Members richardmac Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 I am not the worst, but I've posted enough doom and gloom to make Eeyore look like an optimist. It makes us all feel better to come in here ("The Music Biz") and vent, but aside from maybe opening the eyes of younger members foolish enough to stumble in here, it's really no longer fulfilling it's main purpose. The main purpose of THIS forum is to: "Discuss career and industry issues including promotion, distribution, tours, and managers." It's pretty obvious that practically no one in here is making a living at music. Or very few members. BlueStrat used to, I used to (but it was in retail), there are quite a few others who used to. But very few do now. If you don't want to make a living in music, and all you want to do is have fun, write songs, give away your tunes online and get a list of people who like your music, well... there's NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. But them's fightin' words 'round here. Because THIS forum is for people making a living in the music biz... even though practically none of us are! If you toss the idea of making a living writing and performing your own music, this kind of is a great time to be alive. It IS the age of the hobbyist. Want to record your own CD on your home computer? Put it online for the entire world to hear? Talk to like minded people from all over the world? You can do all that. Want a great sounding mic for $200? No problem. Want to burn a small number of CD's for not a lot of money and have them shrink wrapped and delivered to your door? Try THAT trick in 1982. True, you can't sell them, but they make a fantastic Christmas gift. I'd also like to point out, as I do at least once a month, that you can make a living in the music biz, because people are still buying instruments and taking lessons for fun. But this forum is not the place to discuss instrument design or how to move up through the ranks at Guitar Center, or get a job designing pickups for DiMarzio. (I want a Super Distortion, if anyone feels generous.) I dunno. To me, it's either time to change the tagline of this conference or maybe for HC to start up a new forum called "The Hobbyist Zone" or something, for people who just want to share their music with the world and talk about ways to do so, without all of the negativity here. Then again, I guess there's nothing stopping anyone here from just talking about that kind of stuff here. I dunno. I have a gig tomorrow night and I need to practice for it. I should be happy that I'm still playing music and having fun with it, but this place has all the feel of the old men at the neighborhood bar talking about how the country has gone to hell in a handbasket. Thing is... I LIKE talking to the other old men here about how the music biz has gone to hell in a handbasket. Just thinking out loud more than anything. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 "how to move up through the ranks at Guitar Center" This is my immediate career concern..... let's discuss that !! I think " the piss and moan zone" has a real ring to it myself !!!!!! How about ....... " Alternative methods to promoting the over-consumption of over priced alcoholic beverages in a club -Zone-" ?? Or as per you latest post in that other thread , we should concentrate on collectively honing our jingle writing abilities . Just some thoughts ... , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 You make a good point, Rich. As you well know, I've been a very vocal critic of the give it away crowd. But I've since softened my stance somewhat. On the one hand: You're right, none of us here are making a living at it, but I still believe that what we do at this level affects the upper levels as well. If more and more people give it away, it creates and solidifies a mindset in the public that music has no real value and ought to be free. We've argued this point, beat it and thrashed it to puree. But I think we can all agree that giving it way promotes, not discourages, the attitude that music has no value. On the other hand, that ship has already sailed, and the realism of the times we live in (the 'winter' I spoke about in another thread) has caused me to reassess my position. The fact is, reality is what it is. The genie is out of the bottle (as you said earlier) and it ain't going back, at least not until a realistic way of controlling distribution is found again. Since it isn't selling, we may as well be giving it away, or not producing it. Me, I like producing it, and like performing. I've been holding the line at my band getting $100/man a night , which is what we got in 1980, as long as I could, but I had to throw in that towel, too. There are just too many guys willing to go out and play for 50-80 dollars a night per guy. So I can accept it and play, or stay home and not play. I still make good jack for my solo act, thank God, and I get bookings a few times a month for it, but I like the sound I get from a band, too. It's just that I have to take what the market is paying, or sit it out. That's the reality, regardless of what I feel about it personally or as a matter of principle. Am I contributing to it by participating? Probably. Would I change it by sitting it out? Not a whit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted January 15, 2011 Author Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 Well, I talk a good game but I still have my music for sale as opposed to for free. But it's getting pointless. Like I said before, at my age in this stage of the game, I just want someone to give a crap. Giving away my music would definitely make it easier for me to get heard online. There's no way I'm making any money with selling my own music, but I would be able to get more people listening to my music if I deliver it for free. But not gigs, though. I get paid to perform. Not enough, but it helps out a little. And I enjoy performing. If it ever got to the point where no one would hire me to perform, but they'd "let" me play for free, I would never do it. I'd do an open mic once in a while, because you can just show up with your guitar, play three songs, and hang out with your musician friends. No PA, no extra guitar and keyboard, no setup and teardown. The good news about the solo performer is that there are tons of places that want live music and can't afford a band, and they know that all they could