Drums - tiny room, or just small?

[MrJoshua]

I'll be tracking drums next week for a project we've been working on, and usually I just track them in the studio room, which is a 10'x10'x8' room with Auralex foam on the walls. It doesn't do much for bass trapping (read as, anything) but it does keep the cymbals from splashing around like mad. I feel like I get a pretty decent small-room sound here, but it's all kit - there's basically no "room" ambient sound in it, even with room mics.

 

So, I'm considering moving the drums out to the living room for this take. The living room connects directly to the kitchen/dining room with just a railing in between, so it's about sixteen feet wide and probably twenty-five feet long, plus the ceiling is higher and peaked in the middle (it follows the angle of the roof). Probably eight feet at the edges, and ten or eleven feet in the center.

 

I'll have one of the other guys from the project come out the day before tracking and help me move the drums out and get the mics set up, and we'll have a few hours in the evening to try and get drum sounds before the actual tracking session.

 

My question is, am I looking at a scenario where I'd really be better of sticking to the smaller but treated room? I'm not convinced that the living room area will really be big enough to get much useful room sound. In addition, I'll probably need to shut off the fridge and freezer before tracking as they're noisy enough that the room mics would pick it up. The kitchen and dining room are all hard surfaces with a linoleum floor, and there are several windows, so I'm a bit concerned that I'll be walking into a reflection nightmare.

 

Any thoughts or bits of advice? I might try to work up a few broadband traps over the weekend that I can suspend over the kit to at least keep the ceiling reflections down, but will this be a big enough room to sound better or am I just trading one small room for another?

 

I'm going to try it anyway, because it just takes a little time and effort and I can always move it back to the smaller room if need be, but I figured I'd see what y'all had to say about it. I've had some useful advice from this forum.

[alcohol]

The 10 x 10 room is really small. If it's treated I'd bet it would sound better than the larger living room. I would depend on artificial reverb instead. A PCM 91 or equivalent is better than a mediocre sounding natural room.

[Jimbroni]

I have a small tracking room as well. Its 10 x 15 but one of the walls is at slight angle to reduce modes. However, to create ambiance in the small room, I made a drum riser out of finished plywood. The bottom is ported all the way around and stuffed with fiberglass so it doesn't boom. Just adds a bit of verb to the drums. If you don't have a stage you could just get some plywood panels and lay em on the ground with drums sitting on top. I usually put a blanket under the kick drum, though. I don't like the kick getting too ambient.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I'd definitely give the larger room a try... but I'm a big fan of trying out, and when appropriate, utilizing the alternative acoustical environments that are available to you. However, be aware that this can take a considerable amount of time and experimentation to find what works - IOW, you should try different locations in the room for the instrument placement, different places (don't overlook adjoining rooms, hallways, etc.) for your "room mikes", DIY acoustic treatments such as blankets, sleeping bags, unwrapped rolls of fiberglass in the corners, plywood sheets, DIY compressed fiberglass bass traps, etc.

 

IMO, the larger room isn't likely to sound worse than the 10' X 10' X 8' room, which has some pretty problematic modal issues due to the dimensions, but the only way you're going to find out if you like it or not is to give it a try.

 

Good luck, have fun, and please let us know how it works out for you.

[MrJoshua]

I think I'm going to try to get at least one of the other guys out this weekend (we won't be tracking until Tuesday) to try out different arrangements in the bigger room. I have some materials to make some traps if I need to, and we'll try different kit and mic positions.

 

The kit is a Pearl Export 5-piece with a Ludwig Supraphonic 6.5"-deep snare drum, and Zildjian Z-Custom cymbals. Nothing fancy, but it's properly tuned and sounds good, and the drummer is a guy with 20 years of experience who really knows how to work the drums, which is always nice.

 

I'm going to start by close-micing kick, snare, and toms, add two room mics in a Blumlein arrangement for mid/side, and then I'll probably set up two overheads and see which I like better between them and the room mics, or a combination of the two. I may also add some close mics on the hat and ride, although I don't usually do that. If I can get a guy or two out here this weekend, we'll spend a day or two working out sounds before the actual tracking session, which will help a lot.

