Members whitepapagold Posted August 10, 2008 Members Share Posted August 10, 2008 I meant no offense to MrJoshua. We're talking the accepted traditional definition, and he's talking about the extended definition. I wouldn't say "wrong" in the sense of him trying / using different mic configurations... While I believe it's important to learn the traditions and the technical, I don't think it's good to get into ruts either. I've got a few wacky things I do (or theoretical things I'd like to try, or see get built and then try) and I'm all for experimentation and trying different things. You can learn a lot that way. In most Big Rooms, using something other than a cardioid / bi-directional coincident pairing and calling it "M-S" will probably get you at least a sideways glance or a smirk... but then again, if it sounds like the Voice of God at sunrise to everyone present, you can call it whatever you want. Youre so nice Phil... But hes wrong and I meant offense... JK. But the only switchable aspect is cardioid vs hypercardioid which is STILL cardioid... Though you butter it up and ice it, its like pulling teeth getting people to put their egos in their pockets and learn for 3 seconds... If you switched the cardioid with omni, it wouldn't work... You CAN do it, but it doesn't work... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Music Calgary Posted August 10, 2008 Members Share Posted August 10, 2008 I meant offense Ahhh, now *that's* community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 Just curious -- do you ever use spaced omni Phil? For anything specific? Occasionally. I used to use them fairly often when I would do classical recitals and concert performances. Pardon the expression, but in a good room, they can sound wicked on choirs In a nice room, spaced omnis can work well on a drum kit - Earthworks has a three mike (two omni, one cardioid) setup that sounds really nice on drums. Spaced omnis can also work with horn sections, although I usually prefer getting in closer with ribbons and directional dynamic mikes for more brassy tones. Spaced omnis without any high pass filtering can give you huge sounding bottom, which can be a problem in some rooms. They will pick up anything that's going on in the room - including sonic gremlins - and generally you have to really watch your placement; if you get them too far out, you wind up with too much "room" and weak stereo, if you get in too close, you can wind up with a hole in the middle of the stereo image. That's where a Decca tree can come in handy (which adds a third mike in the center). Oh, and don't forget to collapse to mono to see if you have any cancellation issues, because that can also be a problem. The general rule of thumb for placement is kind of like a letter T. Imagine you're looking at the stage from overhead - the sound source is located at the bottom of the T, and the mikes are placed at either end of the T's top / horizontal bar. If the vertical bar of the T, in other words, the distance the mikes are in front of the source, is say, six feet, then the mikes should be placed outwards to either side of that center line by 2-3'; one third to one half of that 6' distance, in equal amounts, to either side of the center... and 4-6' from each other. The larger the source (a choir, as opposed to a solo instrument), the further back and wider you'll probably need to go. The further back, the more ambiance you'll get, and the closer in, the more direct sound - but you'll definitely catch more room than you would with directional mikes, which is why a good room is really important. Because they require care in placement, a good sounding room, and careful listening and attention to detail by the engineer, spaced omnis are sometimes passed over in favor of "safer / easier" techniques like XY stereo, but it's a useful technique to have in your bag of tricks. Like most stereo techniques, it has its strengths and weaknesses; the trick is to use the appropriate technique, at the right time, in the right room and on the right source for the sound you're after... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Music Calgary Posted August 10, 2008 Members Share Posted August 10, 2008 Folks, now *that* is a reply. Such awesome advice, I feel totally re-motivated to keep trying. I've been trying spaced omni when I can because I've heard so many superb recordings made that way but I need to get better results. Inevitably I seem to end up with too much room or inadequate sounds. Thanks Phil, your expertise is deeply appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted August 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted August 10, 2008 An omni mic would not be the best choice for the "side" part of a mid/side pair, but not because it can't be "decoded" - it simply would pick up too much of the "mid" signal, which would decrease the separation between the two. But you could still do it. Not to "get too wrapped up in semantics", but really, you can't use a omni mic as the "side" mic in a M-S setup. Mid-Side requires a bi-directional mic for the "sides" - using anything else would not cancel out when collapsed to mono. While a cardioid mic is traditionally used as the center mic, you can, as I said before, try using different polar patterns for the mid, but it has to be a bi-directional mic for the sides, or it's not going to be a true M-S configuration. I'm going to have to try this later to make sure, but it seems reasonable that copying and inverting a signal from an omni mic, then combining those two signals with a center channel signal from another mic at a 90-degree angle, should still yield decent results. Anything recorded directly off-axis to the microphone's element will be cancelled out by the combination with the inverted signal, theoretically, since it would have the same phase relation to the mic from either side. But it isn't something I've