Breakdown: How much do I pay a band to let me rehearse with them?

[Cobain.David]

first of all, very cool forums guys, i apologize if i break any rules right now and if there are pertinent threads in the back catalogs i apologize for not doing a thorough search. yay first post.

 

 

 

Okay it sounds like a stupid question, but How much should I pay a band to let me rehearse with them? When I ask people in any other industry they laugh. Why do musicians think this is an ok policy?

 

I've been roaming Craig's List looking for a BAND in NYC. First of all, 90% of them are grunge, hard rock, or metal, which makes me think the musicians are all stuck in the 80s. But every time I audition for a band they start saying stuff like this...

 

"We're not looking for a player, we're looking for another member."

"We're looking for someone who's cool. Are you cool?"

"We've invested all of our time and efforts into this band, and we're looking for commitment from you. Are you ready to make that commitment?"

"Are you willing to pour your heart into this?"

 

These questions boil down to...

 

"Will you help us pay our rent on rehearsal space?"

 

 

 

I was really shocked the first time this happened to me. First time was with this indy rock band, they had great publicity and decent music, they needed a bassist. I had learned 50 minutes worth of music for the first rehearsal, I was ready the second I got in that rehearsal space to go closest bar and gig, but these guys have the balls to ask me for money. The second and third time this happened to me I wondered if this is actually the industry standard. I got into an anonymous fight with some guy on craigslist.

 

"You won't help with the burden of rent? Your loss bud, we have major labors really interested in us. You'd get laid super fast at our shows, and then the money is going to start pouring in. Good luck to you."

To which I reply...

"But you can't pay a bassist?"

 

Then, I just sucked it up, and joined the first band that didn't say a word about money, because I figure they're bearing all the expenses.

 

 

 

So my question is... when I'm just looking for a side project. When I'm looking to play backup, say a pop group wants a new bassist... Am I supposed to PAY THEM to let me be in their band?

 

 

 

Here's my Short bio. I'm not a scrub: BA in music, 22 in NYC, I've gotten paid for accompanying dancers, composing music for plays, and recording music for student film. Never joined a band outside of the college music scene.

[boxorox]

Howdy, C-D, and welcome to the forum.

 

Your question touches on a couple of topics that have been kicked around before, but what the hey?

 

Auditions work both ways. Even if they like you, you may have issues with them. If you don't drink/smoke weed/mainline antifreeze, you're not cool. You should give those guys a pass. If they are "artists" who never play gigs and want $$$ for anything, give 'em a pass. You know what I'm saying. You'll eventually find guys that are serious about gettin onstage, fun to play with, and play music you enjoy.

 

Now, when you fnd these guys, if they aren't working already, you may be asked to kick in on rehearsal space, promo material, etc. If you truly believe the band has a chance to go somewhere, that expenses will be paid by profits made, you might have to kick in. It takes some $$$ to get a business off the ground. Have an accounting of band expenses/earnings about once a month at practice to make sure nobody's getting shafted. If you don't think the money is being spent to advance the band's ambitions you can quit anytime you want.

 

Good luck. Hope you find some serious guys to play with soon.

[troyguitar]

 

These questions boil down to... "Will you help us pay our rent on rehearsal space?"

 

 

If you want to be a 'hired gun' and not a band member, you should point that out before auditioning. Band members are expected to contribute to band expenses, period.

[Khem1cal]

I had a drummer call me up and say how good he was(playing for 14yrs supposedly) and "oh btw, I don't have a snare or any cymbals, can you get them for me"

[Scafeets]

Welcome to H-C, David. Having lived and worked in NYC, I know this puts a bigger burden on bands and musicians, since rehearsal space (at any price) is hard to come by.

If you're looking to join a band, you should expect to kick in a proportionate share of the expenses after you're in. If the band is gigging, they should take it out of your share of the pay on the first gig. If they're not, you should start to pay after a couple of weeks - not up front. I say this because there's no assurance that you will like them/they will like you/you will be a good match, etc. when first starting up.

Good bass players are hard to come by, even in NYC. If you have good equipment, can read well, look right for the part and can get along, you will be ahead of 90% of the other bass-player applicants at any audition.

Be selective and only work with players that are at least as good as you, who seem to have their {censored} together, and are looking to play the same kind of stuff you really want to play. If you're going to invest yourself in a band, as opposed to being a hired gun, you have to love the music and really like the people you play it with.

One other piece of advice: Don't leave your equipment at any rehearsal space or studio until you're fully insured, and then only if you have a very high degree of confidence your stuff will still be there there next tieme you show up.

