Can we talk about harmony theory

[Walters9515]

Where do i go to talk about harmony theory or is this

it because its says Arranging ?

 

I have alot of classical theory questions where do i go for

harmony questions please?

[geek_usa]

 

Originally posted by Walters9515 I have alot of classical theory questions where do i go for harmony questions please?

 

 

 

Your inner entity.

[TonyCrazyMan]

When you think about harmonies, think about steps. Draw a Nashville diagram of the song so that you know which harmonies to choose. I think you need to focus much on how to resolve harmonies in the end into something beautiful sounding. Work on this. First of all learn how to play different harmonies. Secondly, learn what harmonies work on different steps and at last learn which combinations of harmonies are beautiful over a certain step combination. This way you will end up with very good sounding arrangements, especially when combined with harmonies on keyboards, guitars and background vocals.

[alcohol]

buy the book "Intervals, Scales and Chords" by Clough. It's a programmed learning book that's equivalent to one year of college music theory.

[wooden]

Originally posted by alcohol buy the book "Intervals, Scales and Chords" by Clough. It's a programmed learning book that's equivalent to one year of college music theory.

 

In the mean time try to get an article on the net about intervals and how they relate to chords, and scales. I couldnt understand chord harmony until I had a little instruction on intervals.

[Picker]

you might try asking in "The Lesson Loft" under the Guitar forums.

[bjorked]

This is probably not the place to ask about theory but... shoot me some specific questions and I'll see what I can do. I've studied theory a great deal - and have a degree in performance. BTW a GREAT reference on harmony is "Twentieth - Century Harmony" by Persichetti, although this is not a book for beginners.

 

 

 

mike

[Walters9515]

Double leading Tone questions:

 

When is a double leading tone used ?

 

Why does doubling the leading tone do ?

 

How do i resolve a Double leading tone?

 

9th,11th,13th chords questions:

 

Whats the difference how Classical uses the 9th,11th,13th chords and how Jazz uses the 9th,11th,13th chords?

 

How does Classical use the 9th,11th,13th chords?

 

How does Jazz use the 9th,11th,13th chords?

 

9th 11th and 13th notes/degrees are these Leading tones?

 

Why are the 9th 11th and 13th notes/degrees Color tones?

 

9th 11th and 13th notes/degrees are Tension tones?

[The Chinese]

 

Originally posted by Walters9515 Double leading Tone questions: When is a double leading tone used ? Why does doubling the leading tone do ? How do i resolve a Double leading tone? 9th,11th,13th chords questions: Whats the difference how Classical uses the 9th,11th,13th chords and how Jazz uses the 9th,11th,13th chords? How does Classical use the 9th,11th,13th chords? How does Jazz use the 9th,11th,13th chords? 9th 11th and 13th notes/degrees are these Leading tones? Why are the 9th 11th and 13th notes/degrees Color tones? 9th 11th and 13th notes/degrees are Tension tones?

 

 

 

OK,...

 

 

A) Narrow your question down a bit....When you say "Classical", do you mean Baroque (think Bach), Romantic (Chopin), Classical (mozart), or Modern (Wagner, Stravinsky)? each period has distinct ways that Upper extensions are used within the context of music, but especially going back to the baroque period, where using a Parallel 5th could get you executed...

 

B) As for leading tones- You're merely speaking of any tone that "pulls" and wants to resolve to a specific note. an example would be the 3rd of a V Chord resolving to the Tonic. However, leading tones are not limited to These type of obvious resolutions...take for example an Italian 6th chord from the classical period...It sounds just like a dominant 7th, however since it's built on the b6 off the key, it actually resoves up....

 

As for jazz, the leading tones are often interlinked to give a single note line an impression of the harmony that lies beneath it. A great example of this is actually "Giant Steps" by Coltrane. His knowledge of leading tones and chord tones is so impressive it actually sounds like he's taking a free solo, when in reality, he is stating the harmony beneath. An easier example is "Maria" from West Side Story..the opening three notes in the melody are an example of a leading tone.

 

 

 

Hope this helps,

 

-Todd A.

[Walters9515]

Thanks for the information

 

Baroque (think Bach), Romantic (Chopin), Classical (mozart), or Modern (Wagner, Stravinsky)? each period has distinct ways that Upper extensions

 

how did they Baroque period use the 9th,11th,13th chords or tones?

 

how did they Romantic period use the 9th,11th,13th chords or tones?

 

how did they Classical period use the 9th,11th,13th chords or tones?

 

how did they Modern period use the 9th,11th,13th chords or tones?

[bjorked]

 

Originally posted by The Chinese A) When you say "Classical", do you mean Baroque (think Bach), Romantic (Chopin), Classical (mozart), or Modern (Wagner, Stravinsky)? each period has distinct ways that Upper extensions are used within the context of music, but especially going back to the baroque period, where using a Parallel 5th could get you executed...

 

 

This is a VERY important point - as every period has it's own style and "rules."

 

As for doubling the leading tone - This is against the "rules" in most four part harmony. The leading tone is a tendency tone and must resolve up by step (free resolution of this tone is not usually used).

