Anti-Doom and Gloom?

[BlueStrat]

Wouldn't work for an extreme metal band either No restaurants are going to book a death metal band...so thumbs up my ass on that. I am stuck with pay 2 play scams or playing for free :/

Yeah, I agree. Metal seems to operate in it's own world by it's own set of rules.

[Khem1cal]

Yeah I guess we just don't follow conventional rules. We're rebels, even when it comes to bookings

 

Problem is, there are a lot of good bands, but there's also a lot of copycat bands(locally I mean), I swear I thought this band was covering(badly) a popular metal tune, but it was there "own song", it was plagiarism at best

[richardmac]

 

All that is true, but we cannot escape the fact the the internet is a go-to, not a come-to medium. People have to log on and actively go look for music, rather then the old method of having it placed in front of our noses in posters, billboards, TV ads, radio plays and so on. Most people just aren't inclined to go log on and spend hours listening to 30 second clips to find something decent. They just aren't. I tried it, and I'm into music. After an hour, I was numb to it. And I had only gotten halfway through the A's in a sub-genre of blues. When I think that there were about 9 other sub-genres of just blues on that site, and about 25 main genres, each with any number of sub-genres, the size of the task becomes overwhelming. It really is like looking for a needle in a haystack, and even though there may be hundred needles, when the haystack covers more than an acre, it seems futile. More importantly for the consumer, is the quality of what one does find worth the time it takes to find it? This, to me, is the biggest liability of the internet, and why it hasn't been the boon to the DIY guys that it was once thought to be.

 

 

Yeah, I'd have to agree to everything you just said. I've tried it too. The only success I've had is doing that on iTunes - I've found a couple of good bands by looking at the charts of music I don't normally listen to, like electronica. Other than that, yes - the consumer going to the Internet to sift through ungodly amounts of music isn't happening.

[richardmac]

Years ago I had a buddy who was in a death metal band, and we went to a couple of clubs to see them. I recorded them one time. This was in Tampa. And that crowd definitely did play by its own rules, and yeah, there were no cover songs - all the opening and main bands did their own thing. That was a crazy scene. This one show, my buddy's band was on first. When they finished, the next band got up, and they had on swastikas and stuff, and the lead singer started out the show by turning his back to the audience and throwing us double middle fingers. And these skinheads came in. We left, which was a good idea, because 30 minutes later a huge brawl happened and the cops came en masse. It was the death metal fans vs. the nazi death metal fans. Crazy stuff.

 

Tampa used to be huge into death metal but it's certainly died down. It's not gone, but it's much less popular.

[Khem1cal]

That's what I am talking about! I remember a show with my old band there had to be at least a 1/4" of blood in a big puddle by the time we got off. Going to jail right after your set is a badge of honor too btw, not that I would know about that.

[Still.ill]

imo now its all about what the blogs latch on to

 

theres this band called wavves that was basically a 1 man band project of nathan williams that recorded an album of the crappiest sounding noise pop on a macbook in garageband,(but did have decent pop hooks) released it for free

and somehow the internet sifted it out and now the guy whos like.... 24 is making a decent living off his music

[richardmac]

It sounds like he did exactly what I was saying - he figured out a way to get a lot of attention and then was able to convert that attention to money. That's the new Music Biz model. You have to wonder how much luck plays into the process, which is discouraging. The other issue is that it's awful tough to sustain a career out of a sub genre like noise pop. So you have to be able to leverage that attention into the next thing that you move onto. But it certainly has been done before. Lot of people thought Madonna would never make it past her 1st album.

 

Old guys, note - these stories are always about young people doing music for other young people. Flavor of the month sub-genres CAN'T be appealing to older folks or the young folks won't like them. That's why these sub-genres have to have at least one element that absolutely sucks - to keep out the old people. So if you're thinking about this route, forget it! People your age don't even USE the Internet!

[Poker99]

Wouldn't work for an extreme metal band either No restaurants are going to book a death metal band...so thumbs up my ass on that. I am stuck with pay 2 play scams or playing for free :/

 

And so it begins...