Good luck, and let us know how things are going.

[Kramerguy]

I agree with troy- I couldn't establish whether or not you rolled into the rehearsal thing with them knowing or not that you wanted to be a hired gun .. but in a democratic cover-band, there are no hired guns.. unless you guys discussed it at length up front, which also means the topic of "your share" should have come up.

 

Sounds like you have some trouble communicating - perhaps listing what you are looking for and what you aren't - might help you communicate that better to those you wish to join.

[daddymack]

I guess we need some clarification.

1) You want to join a band, but you don't feel that as a member of the band you should help pay for the rehearsal space?

Or

2) You want to work as a hired gun, and they expect you to pony up $ from what they pay you in order to rehearse?

 

if it is 1), they are right in expecting all members to share the costs...

if it is 2) unless it is a one-man show (singer songwriter, owns all the material) with a regular backing band, then hired guns are just that, and should be paid to rehearse as well.

[Cobain.David]

First of all sorry for micro managing this post, I do like getting my thoughts onto paper and I'd like to get as many of them out on this topic. Thanks for the great responses guys.

 

To be clear, these aren't cover bands that I'm joining. I'm joining bands that play original music, have somewhat of a following, and charge money at the door for gigs.

 

 

Sounds like you have some trouble communicating - perhaps listing what you are looking for and what you aren't - might help you communicate that better to those you wish to join.

 

 

Yeah, I've tried emailing people saying exactly what I want and don't want, generally I get a response back along the lines of "you're not what we're looking for". When I asked if a band was making a profit they replied "you're a dick." Like I said, the only band that I can stick with right now is one that hasn't said a word about money. But even after gigs I haven't heard a word about money. I don't feel like I can ask because I think he's going to ask me to pay him. ugh. The band isn't That good.

 

 

 

 

 

"Hired Gun." See, I look at it like this. Am I a BAND MEMBER? Or am I a FRIEND? Musicians claim this is their career, but honestly, most bands are friends playing music together for fun. They're not profitable, but they enjoy themselves, and they are Saints in their communities because they bring people together, they create events that would not exist otherwise.

 

But I'm not looking for friends to plan parties with.

 

And I'm not really looking to make a living in music, yet.

 

Honestly, I'm just trying to get laid. As a good musician with time to kill, very professional (I'll learn your discography ahead of time without lead sheets), with good equipment, and the ability to travel... I feel there's gotta be a market for that... damnit I'm CHEAP!

[troyguitar]

 

There should be a band fund . Do some gigs and if there's a profit after the price of booking the show, booking the rehearsal space, costs of the U-Haul ETC are taken out THEN we can split the profits. But if I'm a stranger who's looking for a band off of Craig's List I don't think I should be expected to do any favors. And I'm quickly running out of the ability to do anyone any favors at all.

 

 

This makes sense, I didn't think people were actually asking for money upfront before you're even really in the band. That is indeed lame and should drive you away.

[daddymack]

Again, I am not getting a very clear picture of what you are talking about.

But, if I am reading this correctly this time, they expect you to pony up $ at the audition?

That is insane.

[saditalent]

 

Honestly, I'm just trying to get laid. As a good musician with time to kill, very professional (I'll learn your discography ahead of time without lead sheets), with good equipment, and the ability to travel... I feel there's gotta be a market for that... damnit I'm CHEAP!

 

 

Hey C-D, I believe there is a market for all types of bands, some looking for side income, some looking for stardom, and some who play for stress relief and just to have fun.

 

If a band is looking for a player, they should be the ones paying for the services. You are bringing a necessary element to their band, without you (by you I mean the instrument player, not YOU necessarily) the band would fall. If the band is in its beginning stages, there will definitely be start up costs, as mentioned above, just like any other business (a band is a business). So here comes the part where you ask yourself, what do you truly want. If you are interested in gigging right away, and making side money, you will have to look for a band that has already taken the early steps in establishment. These bands are typically more critical of who they accept as they have achieved some level of success and are simply protecting themselves. If you want more say so in the band, larger percentages of profits, and that sort of thing, the band is usually starting off (or havn't achieved success yet) and yes you may have to chip in to help the band with start up costs.

 

Being a player and a member are two different things, a player would be like a studio musician, paid for by the talent or management for their time and services. A member would be an integral, (most the time)non-replaceable component of the group. They would share profits (though a player/sound musician can still be eligible for royalties depending on the contract), make decisions together, and that sort of thing.