 

As far as when 9th, 11th, and 13th extensions are used and in what period.... You must understand that in early periods i.e. the rennaissance and baroque periods harmony was not thought of in the same way as it is now and therefore these chord extensions would occur only if they were a part of the melody. In the Baroque era, specifically, composers would write just "figured bass" and the melody - the harmony was only implied and would be up to the performer to "fill in." Although these extensions were not thought of an extensions as of yet, chromaticism and dissonance were freely employed in this time for expressive purposes.

 

In the classical period harmony is relatively simple, utilizing primary chords, their inversions, and various seventh chords. This style is mostly homophonic - meaning there is one dominant melody supported by harmony. There is also a use of the relative major in terms of harmony IF the key is minor.

 

The romantic period begins to play a bit with nonharmonic tones and altered chords. In terms of extensions - there was extensive use of 9th and 13th chords in order to build harmonic tension and weaken the sense of a tonal center. Actually, almost all the characteristics of harmony during this period show a gradual disintegration of the major - minor system by using fused major and minor modes that chords would be chosen from.

Chromaticism in the melody also helped to create harmonic tension.

 

The harmony of the 20th century was MUCH more dissonant although in the early part of this century it almost always resolved. This often led to the use of extension tones to do nothing more than make music less ordinary or consonant. You should also remember that not all of the music of the 20th century is TONAL. In that which was tonal much of the "rules" of music theory is thrown away and this eventually leads to the music of Berg and Webern who write ATONAL music using the implementation of tone rows or matrices.

 

As far as Jazz goes - this is an entirely different can of worms and my specialty / true love and if I started to write about it I wouldn't stop! If you have any specific questions let me know.

 

In terms of specific use of the extension tones in these periods nothing will replace good old analyzation of the scores. This is the only way IMO to truely get the sense of how harmony was used in later periods.

 

It's also important to consider that as with all art, rules are meant to be broken and as time progressed we see just that. But don't let that keep you from learning the "rules" of the artform. IMO you can't break the rules until you know what they are...

 

hope this helps you out a bit

 

mike

[Walters9515]

Thanks alot mike for talking to me about this stuff

 

9th,11th,13th seems like classical composers just used them

as non-harmonic tones like passing tones, Neighboring tones,Suspensions,Retardations,Anticipation,Appogitura,Escaped tone, Pedal tone or Secondary dominates V9 ,V11 mostly i see in classical

 

In Jazz they used the 9th,11th,13th as Tension chords,Color chords,Extension chords

 

How do you think Jazz used 9th,11th,13th chords?

[bjorked]

 

Originally posted by Walters9515 In Jazz they used the 9th,11th,13th as Tension chords,Color chords,Extension chords How do you think Jazz used 9th,11th,13th chords?

 

 

You sort of answered your own question as to why chords are altered (mainly just to make the harmony more interesting) - but certain alterations are common in certain chords.

 

Major and Dominant Alterations are: b5, #5, 9, b9, #11, b13

Minor: b5, 9, 11, 13

 

but be careful - some of these alterations change the chord's "quality" i.e. minor 7 w/ the 5 flatted results in a half diminished chord.

[Walters9515]

Major and Dominant Alterations are: b5, #5, 9, b9, #11, b13

Minor: b5, 9, 11, 13

 

Jazz mostly used these Alterations did they get these chromatic alterations from Borrowing from different Modes?

 

Jazz most play in Dorian,Phygian,Lydian,Mixolydian,Aeolian,Locian

they must have got these Alterations from there modes?

[geekgurl]

 

Originally posted by Walters9515 Major and Dominant Alterations are: b5, #5, 9, b9, #11, b13 Minor: b5, 9, 11, 13 Jazz mostly used these Alterations did they get these chromatic alterations from Borrowing from different Modes? Jazz most play in Dorian,Phygian,Lydian,Mixolydian,Aeolian,Locian they must have got these Alterations from there modes?

 

 

Not necessarily. In fact, some alterations are not within the basic diatonic scale (on which even the modes you mentioned are based). There are others, like b9 in a locrian scale (though sometimes players don't flat the 9) that are not included in your classifications above (because locrian is often played over minor chords and it has a flat 9).

 

There are scales one can play to include these non-diatonic alterations (whole tone, diminished, altered diminished) ... is this what you mean by "borrowing from different modes"? Then I guess the question could be "no, not necessarily modes, but yes, the extensions are found in other scales" ... but then it becomes a question of "which came first, chicken or the egg?" Which came first, the altered scale or the altered chord extensions? I'm no music historian so I really couldn't tell you.

 

So are you playing any jazz now? Are you interested in these details for a particular reason? Might help other forum members answer your questions to know a bit about your goals.

[bjorked]

 

Originally posted by Walters9515 Jazz most play in Dorian,Phygian,Lydian,Mixolydian,Aeolian,Locian they must have got these Alterations from there modes?

 

 

You just named all the modes here, except Ionian (Major). All Western music is going to come from either one of these modes or a combo of 2 or more of these.

 

I think you are thinking of music too mathmatically. Although music theory is all math, Music on the other hand is a creative art. Most of what exists is because of the way it SOUNDS not the way it LOOKS on paper.

 

The extensions or alterations of chords exist because of what works and sounds right in relation to the jazz vocabulary.

 

I suggest you invest in a book about the history of music styles and how they relate to theory. There is no substitute for educating yourself - it may also put all of this more into perspective. Maybe you could even take a Music Fundamentals or General Music History course at a local community college - This would greatly help you.