 

We're just going for a pretty general pop-rock sound on this, so I could probably get by with two room mics, kick and snare if I had to, but I have the channels so I'll probably record eight or ten tracks of different things and then pick and choose at mix time.

[Lee Knight]

The bigger room for sure. Just grab a snare and start walking around and smacking the thing. If you go in the center, that still puts 8 feet from the shorter walls... that might sound great but you might find that a little splashy with your cymbals against the live walls up that close. What I'd do probably:

 

Butt the drums up against one the center of one the 25 foot walls. This puts you 16 feet (less really) away from that shorter wall. But it also puts you right up against the wall behind you. Kill the reflection from the near wall behind you. Foam, 703, sleeping bags, mattress, dead bodies, whatever you got.

 

I'd use OHs, close mics, and the Blumlien out wherever it sounds good. As a matter of fact, this is what I do. I find too, that you don't want to get the Blumlien up against a wall for distance. This just makes the front and rear pickup the same almost. You better off maybe splitting the difference between the drums and the farthest corner for that Blumlien. That way you get a lot of distance from all sides of the room pair.

 

The angled ceiling should redirect the ceilings reflection. Be aware of your OH's nulls and try to get them pointing into that angle if you get too much splash reflected back in them.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I'm going to start by close-micing kick, snare, and toms, add two room mics in a Blumlein arrangement for mid/side, and then I'll probably set up two overheads and see which I like better between them and the room mics, or a combination of the two. I may also add some close mics on the hat and ride, although I don't usually do that. If I can get a guy or two out here this weekend, we'll spend a day or two working out sounds before the actual tracking session, which will help a lot.

 

If you have the channels / tracks, then by all means, do the close, overhead AND room mikes, and print them all to separate tracks.

 

One small correction - Blumlein is a coincident, crossed stereo pair of bi-directional (figure 8) mikes, while "Mid-Side" is one bi-directional, and one cardioid.

[MrJoshua]

I'm going to start by close-micing kick, snare, and toms, add two room mics in a Blumlein arrangement for mid/side, and then I'll probably set up two overheads and see which I like better between them and the room mics, or a combination of the two. I may also add some close mics on the hat and ride, although I don't usually do that. If I can get a guy or two out here this weekend, we'll spend a day or two working out sounds before the actual tracking session, which will help a lot. If you have the channels / tracks, then by all means, do the close, overhead AND room mikes, and print them all to separate tracks. One small correction - Blumlein is a coincident, crossed stereo pair of bi-directional (figure 8) mikes, while "Mid-Side" is one bi-directional, and one cardioid.

 

 

Hm. I've always thought that "mid/side" referred to the decoded tracks afterwards, while "Blumlein" referred to the physical arrangement of the mics. I know I've seen mid/side used to refer to arrangements other than cardioid/figure-8, but then again, that would hardly be the first time I've heard misapplied labels in use.

 

However, I will say that I've been using, and quite pleased with the results achieved by, two figure-8 ribbon mics in a mid/side arrangement - one mic pointed straight at the kit on the axis made by the snare and kick drums, and the other at a 90-degree angle, coincident to the first mic. Then the side track copied, the copy inverted, and those two tracks moved to a single stereo track - standard mid/side decoding, in other words. So I'm not sure if that is mid/side by the book, if that's supposed to be using one cardioid and one figure-8, but it does sound good.

 

I can go up to eighteen inputs at a time, so I'm going to try lots of different stuff with this - two inputs on the Rosetta 200, eight on the Focusrite ISA-428 converter card, and eight on the Digi002 Rack. For preamps I have two API 512c modules (kick and snare), two Great River MP-500NV modules (room mics or overheads), two FMR RNPs (probably three channels will be used for toms, another may be used for a room mic or mono overhead), a Focusrite ISA-428 (may be used for toms although they do sound good through the RNPs, or they may be used for ride and hat, then two room or overhead mics), a Groove Tubes "The Brick" (not normally used for drums, but could be interesting with a room mic), a Grace Designs Model 101 (also not normally used on drums, but worth a shot), and of course the four preamps on the Digi. Then I also have a Mackie 1604-VLZ I could use, or more likely, a Allen & Heath MixWiz3.

