an annoying ear worm?

[shades990]

Or endless repetition on a limited rotation format on radio/TV. I once had "the Macarena"stuck in my head for 2 days. Is that a great and brilliant song, or just an annoying ear worm?

It depends on how you define great and brilliant. I would say it is great and brilliant. It vibes and it has several hooks that 'flow' together. Clearly a lot of people thought it was great and brilliant, because it went 4x platinum. I don't know about you, but I'm not going to go out and buy something if it's just plain annoying without any good qualities, and I don't think most people would, either.

[Surrealistic]

Brilliant, how? Yes, there are many, many proficient musicians -- that is, there is no shortage of musicians who can play and sing note-for-note and tight in rhythm -- but how many actually write good songs? Scratch that, not just good songs, but GREAT songs?

I'm talking about songwriters primarily, and yes, I know some who've written some great songs.

[Poker99]

 

Brilliant, how? Yes, there are many, many proficient musicians -- that is, there is no shortage of musicians who can play and sing note-for-note and tight in rhythm -- but how many actually write good songs? Scratch that, not just good songs, but GREAT songs? The writers who hang out behind the scenes aren't sold to the public as some 'full package' that can sing and dance and make a sex tape. They write damn good songs. They write songs that don't leave your head. I can think of any number of songs right now that are on the radio right now and repeat the melodies for you. But you know what? The vast majority of those songs don't come out of nowhere, take hold of me and refuse to let go for days on end. It takes a certain kind of song to do that.

 

 

You make it sounds like its extremely difficult to write a hook. I don't think it is... Not talking about classics that last of course!!! But great musicians who can write radio hits are a dime a dozen - but it won't get them far if they are not attached to a good PRODUCT at the right place at the right time in front of the right people (thanks Blue).

 

That's why they put the cute teen in front of the cameras while the ugly dude is writing cheesy pop songs for her in his studio...

[Matximus]

 

Here's what you are competing with. I am a newly converted Spotify fan. You know what I was listening to yesterday? For the first time? Steve Earle's first album. You're gonna tell me your stuff is as good as that? Ha ha ha ha ha ha! No it isn't! That's the competition. The entire history of recorded music.

 

 

Yeah... I hear that...The internet is astonishing - in last couple day's I just discovered Conway Twitty's It's Only Make Believe, Chordette's Born to Be With You, Teddy Bear's to Know HIm is to Love Him, Lonnie Donegan's Rock Island Line, Billy Fury's Wondrous Place and the Songs' Our Daddy Taught Us Record by the Everly's... each and every one is so heart-smashingly brilliant it leaves me punch-drunk and cross-eyed. ...

 

I come up for air injot modern music, tried to sit through that Panda Bear album, the new FLeet Foxes, and Bon Iver's second go around... The stuff that is supposed to be great this year... it all sounded like whining of sexless limp-wristed drone machines who can't hit seem to hit a clean note or come up with a melody....

 

I mean, it's just gotten tremendously tough to get casual consumers and hardcore fans to exchange money for live and recorded musical entertainment - both groups have easy access to plentiful free and cheap sounds. Casual fans simply swap iPods and whatnot and your hardcore fans are all over BTjunkie or Mediafire or whatever digging up long lost Stax or Decca B-Sides or whatever... forget about it - trying to get money for records.

 

And in live performing: You know what people want to hear? Dance music. Stop woodshedding and go buy some turntables if you want to rock a crowd.

[shades990]

You make it sounds like its extremely difficult to write a hook. I don't think it is... Not talking about classics that last of course!!! But great musicians who can write radio hits are a dime a dozen - but it won't get them far if they are not attached to a good PRODUCT at the right place at the right time in front of the right people (thanks Blue). That's why they put the cute teen in front of the cameras while the ugly dude is writing cheesy pop songs for her in his studio...

Of course it is no grand task to write a hook, which is typically the basis of a good song. Fleet Foxes have some 'good' songs, but nothing great. Poison the Well had some 'good' songs, which I enjoyed in high school, but nothing 'great' -- simply no sticking power. Do the cheesy pop songs become hits? Sometimes, yes. But do they make a lasting impact on people? Do they wow people enough to where that artist is going to get even more hits and start to build a large return on investment? Are the 'cheesy' pop songs that absolutely EXPLODE and make careers always properly deemed 'cheesy'? I don't think so. Jackson 5's songs and the Beatles' early songs involved generic subject matter, but they weren't cheesy -- they were involving. The production of 'Baby one more time' may well have been cheesy, but the song itself was admittedly riveting and masterfully composed.

[sventvkg]

What happened to you man? You've become just like us in less than a couple of months lol No I didn't! Richard was talking about amazing music . I was talking about PRODUCT. Music is just a part of it.