get for free would be an original only musician who is just starting out, and they tend to drive away more traffic than they bring in. But set up a keyboard and play "Your Song" and it gives that venue a small edge over the other venues who just blast music. I told you in a different thread that I'm trying to follow your model and find some nice restaurants to play at. Still working on it. I have no problem performing, but I struggle with cold call sales, which is what I need to do to get into some of these places. So I guess if we want to talk about small gigs here, that would make sense. Flatfinger, like I was saying, I have some respect for jingle writers, but I'd rather have the dry heaves than write jingles personally. The piss and moan zone DOES have a nice ring to it, yes! And I think we already learned how to sell more booze - turn up the volume. The louder the music, the less people talk, the more booze they buy. Or turn DOWN the volume - the nicer the atmosphere, the longer customers might stick around and contemplate dessert. Depends on the venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 For what it's worth Richard I made a living from scratching out just enough to survive to almost $60K for a few years Performing, writing, producing, studio work, etc, aside from a couple short breaks and the last year. I did this for 20 years and I have to say I agree with you that now is the best time ever to be in music if you are doing it for what I have always considered all the right reasons. FUN, PASSION, AND LOVE!! It's also worth mentioning when I personally made the most steady money playing, I was performing so many covers that I was the most miserable I have ever been!!! I find it easy to make money playing music if you want to do the cover thing and throw in originals. I'm really well rounded and cover basically any material through the ages that people want to hear and bar owners want you to play in their establishments. Maybe i'm lucky that it comes so easily to me but the irony is I have always seen myself as an artist. Not a cover guy and it just simply pains me to do the cover thing on a regular basis anymore. I feel like an impostor. That said, I haven't gigged regularly in the last year aside from maybe 12 gigs or so this past summer and I'm getting a bit antsy! I love performing still and it's a part of my DNA and taking a long break will put things back in line....Anyway, Richard It's a great great time to be a hobbiest artist!! Some i'm sure are very very talented and I enjoy discovering talented artists regardless of whether they are full time or not. I have at least 10 friends who are GREAT singer songwriters and as talented as anyone out there with record deals. Everyone feels lucky that they have an outlet for their art and can make it more or less fully realized inexpensively as compared to 20 years ago etc. I do not mourn the death of the music industry or the major labels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khem1cal Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 I always lol at people who are crying about the music industry. It's getting better for musicians and people are worried? I can't help but think the ones the most worried are the ones that have made a career out of cheating artists and now artists don't need them and it's all doom & gloom talk all of a sudden. Some of it may just be "back in my day" mentality, which I am also guilty of from time to time, but that doesn't change the reality that this is the best time to be a musician than any other time. FACT: You can make MTV ready music videos for FACT: You can record broadcast ready music for FACT: You CAN get quality exposure to the world via the internet FACT: You can OWN a tour bus for There's nothing but GOOD news on the horizon for me, Because I look at what is good with me and not dwell on the bad aspects. 1.I have talent(not gods gift to guitar, nor do I have to be). I can play every instrument used in my genre, plus some. 2. I am good looking, very good looking in fact. 3. I am photogenic, which makes me even more attractive in photo's/videos. 4. I am entertaining, I attract attention when I want to. 5. I won't stop until I am "famous"(highly popular is more what I want) or dead. 6. I know how when to "play ball" and when to rebel. Now you all should write down what is good about you, realize it's cheaper & cheaper, every year to have pro looks & sound and embrace technology and you'll get some level of a draw. You may not get a star on the Hollywood sidewalk, but you can make a decent life as a musician, despite what the nay-sayers babble about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted January 15, 2011 Moderators Share Posted January 15, 2011 Richard, this forum is for discussion...and does not exclude those who are not working in or making their living in the biz....just to clarify. I have worked in the biz on and off for years, and only briefly was I ever self-supporting as an actual performing musician; but there are other parts of the industry which are not performance based, where one can certainly make a good living. I have the 'free reign' in here to allow discussions beyond the scope of "promotion, distribution, tours, and managers" because the industry is so much more. Coming from NAMM yesterday reminded me of how it actually is possible to make a living in the industry, without necessarily being in a major music center, a performer, manager, sound man lighting guy, etc. There are thousands of manufacturer-related jobs still in this country, albeit you really need to look for them, and they are usually ground-floor opportunities, but I see growth in several segments where one would think the big players have killed the competition...much of it is in the boutique side, but there are others, innovators, who are viable. Nearly everyone of these 'innovators' I spoke with yesterday, (and I spoke with quite a few ) somewhere in the discussion admitted they got the idea because, as a gigging musician, the need for their product was not filled by anyone else...or they had tried the existing alternatives, and found what they believed was a better way. More power to them, I hope they succeed. I saw several things I felt were absolutely, in their own way, brilliant, but not likely to make the inventors billionaires. The other issue here, is regarding the negativity/doom and gloom. I understand the