 

So I should have plenty of mics and preamps. If nothing else, this should be a fun learning experience.

[Music Calgary]

 

I have two API 512c modules (kick and snare), two Great River MP-500NV modules (room mics or overheads), two FMR RNPs (probably three channels will be used for toms, another may be used for a room mic or mono overhead)

 

 

Awesome combo, just did some drums with almost the identical setup. The APIs are unreal on kick and snare (I rented a 3124) and the Great Rivers (rented the 2 channel rackmount) sounded great on OHs. RNPs are super on room/toms...

 

Later I did an A/B of the Great River pres against Millennia HVs on overheads and ended up using the Millennias instead with the Great Rivers on hi-hat and room -- but the GRs sounded good on OHs. The most notable difference being that the Millennia were a one-trick pony whereas the Great River pres were very versatile.

[whitepapagold]

 

I know I've seen mid/side used to refer to arrangements other than cardioid/figure-8

 

 

No, not unless what you were reading was complete BS...

 

M/S is exactly as Phil described. Nothing else.

[MrJoshua]

No, not unless what you were reading was complete BS... M/S is exactly as Phil described. Nothing else.

 

 

Not that I consider it much of a source, but Wikipedia notes that the original description used an omni mic as the center.

 

But, as I said, I don't generally give Wikipedia that much credit as a good source.

 

However, it seems to me that as long as the "side" mic is a figure 8, you could take your pick of polar patterns for the "mic" mic, no?

[whitepapagold]

 

Not that I consider it much of a source, but Wikipedia notes that the original description used an omni mic as the center.

 

 

 

Nope... How the hell do you decode an omni signal- its decoding the fig 8 (left and right- get it fig 8) combined with a cardioid that gives you MS!

 

Beware of wikicrapedia!

[Phil O'Keefe]

A couple of articles that may be of interest...

 

Blumlein:

 

 

In that image, the two bi-directional mikes are actually aimed at the sound source (IOW, the camera that took the picture).

 

http://www.eqmag.com/article/blumlein-pair-stereo/jul-07/29600

 

Mid-Side:

 

 

http://www.eqmag.com/article/mid-side-recording/Jun-07/28990

 

Again, assuming the camera position represents the sound source, the M-S mic arrangement is shown being aimed directly at it, with the lower mic (a Soundelux E250) being a cardioid (although you can try substituting other types, such as hypercardioid), and the upper mic (a Soundelux ELUX 251) set for figure 8 and placed sideways / aimed to the sides relative to the cardioid mic.

 

Hope this helps clear up the confusion.

[whitepapagold]

Are those your mics Phil? Very nice!

 

Im dying for an RCA 44bx... But I keep buying other stuff!

 

I assume those are 74s?

[Phil O'Keefe]

Yeah, all of those mikes are mine, and yes, the RCA's are 74b "Jr Velocity" models.

[whitepapagold]

Yeah, all of those mikes are mine, and yes, the RCA's are 74b "Jr Velocity" models.

 

It made me click your link after my post to see what you have- VERY nice!

 

Too bad the SP mods are done- I would trust anyone but him. I was lucky enough to get in and out with Klaus Heyne in 3 months early this year modding my U87 so its all good now! He does amazing work, Id love to direct compare the two. Sadly my mentor sold his SP u87...

 

Its funny cause your studio is right in resource allocation- MIC LOCKER! A good room and great mics will always yield awesome results. You really don't need walls of outboard.

 

I always have to pimp my Mentor for his mics... I have a great dynamic collection and some decent Neumanns/Telefunkens but I top out with the KHU87...

 

I really want a soundelux e47! And I want to get a damn 44bx (my mentor has one) and try Blumlein with them old skool style!