[Still.ill]

 

It sounds like he did exactly what I was saying - he figured out a way to get a lot of attention and then was able to convert that attention to money. That's the new Music Biz model. You have to wonder how much luck plays into the process, which is discouraging. The other issue is that it's awful tough to sustain a career out of a sub genre like noise pop. So you have to be able to leverage that attention into the next thing that you move onto. But it certainly has been done before. Lot of people thought Madonna would never make it past her 1st album. Old guys, note - these stories are always about young people doing music for other young people. Flavor of the month sub-genres CAN'T be appealing to older folks or the young folks won't like them. That's why these sub-genres have to have at least one element that absolutely sucks - to keep out the old people. So if you're thinking about this route, forget it! People your age don't even USE the Internet!

 

 

 

well traditionally rock music has been made by young people for the young people. think about it most of the great rock and roll masterpieces were made before the members turned 30

[daddymack]

 

FACT: You can make MTV ready music videos for FACT: You can record broadcast ready music for FACT: You CAN get quality exposure to the world via the internet FACT: You can OWN a tour bus for There's nothing but GOOD news on the horizon for me, Because I look at what is good with me and not dwell on the bad aspects. 1.I have talent(not gods gift to guitar, nor do I have to be). I can play every instrument used in my genre, plus some. 2. I am good looking, very good looking in fact. 3. I am photogenic, which makes me even more attractive in photo's/videos. 4. I am entertaining, I attract attention when I want to. 5. I won't stop until I am "famous"(highly popular is more what I want) or dead. 6. I know how when to "play ball" and when to rebel. Now you all should write down what is good about you, realize it's cheaper & cheaper, every year to have pro looks & sound and embrace technology and you'll get some level of a draw. You may not get a star on the Hollywood sidewalk, but you can make a decent life as a musician, despite what the nay-sayers babble about.

 

okay, but...

1) how many musicians can come up with $25,000 before they hit the road?

2) you say a living can be made at this, yet...you also later admit your income is already guaranteed by some other means, so you are free to pursue music without contemplating the starvation factor.

3) many of us were 'good looking' (I did modeling in my youth)...but that will only last just so long...trust me. And if that were the only consideration, Dylan, Springsteen, Croce, Lovett, et al., would never have made it.

4) nowhere in your list did I see "I write absolutely killer tunes', without which you aren't going to get very far, unless you buy your material.

 

I applaud your zeal, and wish you the best.

[Khem1cal]

yeah, well we can make some money with music still, but I think having other streams of income is going to be key and doing other things. It all depends on what you want in life too imo. I don't knock people wanting a big house & fancy cars, etc but it'll be easier to obtain that working in the corporate world, which I am not wired for. There's other things you can do that are still just as fun like shooting video, acting, modeling, theatre, dance, etc. I like all forms of entertainment so I dabble in a little of this and a little of that. I guess I am more into entertainment as whole than just music by itself. Music is my main passion though.

 

I should have worded things better

 

Yes, killer songs are a given. I played my material I am working on with some good buddies that are now a national act and they dug it a lot. I still have to refine things & smooth things out, but I have 7 songs(well I have a bunch, but only 7 for main project) and there's 3 specifically that people dig more than the others, they said the others are good too, but those certain ones will be my main tunes that people will remember the most. I am not a virtuoso or anything, they are pretty basic riffs, but they are solid and should cause a nice riot in the pit.

 

So if all goes well I can make a nice living(by my standards which are pretty basic and low ymmv) doing shows and doing a little bit of acting here & there.

 

I don't mind being "poor" and living in the entertainment world, but i'll "sellout" at the drop of a hat

 

The people I touch is more important than the money, that's why I think if you want the wife/kids package, I think cover bands may be your only hope unless you can draw decent as an original. Covers seem to make a lot of loot too, so that's a good avenue to take if you want decent wages and play music full-time.

 

Thanks for your wishes! Maybe i'll get lucky and catch a break and be on one of your banner ads someday.

[Poker99]

lol

[AVisme]

It sounds like he did exactly what I was saying - he figured out a way to get a lot of attention and then was able to convert that attention to money. That's the new Music Biz model.

