MPA shuts down powertabs!!

[Songman68]

This crap with the tab sites is just ludicrous. The MPA is a bunch of greedy ass pricks.

[SteinbergerHack]

I really don't see how they can legally do that. Can anyone explain that? How is offering free user-created tabs in violation of any law?

Unless you wrote the song and/or own the publishing rights, you don't have the legal right to distribute it in ANY form - period. The fact that you did the transcription yourself means nothing, and the fact that it is a free distribution doesn't make it any less of an infringement (though I'd bet that it limits the potential monetary damages finding).

Copyright law is pretty clear, and the division of rights for mechanicals, sheet music, performance rights, etc. are all part of a publishing contract. If you're not part of that contract, you don't have the legal right to distribute it.

Also, from an ethical standpoint, if the material is availalable in a legitimate form (and a lot of that material IS available in accurate transcriptions), by providing it for no charge, you are reducing the market for the sale of the legal transcription, thus taking money out of the publishers' and writers' pockets. For myself, if I need something specific and it is available, I buy it. [FWIW, there are quite a few books of very accurate transcriptions, both tab and standard notation. You have to look harder, but several of the publishers have started to print two versions of guitar based material; the old standard which is piano-vocal (worthless), and 'accurate tab' guitar-based versions.]

That said, from an ethical standpoint, I don't see a moral problem with distributing 'amateur' transcriptions of material that is no longer in print, or for which there is no legally-available copy for sale. However, if enough 'junk' tabs are out there, it may well reduce the financial incentive for people to take the time to do really good transcriptions - would you pay for a 100% accurate transcription if you could get an 85% version for free?

I'll also say that the vast majority of transcriptions I've seen on PowerTabs weren't really that good. 1) They are mostly incomplete, 2) more often than not that fingerings were/are terrible - you can easily hear that they aren't right, 3) there are lots of note errors. Yes, there are some that are decent, and sometimes even a rough tab can get you started quicker than a purely by-ear approach. I have to say, though, that the tab books I've purchased are FAR better than the average internet tab, and worth paying for.

[tlbonehead]

That said, from an ethical standpoint, I don't see a moral problem with distributing 'amateur' transcriptions of material that is no longer in print, or for which there is no legally-available copy for sale. However, if enough 'junk' tabs are out there, it may well reduce the financial incentive for people to take the time to do really good transcriptions - would you pay for a 100% accurate transcription if you could get an 85% version for free? I'll also say that the vast majority of transcriptions I've seen on PowerTabs weren't really that good. 1) They are mostly incomplete, 2) more often than not that fingerings were/are terrible - you can easily hear that they aren't right, 3) there are lots of note errors. Yes, there are some that are decent, and sometimes even a rough tab can get you started quicker than a purely by-ear approach. I have to say, though, that the tab books I've purchased are FAR better than the average internet tab, and worth paying for.

Yep, I just don't get why this seems so hard to understand for a few people.

[cogdog]

This is just a freaking bunch of crap. That was the best site out there. The transcriptions were all individual, not copied from some worthless tab book that doesn't even follow the actual song. I am just in shock! Greedy bastards.

 

 

That sucks man, I remember when they first shut down the OLGA site, I was very pissed and shocked, what's next private guitar lessons were the teacher has you learn a song "in the style of..." F'n BS, I would understand if it were scanned in pages for an actual book or something

[tlbonehead]

That sucks man, I remember when they first shut down the OLGA site, I was very pissed and shocked, what's next private guitar lessons were the teacher has you learn a song "in the style of..." F'n BS, I would understand if it were scanned in pages for an actual book or something

You think these sites should ignore the law?

[cogdog]

You think these sites should ignore the law?

 

 

 

The law, last time I checked is open to Interputation, not by me or you of coarse, but by the supreme court which is where a case like this needs to get resolved. Just because your about to be sued by an industry gaint doesn't mean you did anything wrong.

[SteinbergerHack]

The law, last time I checked is open to Interputation, not by me or you of coarse, but by the supreme court which is where a case like this needs to get resolved. Just because your about to be sued by an industry gaint doesn't mean you did anything wrong.