 

I hate to use the word mentor so much but I never want to attach his name to my assinine online persona!

[Phil O'Keefe]

Its funny cause your studio is right in resource allocation- MIC LOCKER! A good room and great mics will always yield awesome results. You really don't need walls of outboard.

 

I went after front end and back end first - mikes and monitors - and have been filling out the "in between" stuff as I go along. Of course, I'm always trying to add to the front end stuff too - mic preamps, compressors, new mikes... like you, I'd love to get a Soundelux E47. Hopefully David Bock will start building those again... if not, I'll eventually look for a used one, or maybe give the Wunder or Peluso U47 type mikes a try.

 

Those websites are really out of date, but they are being redone by my marketing / PR weasels.

 

If anyone's interested in what I'm using, here's my (semi-comprehensive / semi-up to date) gear list:

 

Sound Sanctuary Recording Studios Gear List, June 2008

 

Main DAW: Pro Tools 7.4 HD 2 Accel, Digidesign 96 I/O Interface (2), SSL Duende, MOTU Micro Express, M-Audio MIDIsport 4X4, Steinberg MI4, Athlon 64 X2 4200 PC, 4 GB RAM, over 1 TB of hard drive storage, three monitors, Frontier Design Alpha Track control surface and Tranzport wireless remote, Lucid GENx6 master word clock.

 

Secondary "softsynth / Gigastudio" PC: Athlon 64 3200 with 2 GB RAM, Frontier Design Wavecenter.

 

Other software: Sony Sound Forge, Steinberg Cubase SX, Cakewalk Sonar, Har-Bal 2.0, Drumagog, Fxpansion VST to RTAS wrapper. Various plug ins and virtual instruments from Eventide (Anthology II), Waves, Sony Oxford, Princeton Digital, AIR, Line 6, Digidesign, Antares (Autotune), Bomb Factory, Tascam (Gigastudio), Yamaha, Massenburg Design Works, TC Electronic, Voxengo, TC Helicon, Native Instruments, Chandler Ltd. / EMI / Abbey Road, IK Multimedia, etc.

 

Monitors / headphones: ADAM S3A, modified / soffit mounted JBL 4412, ADAM A7, Avantone Mixcubes, Simon Systems CB-4 headphone distribution boxes (2), Alesis RA-100 and Crest FA-901 amplifiers, Presonus Monitor Station, Sony, Fostex, AKG and Extreme Isolation headphones.

 

Mixing consoles: Yamaha 01V96 V2 and 01X automated digital consoles with mLAN card, Studio Manager 2 software, Yamaha i88X mic preamp / audio interface.

 

Microphone preamps / EQ's / Channel Strips / Compressors: Neve 8801 Channel Strip with Neve Recall software, Vintech Dual 72 (two channel Neve 1272 clone), UREI LA-4 (2), Aphex 240 dual channel compressor / gate, Joemeek VC3Q (2), FMR RNC, RNP, RNLA, dBx 166 XL, API 3124 four channel preamp, Groove Tubes The Brick tube preamp, Orban 622b two channel four band parametric EQ, Presonus EQ3B.

 

Power conditioning: Monster Power Pro 2500 (2) and PC 800 HP (3), On-Line Power 1KVA AC isolation transformer.

 

Microphones:

 

(Condenser) Soundelux ELUX 251 and E250, Stephen Paul modified AKG C-414EB, Oktava MC012 (2), LOMO M3, Rode NTK, Hosa QCM-2 and QCM-3, sE Gemini and SE-2A, Groove Tubes GT33 (2), MXL V67i, Audio Technica AT4041 (2) and ATM450, CAD Equitek II (2), Optimus PZM, Shure SM82, Altec 626A.

 

(Ribbon) RCA 74b (2), Beyer M160, E/V V-1A, Shure 315, Groove Tubes Velo-8.

