Potentially stupid question: Plug-in compensation

[Def_Pearl_Pilot]

How can you tell if your plug-ins are screwing up your host based recording studio? I'm running PTLE7.3 and I'm not quite sure if and when I hear this problem. The only time I notice weirdness is with reverbs. I notice weird artifacts sometimes. But I'm not sure if it's because of plug-in latency or just the effect is crappy. In this case, it's TL Space Native(RTAS).

 

So, are these artifacts I'm hearing from the plug-in delay? Also, how do I go about correcting the problem?

[Def_Pearl_Pilot]

Found a link...

 

http://safari.oreilly.com/159200069X/ch08lev1sec265

[birdyyellow]

interesting...

[Phil O'Keefe]

Do you guys know how to display a channel's latency? It's really pretty easy. Look at the mixer screen.

 

 

See the black windows with the green lettering right above the track names? That normally displays "Vol" (volume), but if you control / click on that window, it will alternate between "Pk" (peak - loudest volume peaks) and "Dly" (delay - in samples). If a plug in is causing latency that is not being compensated for by the DAE (Digidesign Audio Engine), you should be able to see it displayed there.

[Phil O'Keefe]

How do you fix it if a plug in is causing latency? Determine how much latency you're dealing with on that track, and then nudge that track ahead by that same number of samples, or alternatively, you can use the delay compensation plug in to delay all the other tracks by that same amount so that everything is time aligned.

 

Lack of true automatic delay compensation is one of the biggest hassles of PT LE IMHO.

 

It's an older article, but you guys might find it useful:

 

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Feb03/articles/pronotes0203.asp

 

[Def_Pearl_Pilot]

Thanks for the reply Phil.

[Phil O'Keefe]

You're welcome - I hope it helps.

[Def_Pearl_Pilot]

You're welcome - I hope it helps.

 

I do have one question. What about aux tracks? I'm assuming that if I send to an aux track for effects, it's best to bounce with effects and then adjust by the delay. Would that be accurate?

[Zooey]

 

I do have one question. What about aux tracks? I'm assuming that if I send to an aux track for effects, it's best to bounce with effects and then adjust by the delay. Would that be accurate?

 

 

Good question. If the effect on the aux is delay or reverb, you really don't need to worry about it. A few samples extra delay will be inaudible and will not phase with the original disk track if the effect is set to 100% wet.

 

If you're doing something like parallel compression, then it does make a difference. Here's how some people handle that:

 

http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.php?Number=1159319

[Zooey]

 

The only time I notice weirdness is with reverbs. I notice weird artifacts sometimes. But I'm not sure if it's because of plug-in latency or just the effect is crappy. In this case, it's TL Space Native(RTAS). So, are these artifacts I'm hearing from the plug-in delay? Also, how do I go about correcting the problem?

 

 

I doubt the artifacts are caused by latency. Make sure the mix on the reverb is set to 100% wet.

[the stranger]

 

Lack of true automatic delay compensation is one of the biggest hassles of PT LE IMHO.

 

 

Considering the ramifications, I'm shocked that this isn't a standard feature in DAWs.

[seclusion]

I'm with you on that Stranger, why is this something any of us has to think about! And if we change buffer setting so we can continue working then the compensator should do just that! Compensate.... Can we say Duh!

So let's assume (yes an ass out of U and me) I'm adding fx's to a track. Surely that Daw can just add the compensation to it... Simple as 1-2-3-4 alright.

Don't make me record a track, bounce it add this to that, think, guess, and hope that all is right in la la land. Sonar does this as well and I hate it that everytime I do something different then the last time there I am, trying to guess (cause my math is awful) what should be what!

GGrrrrrRRRRrrrRRGGRRRR...

Stupid!

Later

[Phil O'Keefe]

Good question. If the effect on the aux is delay or reverb, you really don't need to worry about it. A few samples extra delay will be inaudible and will not phase with the original disk track if the effect is set to 100% wet. If you're doing something like parallel compression, then it does make a difference. Here's how some people handle that: http://duc.digidesign.com/showflat.php?Number=1159319

 

That's a good way of getting around the issue if you mix ITB... but since I often use four or even six outputs for drums to an external mixer, offsetting the tracks with the Time Adjuster plug in is the best solution IMHO, as it eats up far less CPU power than something like sticking a bypassed copy of Smack! on each individual output does.