 

 

 

1) The word is 'interpretation'. The concepts you are trying to invoke are 'legal precedent', and or 'judicial review'. There is a lot of precedent case law already on the books, and it supports this action; the existing copyright laws were subjected to judicial review many, many years ago.

 

2) Have you ever sold a song?

 

3) Have you ever been a party to - or even reviewed - a publishing contract?

 

This does not need to be further resolved in court - the existing case law surrounding intellectual property and copyrights is exceedingly clear. As someone who actually HAS sold material and negotiated publishing contracts (as well as having a few active patents), I am in full agreement with this step.

 

Now, you might be able to make a case that it is not the site admin who has directly violated the law, per se, (which effectively makes all of the users of PT legally liable) but it is very clear that distributing unlicensed transcriptions of copyrighted material is in violation of the law. If a party is knowingly supporting an illegal act, it is clear that they are an accomplice to the act (aiding and abetting), and are thus at least partially responsible for the activity.

[tomh777]

Where's Tom with his bastard coated bastards sig? bastards.

 

 

 

Just for you DC...

[Speed_Racer71]

i guess the next step is when you walk into your teachers studio and ask him/her to teach/transcribe your favorite song youll get .."sorry cant, copyright laws etc" :poke:

[Lucio]

I'll also say that the vast majority of transcriptions I've seen on PowerTabs weren't really that good. 1) They are mostly incomplete, 2) more often than not that fingerings were/are terrible - you can easily hear that they aren't right, 3) there are lots of note errors. Yes, there are some that are decent, and sometimes even a rough tab can get you started quicker than a purely by-ear approach. I have to say, though, that the tab books I've purchased are FAR better than the average internet tab, and worth paying for.

 

 

I disagree. I've seen a lot of books that are less accurate than the powertab. Record labels put about as much effort into making tab books as they do into promoting Izzy Stradlin's records.

[tlbonehead]

1) The word is 'interpretation'. The concepts you are trying to invoke are 'legal precedent', and or 'judicial review'. There is a lot of precedent case law already on the books, and it supports this action; the existing copyright laws were subjected to judicial review many, many years ago. 2) Have you ever sold a song? 3) Have you ever been a party to - or even reviewed - a publishing contract? This does not need to be further resolved in court - the existing case law surrounding intellectual property and copyrights is exceedingly clear. As someone who actually HAS sold material and negotiated publishing contracts (as well as having a few active patents), I am in full agreement with this step. Now, you might be able to make a case that it is not the site admin who has directly violated the law, per se, (which effectively makes all of the users of PT legally liable) but it is very clear that distributing unlicensed transcriptions of copyrighted material is in violation of the law. If a party is knowingly supporting an illegal act, it is clear that they are an accomplice to the act (aiding and abetting), and are thus at least partially responsible for the activity.

For those of us who have actually sold songs, or even just copywrited them, you tend to see both sides of the issue with these things. Actually you shouldn't have to have done so to be able to be unbiased, but I guess it helps.

[tlbonehead]

i guess the next step is when you walk into your teachers studio and ask him/her to teach/transcribe your favorite song youll get .."sorry cant, copyright laws etc" :poke:

Ya, that's the same thing as putting it on the net for everyone to take advantage of.

[cogdog]

If the issue was so clear then I would think the MPA would have already sued rather than threating to sue. The fact is MPA will never sue, because then the final descision will be in the judge and jurys hands and not there own, we will see how this plays out, it will be interesting. To say that any law is crystal clear and definative is flawed logic from the start, if that reasoning were true then we would not need to be called for jury duty, elect judges and so forth, I'm all for the courts to decide this and whatever they decide I will live by, I have faith in our justice system. To say that it has already been decided is foolish no matter what side you may be on, this story has yet to be played out.

[tlbonehead]

If the issue was so clear then I would think the MPA would have already sued rather than threating to sue. The fact is MPA will never sue, because then the final descision will be in the judge and jurys hands and not there own, we will see how this plays out, it will be interesting. To say that any law is crystal clear and definative is flawed logic from the start, if that reasoning were true then we would not need to be called for jury duty, elect judges and so forth, I'm all for the courts to decide this and whatever they decide I will live by, I have faith in our justice system. To say that it has already been decided is foolish no matter what side you may be on, this story has yet to be played out.