 

I hope my post wasn't a total waste of your time heh, but all things to note.

[Johnny-Boy]

"How much do I pay a band to let me rehearse with them?"

 

You mean; how much does a band pay you for rehearsing with them, right?

 

John

[dramaticrunner]

the way i read it, you're trying to be in a band, while expecting to get treated like a session guy, but they are two different things.

 

that's nyc man, it costs 30-40 and hour for a room and rehearsals typically run 3 hours. a monthly lock out easily be 800 dollars

 

if you want to be part of the band, you should be ready to absorb your share of the cost.

 

though i do think it's weird to pay for an audition, different people expect different things.

 

now if you're "playing for" someone instead, then they should be paying you for rehearsals and for gigs. but if it's a band thing... it's expensive to rehearse, and that sucks.

 

i definitely don't think it's unreasonably to be upfront and say that you can't "invest" in the band out side of covering the actual cost of rehearsal. and if they aren't cool with them, just move on.

[Cobain.David]

To be clear... They weren't asking me to pay to audition. They told me on the day of the audition that in order to join the band I'd have to help cover rehearsal space costs. I'd have to pay $150 a month. As many suggest, this would be fine if it were taken out of my pay. Say if I made $150 in my share of the gig money, that should go back to the band. Which is fine in my mind. But I don't believe they're making money, which means the band is just a hole.

 

Some of you believe this is fine, some of you don't.

 

Some argue it's fine because that's the cost of rehearsal. Band expenses should be covered equally between all members.

 

Some argue it's not okay because you should be getting paid to rehearse.

 

My point is, it's fine if I don't get paid. But I can't make a serious investment in a band if I don't think they can cover their own expenses. This band is a financial hole that digs itself deeper every day. They were only asking $150 from me, the potential third member. Which means they're spending $450 a month, nearly a grand every two months. That's a lot of money. Adding a bass player isn't going to change that direction.

 

Financially, I should run as fast as I can.

 

 

Some bands do play just to have fun. I can't spend that kind of cash on fun, when I can play for free in my apartment without a drummer. I'd rather spend that music money on building a home studio.

 

 

 

 

The problem here is the clear distinction between player and hired gun. Players are either expected to pay by the hour or get paid by the hour. I think there's a third, better option. The leader of the band, the guy holding auditions and writing the music, fronts the money for the band expenses and then takes rehearsal space money out from gig money, and then divides the profits accordingly. If there are no profits, the band goes under. Unfortunately, it goes under slowly because so many people have delusions of fame.

[Cobain.David]

 

If a band is looking for a player, they should be the ones paying for the services. You are bringing a necessary element to their band, without you (by you I mean the instrument player, not YOU necessarily) the band would fall. If the band is in its beginning stages, there will definitely be start up costs, as mentioned above, just like any other business (a band is a business). So here comes the part where you ask yourself, what do you truly want. If you are interested in gigging right away, and making side money, you will have to look for a band that has already taken the early steps in establishment. These bands are typically more critical of who they accept as they have achieved some level of success and are simply protecting themselves. If you want more say so in the band, larger percentages of profits, and that sort of thing, the band is usually starting off (or havn't achieved success yet) and yes you may have to chip in to help the band with start up costs.

 

 

This band has supposedly toured Europe, released two CDs, has a decent website, and is planning a college tour in the US. But their finances are so bad that I don't believe they made a profit, they just used their day job money for plane rides to Europe and back. Which is Silly.

[Johnny-Boy]

"To be clear... They weren't asking me to pay to audition. They told me on the day of the audition that in order to join the band I'd have to help cover rehearsal space costs. I'd have to pay $150 a month"

 

$150 a month!!! What happened to the days when bands rehearsed free in their garage?

 

John:cool:

[Cobain.David]

If the band can't make a profit, the garage is where it belongs.

[Nijyo]

 

If the band can't make a profit, the garage is where it belongs.

 

 

This assumes that there is a garage available. For-pay practice spaces exist for a reason.

 

It's obvious that you find the idea that all band members should pay for practice space out of pocket to be ridiculous. That's fine, but there's a lot of situations where this sort of arrangement is fair and necessary.

 

It sounds like you're looking for a band that is already profitable and want to join as a full-fledged member from day 1. Good luck.

[daddymack]

Ah, so we get a bit more detail.

This sounds more like a vanity project than a working band situation.

Where are they rehearsing that costs them $450/ month?

For a trio?

Are they gigging regularly? ( A 'college tour' sounds questionable for a 3 piece band that is still looking for a bassist.)