I agree, that's what you have to do...make yourself known somehow, be the "needle in the haystack" that people notice, including the labels.

 

Christina Perri made herself known by getting her song "Jar of Hearts" on the show "So You Think You Can Dance". Atomic Tom got a lot of coverage for playing iPhones on the subway and posting it on Youtube:

Do something crazy and unusual and get the TV news and gossip shows talking about it.

 

I don't see why only young artists are allowed to go that route, though. Susan Boyle ain't no spring chicken.

[flatfinger]

 

That's the new Music Biz model. You have to wonder how much luck plays into the process, which is discouraging.

 

 

That's not the new business model ; that's the same one ; same as it ever was !!! Any old guard record company employee could provide dozens of examples of great songs/Albums that were recorded well and received critical acclaim and a generous promotion budget ....... Yet still didn't catch lightning in a bottle .

 

Marketing and promotion of abstract or semi-abstract commodities has to be regarded as a crap shoot right out of the gate.......

 

No one in there right mind could've predicted the phenomena of the pet rock craze .......Pop culture is mercurial ..

 

The cross roads between youth culture and musical creation is a inexact science at best .

 

 

( That used to be who bought the lions share of recordings... youths)( can you believe it !! they offered a renumeration in exchange for what they consumed !! ;.. Those crazy kids !!)

 

The thing is that allot of pop bands couldn't repeat a success ( one hit wonders) because there one hit was a stroke of luck ( or was 5 years in the making !!) and the didn't have the songwriting craft or chops .

 

The fact is that the folks who invested capital in the record business were some mighty high rollers who took big ass risk cause they loved music ( this was before the corporations took over ) There were always safer bets around than risking one's capital in the friggin record business ! .

 

Now the broad brush paint job is that all record companies were all universally evil and that all artist that ever got involved with one got utterly and completely reamed . every single time . What a great bit of propaganda! Gobbles would have been jealous !!

 

 

Country is the last genre were the artist will admit that maybe someone else can pen a better tune than themselves ...

 

In other genres , the artist also wants to get all or part of the the paltry writers share of the pie ...... so they do it themselves ( badly ) or change a line or two and squeeze the writer for a co- write credit . Genuine songwriters are an endangered species and will soon be seen next to the Victrolas in the museum !

 

So now you that we have eliminated the main draw ( UH.... , you know ; an income stream !) from any music company's , we still expect that someones going to scour the depths of the earth looking for those hidden gems ; RIGHT ??

 

Imagine if you Dug and Dug in the ground ( and then did it some more )( OK for a few years more ) and found a nice little gold nugget , but when you took it to town you found out that all of the sudden gold wasn't worth a dime a pound !!!!

 

 

The web isn't going to replace what capitalism had in place in order to discover new gems of talented musicians . Not a chance . No sane person is going to spend there days sifting through a stack of needles looking for a needle of one decent song . The web can't replace the filters that were in place .

 

 

 

My point is that the folks who have the most influence on whether we get songs that can stand the test of time are the very ones were busy killing off . The goose that lays the golden eggs so to speak .

 

Sorry , but that's the facts ( I know some folks should just accept it cause I SAY it's a FACT .. LOL !!)

 

 

My doom and gloom isn't without having first examined things a little and then given some thought to it !!!

 

 

But I'm not advocating giving up either ; just think it's good to know what you're up against:eek: !!!

 

 

This is all undiscovered country were in folks . Obviously some are seeing it as the new shangrila and think that opportunity is knocking big time . The promise is supposedly more room for more moderately successful players in the game instead of just a few fat cats ........ But as we haven't really seen any medium sized successes break out as a result of the web ( mostly small regional things so far ) (I'd be allot more impressed by someone who has not had label promotion and some previous success allready established showing up ) I'm not totally convinced yet .

 

 

 

 

Cheers

 

 

 

.

[U&I]

Sure I learned bass guitar and played in the school band may years ago.

Scales, scales and more scales, progressions, fingering exercises and so on and so forth with a proper theory teacher and heaven forbid sheet music (yes that old dinosaur).

