Acoustic/dobro recording

[Bluewater]

I'm looking for mic and compressor setup to capture acoustic guitar, dobro, and mandolin (one at a time). Seems small diameter condensor is the way to go, so I'm considering the AT 4051. I've also heard the Neumann KM184 is a great mike, but is a few hundred $$ more. I've also heard that stereo pairs are much better than a single mic. Questions:

 

1) Any thought on whether the Neumann is worth the extra dough?

 

2) Will stereo micing dramatically improve sound quality?

 

3) If so, will my AT 3035 work as the second mic, even though it's a large condensor?

 

4) For those of you experienced with FMR, would you use the RNC or RNLA to get a full, warm, in-your-face acoustic track?

 

Thanks.

[seaneldon]

i'm not a huge fan of the km184, or km1__ for that matter. i think my opinion is shared by a couple other folks here, too. in it's place, i'd reccomend a Microtech Gefell M300 for about $20 more, which is actually really similar to the KM84, a more desireable sounding microphone than the KM184, which has a way-too-harsh top for my ears. i've also gotten some good results with the AKG C451, thanks to a high frequency response that has more "sparkle" than the KM184's "annoying pierce".

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by Bluewater I'm looking for mic and compressor setup to capture acoustic guitar, dobro, and mandolin (one at a time). Seems small diameter condensor is the way to go, so I'm considering the AT 4051. I've also heard the Neumann KM184 is a great mike, but is a few hundred $$ more. I've also heard that stereo pairs are much better than a single mic. Questions: 1) Any thought on whether the Neumann is worth the extra dough? Like Sean, I'm not a big fan of the KM184. I'd rather have the AT 4051 or a pair of 4041's, or a Beyer M160 or the MG M300 or... you get the idea. BTW, I generally like ribbons on dobro. They tend to tame some of the peaky top end and warm it up a bit. 2) Will stereo micing dramatically improve sound quality? Stereo isn't going to really improve the sound quality , but it does open up some options. 3) If so, will my AT 3035 work as the second mic, even though it's a large condensor? It might. I have not used the 3035, but I've been known to use dissimilar mics on acoustics before... such as a 251 on the bridge side and a 414 on the neck side... but don't tell anyone or I might get into trouble. 4) For those of you experienced with FMR, would you use the RNC or RNLA to get a full, warm, in-your-face acoustic track? I've been experimenting with both FMR comps a lot lately, and the RNLA is WONDERFUL on acoustic guitars. Thanks. You're welcome.

[Bluewater]

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe

 

Well, thanks again Phil, but of course there's one last question:

 

One 4051 or two 4041s?

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

Personally? I'd opt for the two 4041's.

[MarkGifford-1]

I've gotten some great sounds w/a R-121 on the body and a 184 on the neck of an acoustic guitar. Beautiful balance of wood and air.

 

An SM-58 works startlingly well on a Dobro.

 

Haven't done a lot of mandolin, but a SDC would probably do the trick, as mandolins are all about the transients.

 

As far as stereo goes, it depends on whether it's solo acoustic or it's going into a busier track.

 

If it's traditional country/bluegrass, I wouldn't compress at all, going in. I'd try to invest in a Hardy or Millennia pre instead.

 

MG

[Bluewater]

Thanks guys:thu:

[UstadKhanAli]

i'd rather have the ATs and save the extra money from the Neumann.

 

I own two AT4051s and absolutely love them. They have interchangeable capsules and sound slightly fuller than the AT4041s from what I have been told (I've never personally recorded with the AT4041s but have heard very good results from other people who have recorded with them). My AT4051s are also modified, so take that into consideration. I don't know whether I'd want one AT4051 or two AT4041s.

 

If I were looking for another set of mics to do what you are looking for, I'd probably look into the Earthworks, which always sound intriguing to me.

 

You can use dissimilar mics and see what it sounds like. If you are simply using two mics to capture the instrument and not specifically trying to recreate the stereo soundfield, I think you can do this. The final proof is in what it sounds like. For micing amps, I frequently use two dissimilar mics (a dynamic up close and an LDC 3'4' away) and get great results. It's not stereo, but that's not what I'm going for.

 

Stereo micing: I sometimes will record an acoustic guitar with just one mic. It depends on the song. If the acoustic guitar is the dominant instrument, I usually use two AT4051s in x-y 2-3' in front of the guitar (distance depending on guitar, player, song, sound, alignment of the moon and stars, and atmospheric conditions - sometimes I mic only 1' away, sometimes 4' away - who knows?). If it's a supporting guitar part in a track that has many other instruments, I will usually go for one AT4051, micing it where the neck meets the body, and then move it closer or farther depending on the needs of the song.

 

I've typically been using RNPs for the mic preamps if I want a clean sound, and my Peavey VMP-2 if I want a warmer, slightly "gooey" sort of sound. Yes, "gooey" is a very technical recording term! However, I just got a Neve Portico, and that's going to be my new acoustic guitar preamp. Clean, it just sounds absolutely gorgeous and slightly more musical than the RNP; in Silk Mode, it's has more girth on the bottom end, the top end is not as sharp but is really really clear still, and also sounds gorgeous. Which one is right? Depends on the song, the emotion you're trying to capture...

 

I use RNC compressors frequently, but do not have the RNLA. My *guess* is that if you are looking for, as you say, "warm, in your face acoustic guitars", the RNLA would probably be the thing to go for. But again, this is a guess.