In this particular instance, I would likely take a pass.

[dramaticrunner]

sadly 450 for a room in nyc is cheap.

 

cb, there are very few originals bands that turn a profit in nyc. And if they are already established, then they have their networks and aren't going to look for musicians on craigslist.

 

imo you should be working on your networks, and not passive aggressively insulting their inability to turn a profit. Nyc is a big place, but it's not that big. Don't burn your bridges.

 

your expectations are unrealistic... Every band that makes it spends years and years being unprofitable. If the band leader decides he wants a band that shares the cost, then sure it's not for you, but it certainly isn't wrong or crazy. Just move along.

 

market yourself as a session guy. Then people will know upfront that you have to be paid. But the gigs are gonna roll in slowely.

[Cobain.David]

I can't expect to join a band without gaining or losing money? Having a net change of Zero? I don't need to be paid, I'm asking for zero, but I can't pay for someone else's brain child.

 

But no, you're right. I understand now, I have to pay to rehearse with a band. And I never insulted these guys... until I got here. The band and the music was good, I liked the band.

[Johnny-Boy]

"Sadly 450 for a room in nyc is cheap" - dramaticrunner

 

Then I'd suggest moving to Hicksville until they get their act together. Be like Rocky Balboa and go back to your roots to train. No frills, just hard work, ya cream puff whippersnaps.

 

John

[Nijyo]

 

I can't expect to join a band without gaining or losing money? Having a net change of Zero? I don't need to be paid, I'm asking for zero, but I can't pay for someone else's brain child.

 

 

All of this sort of snarky response continues to point out the confusion in your thinking.

 

Do you want to be a full-fledged member of the band? If yes, you will, if accepted by the band, be expected to "pay in" for the rehearsal space as much as the other folks do.

 

If you just want to be a hired gun, then things may be different, but don't expect to be "part of the band" then, either.

 

You keep making it sound like "the band" is another entity other than yourself by saying "how much to let me rehearse with them"? Are you, in fact, wanting to join the band as a full member or not? If so, then quit bitching and pay your way in proportion with the other members, or hit the road and find another band (or start your own). It's a free country.

 

If I were to run a band, I'd have a band fund to pay things out of, but in this case, it sounds like they don't run that way, and you're just here to get feel-good vibes.

[MartinC]

Silly to you......but to them it's an investment in a business they believe in. If you joined their band and paid no money to rehearse, got a guaranteed 100.00 a gig, you'd join. If they then hit it big and were playing huge money gigs, you'd be entitled to .....100.00 a gig. If you want equity in a business, you have to invest.

 

Since you are talking about original bands, your going to have to look hard to find one that's making a profit after expenses. You have to forget about craigslist first of all. You have to plug into the network of working pros who play for money in bands that can pay players. You may be good enough to get that gig, but that band will already have it together, and it's likely, as a bass player, you will never be more than a sideman unless they start recording your music.

 

I'm not sure how you feel about playing covers, but that's the easiest way to break into the pro scene. The guys I know who make a living playing, play whatever pays. Do you read? Play many styles? If you want to play for money, you have to make playing for money the priority, which means playing gigs that pay no matter the music. If you find your self gigging in paying situations regularly, your name will get around and soon you may find your phone ringing with offers for paid gigs. Trolling craigslist for original bands playing your favorite style looking for members seems like a poor way to get there to me.

 

Get out of the house and go see working bands that are making money. Meet the players, play any gig you can get, forget about looking for a band that's going to take care of you, and it will eventually happen for you if you've got the goods. Focus on being of value to anyone who needs a bass player. Bass players have a lot more opportunity than a lot of other instrumentalists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This band has supposedly toured Europe, released two CDs, has a decent website, and is planning a college tour in the US. But their finances are so bad that I don't believe they made a profit, they just used their day job money for plane rides to Europe and back. Which is Silly.

 

[saditalent]

 

This band has supposedly toured Europe, released two CDs, has a decent website, and is planning a college tour in the US. But their finances are so bad that I don't believe they made a profit, they just used their day job money for plane rides to Europe and back. Which is Silly.

 

 

Sounds like they may need a manager. Managers do a lot of behind-the-scene work to keep the band in the black. A few of the many jobs a manager has is marketing/promoting, booking, and accounting/book-keeping/treasurer. A good manager dedicates his/her time into these jobs, allowing the band to do what they do best, play music. I work in a music school as well as a talent agency, and I have found that the more creative musician has very little organization/business skills. Now that obviously does not go for everyone but from my experience, that has been a revolving trend.