situation, and frankly, I am as guilty as anyone. The point is, we are on the threshold of an evolution in this industry, as far as performing/sales of recorded material/ and the income generated by performance and sales. I perceive the negativity as a result of confusion and disappointment: Many grew up thinking that the way to attain a lofty life goal was to become a rock star...but honestly, that was never realistic nor possible for 99.999999999% of those attempting it. But worse than that, economic issues and technological advances are killing off the live music scene all over the place...DJs now have the ability to download a requested song before their next break...a live band can't compete with that, no matter how skilled. Digital jukeboxes...need I go on? No, the heyday of the rock band is coming to a close, the days of touring, throwing TVs out of hotel windows and demanding specific m&ms be removed are over...and it may, in a way, be exactly because of those excesses that this is happening. The world is changing, excessive drug use and indiscriminate sexual exploits are out...there are new models to envision. Wanna become rich, kid? Forget being a rockstar, develop the next big social media website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 FACT: You can make MTV ready music videos for FACT: You can record broadcast ready music for FACT: You CAN get quality exposure to the world via the internet FACT: You can OWN a tour bus for Is that a FACT!!! Well if you say so ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khem1cal Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 !!! Well if you say so ! Do a little research and you will see it is factual....and that's a FACT!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted January 15, 2011 Author Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 I perceive the negativity as a result of confusion and disappointment: Many grew up thinking that the way to attain a lofty life goal was to become a rock star...but honestly, that was never realistic nor possible for 99.999999999% of those attempting it. But worse than that, economic issues and technological advances are killing off the live music scene all over the place...DJs now have the ability to download a requested song before their next break...a live band can't compete with that, no matter how skilled. Digital jukeboxes...need I go on? No, the heyday of the rock band is coming to a close, the days of touring, throwing TVs out of hotel windows and demanding specific m&ms be removed are over...and it may, in a way, be exactly because of those excesses that this is happening. The world is changing, excessive drug use and indiscriminate sexual exploits are out...there are new models to envision. Wanna become rich, kid? Forget being a rockstar, develop the next big social media website. I think there's another piece to it. Yes, the negativity is the result of confusion and disappointment, definitely. And yes we all knew our odds sucked badly before. But some of the REASONS that our odds sucked - not getting your music heard, not being able to afford to make an album - some of those reasons went away because of technology. And I think a lot of us said "YEAH! With the barriers out of the way, maybe I can have a shot at something!" And when the bottom fell out of selling recorded music, we were left very disappointed. Like the rug got yanked out from under us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted January 15, 2011 Author Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 FWIW - I think the FACT that is missing is an exact business plan on how to make enough money to support an artist and their band. To eek out a livable wage for a 5 piece band would take $100,000 per year AFTER all expenses. Drive and determination are good things but a realistic business plan is also important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 Do a little research and you will see it is factual....and that's a FACT!! You thought that once upon a time , you'd made an error. But.... you were mistaken . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khem1cal Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 FWIW - I think the FACT that is missing is an exact business plan on how to make enough money to support an artist and their band. To eek out a livable wage for a 5 piece band would take $100,000 per year AFTER all expenses. Drive and determination are good things but a realistic business plan is also important. I make my money outside of music, It's passive income(i.e I don't have to be present or working to make money), so my focus this year is to play the summer out. I have no delusions of "getting rich" off of music, nor is that my goal. I don't know what to tell 30 piece bands you can do more with less with pre-recorded tracks and synths, aside from orchestra's, it's pretty ridiculous to see more than 5 people. I am just going to have 3 other hired guns, find the cheapest, but good looking for the job, I can as the focus needs to be on me anyway, no one else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 Richard and sventkg are having a debate ; Richard says that what sventkg is about to say is a lie ..... sventkg says that what Richard just said is the truth .......... That should straighten this all out for you , dear reader. you're welcome. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 . Well a big component in the modern promotional plan of web based music careers seems to be Hubris . You appear to be good to go . I'm not blind to the reality of the fact that the singer is king ... I remember I heard some pundit commenting on when the police played a breif reunion a few years back ; ... He said ... " It was good to hear Sting and those other two guys play again " !!! You go getum chemical , ( oh , and stay away from the chemicals too . Lord knows how many musos have lost it over those .) ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khem1cal Posted January 15, 2011 Members Share Posted January 15, 2011 Is it really hubris or self-confidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted January 16, 2011 Members Share Posted January 16, 2011 Good question! Keep asking it of yourself occasionally. Couldn't hurt . But you definatley need to believe! If you think you can , or If you think you can't .... You're probably right . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted January 16, 2011 Members Share Posted January 16, 2011 It's getting better for musicians and people are worried? Better in what way? Churning out product? Yes, I'd agree. Converting into a livable income at the most basic level? Hardly. It's worse than ever. Well, in the past 60 years, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khem1cal Posted January 16, 2011 Members Share Posted January 16, 2011 Better in what way? Churning out product? Yes, I'd agree. Converting into a livable income at the most basic level? Hardly. It's worse than ever. Well, in the past 60 years, anyway. Making a fat living off of music, is a blip on the musical radar. I don't perform music to be well off, I invest in other things for money. I do music because I love music and will never do anything else outside of entertainment as a full time physical investment. If a bunch of primadonna's want to quit cause there's no get rich scheme, sweet, they weren't in it for the right reasons anyway. I do music to make statements in an artistic form, I do music to expose my thoughts & self expression, I do music to mess with peoples heads. I DON'T do music for the money. The women & the drugs are my currency for musical payoffs If I was offered a deal that involved no money to me personally, but I was comped for food/travel and I was allowed to play stadiums every night and get plastered at high end hollywood clubs, i'd be happy living in a 500sqft apartment. The house doesn't make me, the cars don't make me, materials don't make me. Emotions & connecting with audiences no matter if it's just 1 person or a billion people, that's what makes me happy. Too many get involved in music for the wrong reasons, most bands I grew up listening to got famous for making statements and had no desires to be rich & famous, it was a by-product of being dedicated to their music. A lot of the bands I like didn't even get real exposure until 5-10yrs into playing shows non-stop and living a "crappy life". I can eat baloney sandwiches all day, everyday with a smile, as long as I am still involved in music. Whether the industry wants me or not, is another matter, but in the next 5yrs, I will at least be heard, that's a promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted January 16, 2011 Author Members Share Posted January 16, 2011 Khem1cal, You said earlier "you can make a decent life as a musician, despite what the nay-sayers babble about." Then when asked what a business plan to make a decent life as a musician would look like, you say you make your money outside of music, and that you don't do music for the money. Did you mean financially, when you said decent life? Because if so, you're contradicting yourself. And if not, then you're essentially agreeing with my original post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khem1cal Posted January 16, 2011 Members Share Posted January 16, 2011 Khem1cal,You said earlier "you can make a decent life as a musician, despite what the nay-sayers babble about." Then when asked what a business plan to make a decent life as a musician would look like, you say you make your money outside of music, and that you don't do music for the money. Did you mean financially, when you said decent life? Because if so, you're contradicting yourself. And if not, then you're essentially agreeing with my original post. You can make money off music, but it's not like you're going to be pulling in 100mil a year most likely. I know a lot of local guys that consider making 20k a year as a failure, to me that is success. So what if you can't afford a "crib" or drive one of your 30 Ferrari's. That's all materialistic b.s. anyway. Materials are the bottom of the barrel on my list of importance. Some guys here will probably laugh at the though of making 10k-20k as a success, but you have to be marketable and unique to make good money IMO. You may not even make that, but money is not important, the music is. If money is your main importance, get into another business. The industry is for artists, not get rich quick schemes. You can make money, but it won't be glitzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted January 16, 2011 Members Share Posted January 16, 2011 You can make money off music, but it's not like you're going to be pulling in 100mil a year most likely. I know a lot of local guys that consider making 20k a year as a failure, to me that is success. $20,000 a year isn't quite above the poverty line for a family of four http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/09fedreg.shtml( please don't tell us that musicians shouldn't have families either!) That wouldn't go very far, especially in expensive city's ( where the gigs are ) It's working poor . You'd probably be able to get food stamps !! Your rhetoric is starting to get a little weak . When you say you'd be happy on that , you're starting to reveal your true colors ( which is just to win the debate no matter what it takes). No one here says they need to be a multi-millionare or they don't want to do music . But saying you would be pleased to make below the poverty line is getting a little unbelievable . Artist don't have to take a vow of poverty to be artist . ( That's for holy men!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khem1cal Posted January 16, 2011 Members Share Posted January 16, 2011 No real musicians shouldn't have families, kids costs what, 100k each? plus your wifes expenses. and if a divorce is involved at some point.....yeah, focus on yourself. You can get a new groupie after every show, no need to get married. BTW I know many people that make 20k or a little under a year. They have a house, a couple of cars, tv's with cable, etc. If you want the latest materials, then stay out of music or keep it a hobby. I know no matter what, you're going to disagree with me, but that's because you guys are so doom & gloom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted January 16, 2011 Members Share Posted January 16, 2011 . Ok then , whatever you say ..................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Khem1cal Posted January 16, 2011 Members Share Posted January 16, 2011 Ok then , whatever you say ..................... Keep chasing materials & monopoly money and missing out on the real enjoyments in life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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