 

(Dynamic) E/V RE20 and 664 (3), Shure SM57 (4), SM12, SM58, Unidyne I 565SD, Unidyne III 545SD, AKG D1000E (2) and D190E (3), Audix i5 (2) and D2 (3), Senheiser MD421 and e609, Yamaha Subkick, Audio Technica ATM650, ATM250, ATM250DE, Pro 25 (2) and AT9100, Astatic 332.

 

Direct boxes, reamping and interfacing: Radial X Amp, GRM TX-1 Missing Link, various DIY DI, splitter and speaker load boxes.

 

Hardware Rack Effects: Ensoniq DP/4 and DP/4+, Lexicon MX300 and LXP-15, Yamaha SPX900 with remote.

 

Recorders: Otari MX5050 1/2" 8 track analog reel to reel, MX5050 IIb half track 1/4" reel to reel, Tascam 202 MkIII dual cassette, Alesis ADAT, Sony PCM-R300 DAT.

 

Keyboards & modules: Fatar Studio 90, Kurzweil SP88x, Ensoniq ESQ-1, M-Audio Oxygen 8 V2, Yamaha PSR-15, E-Mu ESI-32, Proformance /1+ and Proteus 1 (2), Roland R-8M, U-220, JV-30 and GI-10 guitar to MIDI interface, KMX 8X8 MIDI patchbay, Alesis D4 and NanoSynth.

 

Guitars: 91 Rickenbacker 610, 95 Fender American Standard Stratocaster, Gretsch Pro Jet, Fender American 57 Reissue Strat, 01 Epiphone Casino, 97 Epiphone Ltd Edition Les Paul, 05 Danelectro Baritone, 94 Fender Telecaster Special, Danelectro DC-12, 94 Taylor 510 and Baby Taylor, Carlo Robelli CSX65C, Hohner HG-12D, Ibanez SR1100 bass, Rogue VB-100 Violin Bass.

 

Amps: "Blackfaced" 71 Fender Princeton Amp, THD Univalve with Fender 2X12 cabinet and assortment of different vintage tube types, 84 Fender Super Champ, 83 Fender Princeton Reverb II, Vox AC15cc with Weber Blue Dog AlNiCo speaker, Pignose, Guytronix Gilmore Jr, Line 6 Bass Pod and Pod XT with FBV foot controller, SWR LA12.

 

Guitar pedals: Over 40 different pedals from Diamond, Lovetone, Eventide, HBE, Line 6, Danelectro, OL Circuits, BYOC, Malekko, Boss, Morley, Loooper, Toadworks, Pigtronix, Effector 13, Fulltone, MAD, Electro-Harmonix, Ibanez, Jim Dunlop and Digitech.

 

Drums & Percussion: 5 pc. DW / Pacific FS Series Birch fusion sized kit, Paiste and Zildjian cymbals, various MIDI trigger pads and pedals, "toybox" of small handheld percussion (rosewood claves, shakers, sleigh bells, tambourines, etc).

[whitepapagold]

Damn, update the freakin site man!

 

I knew you had HD but not the rest! A lot could be learned by the new engineers on WHERE you spent your money and WHEN! They should ALL see that link...

 

I was able to skip the crazy mics JUST because I work 90% itb. Just needed instrument mics as opposed to vocal. But slowly...

 

I want a 44bx (yes Ill say it again), an E47, a couple MD421s and to get my Telefunken M280 (neumann km84s) modified by Klaus and my locker will, IN THEORY, be complete.

 

Very cool rig Phil!

 

OH and its not like ANYONE here would recognize my Mentors name- hes just an OG in the OC from the 70s! And its across the street from the beach.... That doesn't hurt! (well actually its pretty tough on the gear....)

[MrJoshua]

...although you can try substituting other types, such as hypercardioid...

 

That's all I was saying before. What makes it mid/side is how you aim the microphones and treat the recorded signal.

 

I think we're getting sort of caught up in semantics here.

 

 

Whitepapagold - I wasn't talking about "decoding" an omni signal, but since you brought it up, polar patterns only change how much of the signal coming from that direction is recorded, NOT the phase of the incoming signal. An omni mic would not be the best choice for the "side" part of a mid/side pair, but not because it can't be "decoded" - it simply would pick up too much of the "mid" signal, which would decrease the separation between the two. But you could still do it.