tried. You're most likely (read as, almost certainly) right, and you certainly have more experience with microphone techniques than I do. I just like to try things for myself. Whitepapagold: It would behoove you to take a page from Phil's book and try to have a polite conversation rather than acting offensive. Since you're an expert on this, though, perhaps you can tell me WHY it's imperative that only a cardioid or hypercardioid be used on the center channel? Besides that fact that EVERYONE just MUST know that's the only way it's done. I mean, I'm trying to understand exactly what the limitations are here, and no offense, but if you're going to tell me how wrong I am, I'd appreciate you expounding on the topic at hand instead of just rolling your eyes. You've tried switching a cardioid with an omni, and it didn't work? I mean, I'm just asking... What about a figure-8? I've used a matched pair of figure-8 mics before (I'm partial to ribbon mics on drums) and they work, but they aren't cardioid. I mean, I'm just trying to get you to put your ego in your pocket and have a rational conversation, but it's like pulling teeth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members whitepapagold Posted August 10, 2008 Members Share Posted August 10, 2008 I'm going to have to try this later to make sure, but it seems reasonable that copying and inverting a signal from an omni mic, then combining those two signals with a center channel signal from another mic at a 90-degree angle, should still yield decent results. Anything recorded directly off-axis to the microphone's element will be cancelled out by the combination with the inverted signal, theoretically, since it would have the same phase relation to the mic from either side. But it isn't something I've tried. You're most likely (read as, almost certainly) right, and you certainly have more experience with microphone techniques than I do. I just like to try things for myself. Whitepapagold: It would behoove you to take a page from Phil's book and try to have a polite conversation rather than acting offensive. Since you're an expert on this, though, perhaps you can tell me WHY it's imperative that only a cardioid or hypercardioid be used on the center channel? Besides that fact that EVERYONE just MUST know that's the only way it's done. I mean, I'm trying to understand exactly what the limitations are here, and no offense, but if you're going to tell me how wrong I am, I'd appreciate you expounding on the topic at hand instead of just rolling your eyes. You've tried switching a cardioid with an omni, and it didn't work? I mean, I'm just asking... What about a figure-8? I've used a matched pair of figure-8 mics before (I'm partial to ribbon mics on drums) and they work, but they aren't cardioid. I mean, I'm just trying to get you to put your ego in your pocket and have a rational conversation, but it's like pulling teeth... Dude, I tire severly of you trying to make 2 + 2 = 5. The fact that you STILL insist on arguing when you are CLUELESS, regardless of whether Phil is nice enough to ignore that, is why you get the treatment. You are ignorant and arguing the world is flat- go for it, fall off the edge! You are a fool! You asked a question and are STILL arguing it when you are 100% wrong. Its actually AMAZING... You don't get a L/R decodeable signal from Omni... No matter how many times you post... And Im sure this will continue on but tonight, I broke my fever and my sinuses have cleared so I will go back to actually RUNNING a studio and you can argue 2+2=5 all you want! Thanks to Del Taco inferno sauce for finishing the job! Viva El Ignorante! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Music Calgary Posted August 10, 2008 Members Share Posted August 10, 2008 Dude, I tire severly of you trying to make 2 + 2 = 5. Apparently not that severely... Or that tired... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alcohol Posted August 10, 2008 Members Share Posted August 10, 2008 Delight in being rude is the sign of an eqo maniac. No? Maybe a spoiled child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted August 10, 2008 Author Members Share Posted August 10, 2008 Dude, I tire severly of you trying to make 2 + 2 = 5. The fact that you STILL insist on arguing when you are CLUELESS, regardless of whether Phil is nice enough to ignore that, is why you get the treatment. You are ignorant and arguing the world is flat- go for it, fall off the edge! You are a fool! You asked a question and are STILL arguing it when you are 100% wrong. Its actually AMAZING... You don't get a L/R decodeable signal from Omni... No matter how many times you post... And Im sure this will continue on but tonight, I broke my fever and my sinuses have cleared so I will go back to actually RUNNING a studio and you can argue 2+2=5 all you want! Thanks to Del Taco inferno sauce for finishing the job! Viva El Ignorante! Sigh. Listen, I'm trying to spur discussion of the underlying theory behind a particular mic technique (including what types of microphones should be used and WHY various patterns will or won't work) in the hopes of learning something. I don't like to stop at "this is how it's done" unless I understand WHY it's done that way. I've said several times that between Phil and me, Phil is BY FAR the more experienced and knowledgeable. I'm not questioning his knowledge - I'm just trying to expand my own. When we understand how something operates, we can take that knowledge and use it to come up with innovative applications and techniques. So I don't just want to know that everyone uses cardioids for the center channel and figure-8 for the sides. I want to know why, and if other patterns would work, and if so, what they would sound like and how it would differ from the norm. If I come across as rude or stubborn, I apologize. That's what I meant earlier when I said I thought we were getting