 

You guys might also want to check out this white paper on plug in latency compensation - you can download it right here.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Considering the ramifications, I'm shocked that this isn't a standard feature in DAWs.

 

It is. Pro Tools LE is the only major DAW application that I am aware of that DOESN'T have full ADC. Even Reaper has it. And with a many plug ins, PTLE will show no delay, but with some plug ins, it's a problem. If the time it takes to process the audio with the plug in is low enough, the DAE in PTLE can deal with it just fine... however, if it takes more time for the plug in to process the audio than it takes the DAE to spit out the audio, there's a problem and there will be a delay. At least that's how I understand it.

 

Unfortunately, Smack! does indeed have a 1 sample delay, which means you have to jump through a few hoops to use it as a parallel buss compressor - which is a drag, because that is otherwise (IMHO) an excellent plug in for that application.

[jbr]

 

Unfortunately, Smack! does indeed have a 1 sample delay, which means you have to jump through a few hoops to use it as a parallel buss compressor - which is a drag, because that is otherwise (IMHO) an excellent plug in for that application.

 

 

Is that a typo Phil? 1 sample delay making it cumbersome to use Smack! that way. It's such a small amount.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Is that a typo Phil? 1 sample delay making it cumbersome to use Smack! that way. It's such a small amount.

 

Yes, it's a small amount. No, that's not a typo. And yes, it causes phase issues. It might not bother you or many other people, but I can definitely hear it and it drives me up the #$^& wall unless I address it.

[TBush]

Yes, it's a small amount. No, that's not a typo. And yes, it causes phase issues. It might not bother you or many other people, but I can definitely hear it and it drives me up the #$^& wall unless I address it.

 

Oh man me too- I use Logic 5 but there's only a few comps that I think sound great and don't have any latency issues. Any aux buss phase issue is most assuredly a big pain and definitely audible. In fact, the way I use Drumagog sometimes is to clone the track, back it up (or ahead) 1 sample (I think it's 1/192nd in Logic) then use Logic's sample delay to get it all lined up nice. I just don't like to use it in an aux return because of the phasing... unless I'm totally replacing the sound which is really rare.

[Matt Hepworth]

 

I'm with you on that Stranger, why is this something any of us has to think about! And if we change buffer setting so we can continue working then the compensator should do just that! Compensate.... Can we say Duh! So let's assume (yes an ass out of U and me) I'm adding fx's to a track. Surely that Daw can just add the compensation to it... Simple as 1-2-3-4 alright. Don't make me record a track, bounce it add this to that, think, guess, and hope that all is right in la la land. Sonar does this as well and I hate it that everytime I do something different then the last time there I am, trying to guess (cause my math is awful) what should be what! GGrrrrrRRRRrrrRRGGRRRR... Stupid! Later

 

 

Interesting. I don't have these issues and I'm a pretty big SONAR user.

 

Phil's right, PTLE and MP are the only soft that doesn't have ADC built in. Stupid. Even the cheap, basic, or free versions of all major apps still have it.

[Lee Knight]

1 sample of delay is only an issue when you're blending it in with the undelayed sound. Ugly.

 

If, on the other hand, you delay all the sounds from a muti mic drum recording by the same amount, you won't hear it. So... for me, I usually open a Massey compressor on each drum channel. Even if I'm not compressing, I like the tone it imparts on the drums. It, like Smack, has a single sample of delay, but when each channel gets an instance... no issues.

 

For parallel stuff, I just duplicate the chain on the aux.

 

I typically use Digi III EQ for drums which doesn't have any latency. So, for drums, that is my basic channel strip. Massey into Digi III. Strangely, after using all flavors of compression and EQ, this bare bones stock console concept is liberating in it's straight forwardness. Zero comb filtering with zero brain stress.