 

That said, I think what we have here is a good example of the limitations of text as form of communications.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Damn, update the freakin site man!

 

I know... I know... We're working on them.

 

I knew you had HD but not the rest! A lot could be learned by the new engineers on WHERE you spent your money and WHEN! They should ALL see that link...

 

I'm not sure which link you're referring to.

 

I should probably start a thread about prioritizing gear purchases... or write an article about that.

 

I was able to skip the crazy mics JUST because I work 90% itb. Just needed instrument mics as opposed to vocal. But slowly... I want a 44bx (yes Ill say it again), an E47, a couple MD421s and to get my Telefunken M280 (neumann km84s) modified by Klaus and my locker will, IN THEORY, be complete.

 

You should look at Wes Dooley's RCA 44 re-creations - they're very nice. http://www.wesdooley.com/

 

Very cool rig Phil!

 

Thank you.

 

OH and its not like ANYONE here would recognize my Mentors name- hes just an OG in the OC from the 70s! And its across the street from the beach.... That doesn't hurt! (well actually its pretty tough on the gear.... )

 

Yeah, the salt probably isn't good in terms of corrosion. Are you in HB CA?

 

Now you have me curious about the studio and your mentor (good mentors, like good assistants, can be hard to find - congrats on finding one you like). If you'd like to keep it private (my lips are sealed), you could PM their names to me...

[Phil O'Keefe]

An omni mic would not be the best choice for the "side" part of a mid/side pair, but not because it can't be "decoded" - it simply would pick up too much of the "mid" signal, which would decrease the separation between the two. But you could still do it.

 

Not to "get too wrapped up in semantics", but really, you can't use a omni mic as the "side" mic in a M-S setup. Mid-Side requires a bi-directional mic for the "sides" - using anything else would not cancel out when collapsed to mono. While a cardioid mic is traditionally used as the center mic, you can, as I said before, try using different polar patterns for the mid, but it has to be a bi-directional mic for the sides, or it's not going to be a true M-S configuration.

[whitepapagold]

An omni mic would not be the best choice for the "side" part of a mid/side pair, but not because it can't be "decoded" - it simply would pick up too much of the "mid" signal, which would decrease the separation between the two. But you could still do it. Not to "get too wrapped up in semantics", but really, you can't use a omni mic as the "side" mic in a M-S setup. Mid-Side requires a bi-directional mic for the "sides" - using anything else would not cancel out when collapsed to mono. While a cardioid mic is traditionally used as the center mic, you can, as I said before, try using different polar patterns for the mid, but it has to be a bi-directional mic for the sides, or it's not going to be a true M-S configuration.

 

Thanks Phil, I can't listen to this guy be wrong anymore and try to make it seem right... Semantics? No, just wrong.

 

PMed on the mentor.

[whitepapagold]

OH and when I said click the link- the link in your sig with the old gear list. You read along thinking good enough but not great, then you hit the mics and go OH, ok...

 

And you can click here to see my gear list

 

http://www.myspace.com/theartistnotformerlyknown

[Phil O'Keefe]

I meant no offense to MrJoshua. We're talking the accepted traditional definition, and he's talking about the extended definition.

 

I wouldn't say "wrong" in the sense of him trying / using different mic configurations... While I believe it's important to learn the traditions and the technical, I don't think it's good to get into ruts either. I've got a few wacky things I do (or theoretical things I'd like to try, or see get built and then try) and I'm all for experimentation and trying different things. You can learn a lot that way.

 

In most Big Rooms, using something other than a cardioid / bi-directional coincident pairing and calling it "M-S" will probably get you at least a sideways glance or a smirk... but then again, if it sounds like the Voice of God at sunrise to everyone present, you can call it whatever you want.

[Music Calgary]

Just curious -- do you ever use spaced omni Phil? For anything specific?