bogged down in semantics - I meant that I, not y'all, was getting tripped up in my efforts to get my question across. I accept Phil's definition of mid/side - that isn't the issue. The issue is, once we've defined convention, why not talk about why it's convention and what you can do to defy it, and the results you can expect? I certainly meant no offense. But I do phrase things poorly sometimes, and I think this is a case of me not coming across clearly after Phil's original answer. I accept that the definition of mid/side is cardioid + figure-8. But I also KNOW that using two figure-8 mics will yield good results. Is it technically mid/side recording? Apparently not. But it's the same technique, using a different polar pattern, so I've no idea what to call it. Similarly, substituting other polar patterns is by definition incorrect ... but that doesn't mean it won't yield results of some sort, and I'm curious to know what they are, and WHY they are. So, I've been referring to those substituted mics as a mid/side, when by definition they aren't, I suppose. But if the end result is a center mono channel and a stereo pair of side channels where one is the inverse of the other, then in practice, it would be very similar to using a mid/side pair. And other than questioning what kind of mics would yield results, that's all I've been trying to say. I just haven't been saying it very well. Also, 2+2 can equal five. Didn't you ever take any statistics classes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 You are a fool! We don't talk to one another like that on this forum. I allow - even encourage - strong debate and discussions, and different POV's (even when "wrong"), but I ask that everyone please refrain from name calling and personal attacks. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 BTW, just for you guys, I ran an M-S setup (SE SE2-A Mid, Groove Tubes Velo 8 Sides) on room mikes while tracking drums today, and at the end of the day, I had the drummer play a pattern for a few bars... first with the cardioid capsule on the SE2-A that we had been using all day, and then again with an omni capsule on it for comparison. I didn't use any encoding, and just printed each of the two mikes to a separate track. If anyone's interested, I'll clone the side mic, flip the phase on the clone, and then upload each version (3 tracks in each) to my server and let you guys experiment with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Music Calgary Posted August 11, 2008 Members Share Posted August 11, 2008 If anyone's interested One vote for "extremely interested". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted August 11, 2008 Author Members Share Posted August 11, 2008 BTW, just for you guys, I ran an M-S setup (SE SE2-A Mid, Groove Tubes Velo 8 Sides) on room mikes while tracking drums today, and at the end of the day, I had the drummer play a pattern for a few bars... first with the cardioid capsule on the SE2-A that we had been using all day, and then again with an omni capsule on it for comparison. I didn't use any encoding, and just printed each of the two mikes to a separate track. If anyone's interested, I'll clone the side mic, flip the phase on the clone, and then upload each version (3 tracks in each) to my server and let you guys experiment with them. I'm interested. I'm planning on doing a similar experiment this afternoon, when a buddy comes over to help me set up drum mics for tomorrow's session. I figure I'll set up a 414 as the center mic and try it that way with a Cascade Fathead II figure-8 ribbon as the side, and switch polar patterns on the 414. Then I'm also going to put a Blue Baby Bottle cardioid up as the center mic, and put the 414 up as the side mic and try different polar patterns that way. I'm expecting to get some weird results! It should be educational. It may be a few days before I have the chance to decode and post anything, but I'll try to get something online for other people to check out as soon as I can. edit: We ran out of time before doing the experiment, but after the tracking session tomorrow I'll see if I can get a guy or two to stick around so I can try some different polar patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Music Calgary Posted August 11, 2008 Members Share Posted August 11, 2008 Had to work with a Mackie 800R recently and was surprised to find that it has a built in m/s decoder. Turned out to be handy and sounded reasonably good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IsildursBane Posted August 14, 2008 Members Share Posted August 14, 2008 An omni mic would not be the best choice for the "side" part of a mid/side pair, but not because it can't be "decoded" - it simply would pick up too much of the "mid" signal, which would decrease the separation between the two. But you could still do it. Not to "get too wrapped up in semantics", but really, you can't use a omni mic as the "side" mic in a M-S setup. Mid-Side requires a bi-directional mic for the "sides" - using anything else would not cancel out when collapsed to mono. While a cardioid mic is traditionally used as the center mic, you can, as I said before, try using different polar patterns for the mid, but it has to be a bi-directional mic for the sides, or it's not going to be a true M-S configuration. It may not be a true M-S, but using an omni for the "side" would certainly collapse to mono, because the "sides" are hard-panned copies of the same signal w/ the polarity reversed on one side. You could use a sine wave as the "side" and it would still collapse to mono. FWIW, there's a video up on Mercenary's Meth Lab site of the guy's recording a bunch of glass breaking using an M/S pair along with a spaced pair: http://www.methodsandapplicationslaboratory.com/media/MethLab-GlassFX.mov -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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