Some 25 years on I make music (though some would argue that point) using technology.

I mean that in the true sense, in that I do lots of custom field recording, found sound manipulation and sampling and view my music studio in it's entirety as my instrument of choice.

These days I am a sucky bass player, and not a terribly good keyboard player either, i am however a very good programmer of midi, synths and the like, still use an old school approach, with much of the intricate editing being done in an audio editor and carefully constructing the parts and sounds used just the way I like them to be.

I have seen a lot of tools come on the scene in recent years that are instant FSU ({censored} {censored} up), instant Glitch, instant beat juggling and so on and so forth that have IMHO detracted from the art of finely constructed electronic music. Sure it exists still with the likes of Plaid, Uziq, Aphex Twin, Richard H.Kirk, Telefon Tel Aviv, Eno, Burnt Friedman, Jan Bang, Murcof, Autechre and so on and so forth but even "DJ Culture" has put the emphasis on the person delivering the medium and not the person creating it.

That said I do not compose dance music and I don't write songs, I cannot afford to drag a studio out on the road and at 42 going on 43 find it nigh on impossible to make a living from my craft. Yes I do make money but it is not a sustainable income by any length of the imagination. I've done the whole middle management "suit" thing and quite frankly it nearly killed me.

That said I want to create, not be a web designer, audio engineer, producer, composer, promotional and publicity man, video designer and cyber networker all at the same time. It does (for me at least) distract from the will, need and desire to create.

My health hasn't been the best these last ten years (though my last pancreatic surgery seems to have turned things around a lot), I cannot afford to gig and working full time really isn't an option as I care part time for my Father who is in his 80's and paraplegic (with my Mothers health failing also).

I'm an odd sort, somewhat eccentric in real life and terribly idiosyncratic in many respects (which doesn't endear me to certain personality types and some people find just a little bit too kooky for my own good at times).

Whilst I agree that as far as creating your art goes, it simply hasn't been a better on a scale of economy and power of tools available, making some sort of a living from this has eluded me for years.

Luckily I am the sort of person that needs to create for my own sanity (yes seriously). That said I don't want to be rich and I really have no desire to play the fame game (never have).

I would love to be able to make 20-25K per annum doing what I love most.

The reality however is, that unless I DJ & write dance music, which is still no guarantee of success I am going to be 60, doing {censored} part time work to keep funding my craft and improving my skill set.

Guess that's just the way it is.

On the up side I have met some very talented singer songwriters, pianists, guitarists and instrumentalists who have exposed me to a world of wonderful music (one of whom I am collaborating with next year on an alt folk pop - clicks'n'cut hybrid project). So there is always an upside.

At the end of the day do it for you if not anything else and maybe, just maybe you'll be an inspiration to some else along the way.

[flatfinger]

 

At the end of the day do it for you if not anything else and maybe, just maybe you'll be an inspiration to some else along the way.

 

 

 

 

+1:love:

[richardmac]

But as we haven't really seen any medium sized successes break out as a result of the web ( mostly small regional things so far ) (I'd be allot more impressed by someone who has not had label promotion and some previous success allready established showing up ) I'm not totally convinced yet.

 

Pomplamoose.

 

Well, you said "any."

 

No, really, I'm with you about most of that stuff. I really liked your point about how we should not paint all the record companies with one big "evil" brush. But just like that is true, we should also not paint the new music business as an utter failure for everyone. There are other success stories besides Pomplamoose, but we aren't necessarily going to hear about them because quite frankly they're not "news" to the average person. I'm sure there are bands that were nobodies, got noticed on either MySpace (previously) or YouTube (now), and managed to leverage that attention into a deal with an indie label or even build up their own fan base enough to start doing tours. I bet if we all went and googled it and spent some time scouring the web we could find these moderate success stories, but we'd rather sit around here and say it can't be done. And I'm including me in that "we," by the way.