[Bluewater]

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli i'd rather have the ATs and save the extra money from the Neumann. I own two AT4051s and absolutely love them. They have interchangeable capsules and sound slightly fuller than the AT4041s from what I have been told (I've never personally recorded with the AT4041s but have heard very good results from other people who have recorded with them). My AT4051s are also modified, so take that into consideration. I don't know whether I'd want one AT4051 or two AT4041s. If I were looking for another set of mics to do what you are looking for, I'd probably look into the Earthworks, which always sound intriguing to me. You can use dissimilar mics and see what it sounds like. If you are simply using two mics to capture the instrument and not specifically trying to recreate the stereo soundfield, I think you can do this. The final proof is in what it sounds like. For micing amps, I frequently use two dissimilar mics (a dynamic up close and an LDC 3'4' away) and get great results. It's not stereo, but that's not what I'm going for. Stereo micing: I sometimes will record an acoustic guitar with just one mic. It depends on the song. If the acoustic guitar is the dominant instrument, I usually use two AT4051s in x-y 2-3' in front of the guitar (distance depending on guitar, player, song, sound, alignment of the moon and stars, and atmospheric conditions - sometimes I mic only 1' away, sometimes 4' away - who knows?). If it's a supporting guitar part in a track that has many other instruments, I will usually go for one AT4051, micing it where the neck meets the body, and then move it closer or farther depending on the needs of the song. I've typically been using RNPs for the mic preamps if I want a clean sound, and my Peavey VMP-2 if I want a warmer, slightly "gooey" sort of sound. Yes, "gooey" is a very technical recording term! However, I just got a Neve Portico, and that's going to be my new acoustic guitar preamp. Clean, it just sounds absolutely gorgeous and slightly more musical than the RNP; in Silk Mode, it's has more girth on the bottom end, the top end is not as sharp but is really really clear still, and also sounds gorgeous. Which one is right? Depends on the song, the emotion you're trying to capture... I use RNC compressors frequently, but do not have the RNLA. My *guess* is that if you are looking for, as you say, "warm, in your face acoustic guitars", the RNLA would probably be the thing to go for. But again, this is a guess.

 

This is great info, thanks. Since the acoustic will be in a mix of other guitars, keyboard and drums, now I'm thinking one 4051 may be the way to go. When I said "stereo" previously, I really meant to ask if two mics are better than one for capturing overall sound, not necessarily needing a stereo signal.

 

Always looking for consensus on these matters, I'm wondering if Phil (and others) would still choose the two 4041s over one 4051 if the acoustic was part of a larger mix?????

[UstadKhanAli]

Unfortunately, I have never used an AT4041. My understanding from others is that the AT4051 is a little fuller, but that the AT4041 is a wonderful mic.

 

So one possible option is to, obviously, compare the two mics.

 

Failing that, you can perhaps purchase an AT4051, and if you decide that you need two later, purchase another one. AT has good QC, and they should match just fine.

[BrainChild]

Coming back from IBMA Nashville I saw a lot of mics on some of the best acoustic instruments in the world (albeit live sound). This included Neumanns, AT's, Blues, and all types of Shures (often KSM44's) but to be honest the best tone of the show (by far) was had by Tony Rice and with a 57 (best I could tell) on his guitar. His mandolin player also used a 57 (both using windscreens) and it was tops too. I've seen Phil Ledbetter (dobro player of the year) use a 58 on his Dobro as well as the KSM44. Anyway you could get a Lawson, Vintech and UA610 for $5k and it would work for sure, but you might find a 57 with a decent pre might be darn close if not better.

[Lee Knight]

Here's an ultra cheap micing tip for dobro...

 

The Behringer omni test mic. If you get in real close the mic's noise is a none issue. The omni pattern brings the room into play which is nice on the dobro. No proximity effect works to your advantage with the very close micing...

 

I got about 4" away and it sounded great. RNP into RNC.

[where02190]

My prefered mics of choice for these instruments are all different.

 

For acoustic guitar, it's a pair of 414's.

Dobro, I like an AT4033A.

Mandolin, I go with a 57.

[UstadKhanAli]

I know you didn't ask about it, but for banjo, a lot of engineers use 57s. A banjo is basically a snare with strings, after all!

 

For acoustic gtr., I almost always go with two AT4051s.

 

I've only miced a dobro once. I think I used an AT4051 and an AT4060 LDC. I don't remember which one I placed most of the emphasis on. Can't remember everything. I did get a really great sound, though, and it fit in well with the track. The AT4051 was probably about 2' away, the LDC farther away, but I don't really remember that one very clearly because we were working very very quickly and I simply put a bunch of mics out there and kept grabbing them as the instruments changed.

 

Mandolin: I think I used my AT4060 through the Peavey VMP-2. This was during the same session, so I don't remember for sure. Also got an awesome sound that fit in well with the track.

[Dave Martin]

I tend to use a 414 in omni for dobro, though I've also had good luck with a THE mic with a 25mm capsule on it. I usually use the THE for banjo or mando, though. And I've never had much luck with a 57 on a banjo. THE or M582 here for banjo and mando.

[where02190]

AFA banjo goes, my preference is a Beta 57A. I like the additional top end response that is has over the SM57, which FYI I prefer on snare drum over the Beta.

[MarkGifford-1]

I've had great success w/an RE-20 on banjo - who'd think, right?

 

I searched on rec.audio.pro and that came up several times, so I tried it, along w/many others and the artist and I both thought it picked up the instrument the best.

 

Here's a sample:

 

http://www.laurencesugarman.com/music/mp3/cold_frosty_morning_sample.mp3

 

It's a nylon-stringed, fretless bajo.

 

MG