 

I was always real about the music business man..I'm NOT like you in that i'm here, I'm writing songs and trying to get to the next level which for me is producer, publisher, label owner. NOT on an artist track. People are still going to listen to music and there WILL be some sort of a music business when everything shakes out. If you think otherwise you're crazy. I know the deal bro, so never think I do not. I know it's a gamble.. I'd rather take my chances here that I can make something for the future rather than get some other job because I'm no good at anything else besides music and I can't work for anyone really:) I'm crapping out or winning in this town. Either way.

[Poker99]

...while I am no fan of those artists, it is unreasonable to say they cannot do either of those things. They do both of those things -- they just aren't memorable.Of course it is no grand task to write a hook, which is typically the basis of a good song. Fleet Foxes have some 'good' songs, but nothing great. Poison the Well had some 'good' songs, which I enjoyed in high school, but nothing 'great' -- simply no sticking power. Do the cheesy pop songs become hits? Sometimes, yes. But do they make a lasting impact on people? Do they wow people enough to where that artist is going to get even more hits and start to build a large return on investment? Are the 'cheesy' pop songs that absolutely EXPLODE and make careers always properly deemed 'cheesy'? I don't think so. Jackson 5's songs and the Beatles' early songs involved generic subject matter, but they weren't cheesy -- they were involving. The production of 'Baby one more time' may well have been cheesy, but the song itself was admittedly riveting and masterfully composed.

 

You are talking about classics man... Most of the stuff that is popular now won't be remembered in 6 months.

 

By the way, Britney was a great PRODUCT.

[daddymack]

Britney was a great PRODUCT.

'was' being the operant term...

[Matximus]

 

Yep. One big reason most people won't make it is because the old way, where there were people to take over for you once you reached a certain level, is all but gone. Now, an artist has to practically do everything themselves- and in between writing, rehearsing, performing, traveling, working day jobs, promoting, booking, and everyday life, who has time to do it? And even if you did, who has all the knowledge required to do it regarding publishing, booking, distribution, setting up national tours, bundling with other bands, etc etc etc? It would be a daunting task for a highly knowledgeable full timer. For most average musicians, who have neither the time nor the knowledge, they get stuck in one place or at one level and remain there, no matter how good or brilliant they are. I can take you to a dozen little towns in Montana and Idaho and eastern Washington and show you some players and singers that would blow your mind and that no one will ever hear of. I'm sure it's that way everywhere.

 

 

I do think this is an interesting development. For a while there was a window for a broad slice of people who could get by and get far based on their pure musical acument. I think being business minded has always been important. But today's environment is whittling out more and more of those that don't have a strong entrepreneurial streak. But I think it's false to assume that an artist having to be deft at attending to real-world business responsibilities is a detriment to their art. Many, many great musicians were kick ass business people - it's how a lot of the early greats came up, on the strength of their business chops and ambitions. Early R&B & Soul was famous for it - from Sam Cooke to James Brown and Ike Turner.

[richardmac]

 

Richard... Valid points..To be honest I see and hear people EVERY NIGHT that are brilliant.

 

 

If you were to send me a web address where I could hear one of these guys who is "just as good as Steve Earle," I'd be willing to bet money ahead of time that I would not agree. I'd probably also tell you that I don't think they're brilliant. If they are, I want to hear them because I'm always interested in hearing a great artist.

 

Because here's the truth of the matter... 8 years ago I would have heard Steve Earle and said he was good but not brilliant. And here is what I think confuses the whole entire matter... I think there's a certain level of songwriting that is called good. And perhaps what makes a good song great is that it connects with the listener who thinks it's great. So I might think something is great that you might think is merely good, or other way around.

 

In other words, maybe there are no great songs... just a big collection of good songs and some of those good songs connect with some people and not others. It's certainly true of bands. I have heard for years how brilliant Nirvana was, yet I don't own any of their music because it bores me and I don't like it. You can name almost any "great" song and there will be people who think it sucks. Trying to judge art is pointless because we end up in discussions like this.

 

So where does that leave us? As artists, I think we just want to make the best art we can. When I write a song, I'm trying to write the best song I can. As a performer, when I perform I try to do the best job I can on the song.

 

So what would be that "brilliant" artist writing "great" music that I'm talking about? In reality, it would be someone who is writing good music that for whatever reason strikes a chord with a large number of people who hear it. Good songs are a dime a dozen. A good songwriter is, as you implied, pretty damn easy to find. People want to connect with the song and the artist.

 

Eh. This is dog chasing tail stuff. I had just wanted to point out that even though it isn't working, the dream merchants are still peddling their same old horse{censored}.