 

BUT. But from a business standpoint it looks very difficult to pull off, requiring large amounts of luck. If you're the only guy at your high school who plays acoustic guitar and sings, the girls are going to check you out. But on the Internet there are millions of guys who play acoustic guitar and sing. And the only way to get attention is to do something gimmicky or very very clever, usually having little to do with music, and hoping you can somehow attract attention, alongside the other people who read the same Bob Baker articles that you did and are trying to be gimmicky and clever just like you.

 

Put another way, the professional musician had three big ways of getting coin, in the past - write songs and get them all over radio, sell a crapload of music, and do a ton of performances. Two out of three of those are dying or gone. Which means the idea of making a living doing your own music just got really freaking hard, and it was already really hard. (That's what she said.)

 

So MY take on this is sort of zen - it is as it is. If I can't make a living at it, then I won't. OK, so what CAN I do? What ARE the positives? Well, you have the best technology in history to make any kind of music you want and share it with the entire world. OK, that's cool. That's what I'll do. Sure, some moron might be clever enough to animate his washing machine to look like it's singing his song, and get a million hits on YouTube. I don't want to play that game - it looks very silly to me.

 

As a music FAN, I agree with everything you said and I morn the loss of labels funding albums like 2112. As a songwriter, I don't think it's helpful for me to dwell on that stuff. I've got awesome tools at my disposal for making music. I need to use them, if I'm going to call myself a songwriter. And I need to get them out to the world, if I'm going to call myself an artist.

[richardmac]

I don't want to make a living in music,I just want to gain happiness.

 

Someone with a realistic goal! Good for you.

[daddymack]

 

I don't want to make a living in music,I just want to gain happiness.

 

More like you want to gain post count...too bad i keep deletig these as fast as I find them...

[richardmac]

Great. There goes the only optimist.

[Syyle]

Is anyone else laughing at Kemichal as much as I am? His naivety is going to destroy him in the end.

 

Kemichal, don't throw caution to the wind and just discount what these older guys/gals are telling you. Don't be that guy.

[daddymack]

Is anyone else laughing at Kemichal as much as I am? His naivety is going to destroy him in the end. Kemichal, don't throw caution to the wind and just discount what these older guys/gals are telling you. Don't be that guy .

Hey, come on..we all think we can be 'the one' when we are young and starting out...that is how we all ended up here now

[Poker99]

 

Is anyone else laughing at Kemichal as much as I am? His naivety is going to destroy him in the end. Kemichal, don't throw caution to the wind and just discount what these older guys/gals are telling you. Don't be that guy .

 

 

did you listen to his music? He will conquer the world, that's for sure.

[Khem1cal]

Nope still optimistic as ever, been helping a buddies band shoot their new music video and working on my own stuff.

 

Poker99 I would love to hear your musical genius btw. The only stuff I posted on this site are

 

Let's hear your serious projects, poker99. Wow me with your epicness.

[U&I]

 

Nope still optimistic as ever, been helping a buddies band shoot their new music video and working on my own stuff. Poker99 I would love to hear your musical genius btw. The only stuff I posted on this site are Let's hear your serious projects, poker99. Wow me with your epicness.

 

 

Calling someone else out on there "epicness" is all fine and dandy, and quite frankly I don't think Poker99's tone was called for either. That said, if you are going to set up a Reverbnation and/or Myspace account (both services I loathe but I digress) and you are as serious as you say you are, then my advice is to not to post 2 minute drafts conceptualized and written within 3 minutes. My advice would be to use Soundcloud for works in progress (even if their audio codec is pants IMHO) and get thrid party feedback on where people want you to take your music.

Making a decent living at this isn't easy, but you need to marry that optimism with a certain element of professionalism too. My youtube videos are an utter embarrassment for example and I am going to have to find someone who can do proper videos for me (even if they are just image montage type things as it isn't my strong suit at all.

Just thought some constructive feedback would help - also have you listened to any Throbbing Gristle and say Cabaret Voltaire or Rammestein and Chris Vrenna - if you want to marry a metal aesthetic with industrial and experimental material they'd be a good place to start, and see how you could incorporate some of those concepts into your sound.

Best of luck - enthusiasm and positivity go a long way.