 

Yes, but put yourself in their shoes. If there is a threat of a lawsuit and law certainly can be read to say that you are in the wrong, wouldn't you be tempted to back away from trying to challenge it, if losing the suit had major repercussions?

[Grantus]

Free tab sites reduce the demand for printed sheet music, simple as that.

 

I don't see this as much different as the RIAA trying to shut down free P2P sites. (Their lawsuits against users are a load of crap, but that's different.)

 

By the way, you can download accurate tab for a small fee at several sites, including Musicnotes.com and Sheetmusicdirect.us

[SteinbergerHack]

If the issue was so clear then I would think the MPA would have already sued rather than threating to sue.

Think like a corporate lawyer and you'll understand why they did it this way. If you know you're extremely likely to win, you don't have to actually sue. Threatening the suit action is likely to get the same net effect, but at a far lower cost for all parties involved.

The fact is MPA will never sue, because then the final descision will be in the judge and jurys hands and not there own, we will see how this plays out, it will be interesting.

I think that this view was proven to be incorrect during the Napster trials. If they need to, they absolutely WILL file suit; not doing so would be abrogation of their corporate responsibility, which could get the officers sued.

To say that any law is crystal clear and definative is flawed logic from the start, if that reasoning were true then we would not need to be called for jury duty, elect judges and so forth, I'm all for the courts to decide this and whatever they decide I will live by, I have faith in our justice system. To say that it has already been decided is foolish no matter what side you may be on, this story has yet to be played out.

Right, OK. I suggest you tell your local judge that parking laws, DWI BAC levels and speed limits aren't 'crystal clear and definative'[sic]. Juries only determine guilt or innocence based on the law; judges oversee the administration of the court process (often explaining the law to the juries prior to sending them in to find a verdict), and sometimes find guilt or innocence when no jury is seated. Laws are put into place by the legislature, and judges only have the authority to determine the constitutionality of those laws, and only when there has been a valid challenged issued in court; a judge cannot legislate from the bench, nor can he change what the law states. The copyright laws were challenged for constitutionality long ago, and remain in place as they are stated.

While it may be true that no judge or jury has yet explicitly declared that this distribution system was in violation of the copyright laws, it is pretty darned clear to anyone who understands the issue. That's why they (PT) backed down - they know that it is highly unlikely that they could avoid losing in the courts were it to be adjudicated.

[lndianScout]

with programs like "save the music" and others, then shutting down sites like this for people to learn from is ignorant in my opinion.

 

and what right does a MOVIE association have to shut down a MUSIC site..

 

our govt's stupidity in action..

[NickCaveFan]

Free tab sites reduce the demand for printed sheet music, simple as that. I don't see this as much different as the RIAA trying to shut down free P2P sites. (Their lawsuits against users are a load of crap, but that's different.) By the way, you can download accurate tab for a small fee at several sites, including Musicnotes.com and Sheetmusicdirect.us

 

 

Yes, but they seem to only have those popular artists I'll never want to learn songs from. No Sons and Daughters (checked both - 0), 16-18 Pixies songs and none under either Frank Black or Black Francis. What I got when I searched is Black Sabbath and Clint Black. Hal Leonard does off a 72 page book of Pixies stuff but the site doesn't list what songs are in it. I'll bet they are the same 16-18 or close to it.

[Grantus]

 

with programs like "save the music" and others, then shutting down sites like this for people to learn from is ignorant in my opinion. and what right does a MOVIE association have to shut down a MUSIC site.. our govt's stupidity in action..

 

 

MPA (Music Publishers Association) not MPAA.

 

Copyright laws are stupid?

[Grantus]

 

Yes, but they seem to only have those popular artists I'll never want to learn songs from. No Sons and Daughters (checked both - 0), 16-18 Pixies songs and none under either Frank Black or Black Francis. What I got when I searched is Black Sabbath and Clint Black. Hal Leonard does off a 72 page book of Pixies stuff but the site doesn't list what songs are in it. I'll bet they are the same 16-18 or close to it.

 

 

Oh, sorry, I misread the post above. Never mind.

[lndianScout]

MPA (Music Publishers Association) not MPAA. Copyright laws are stupid?

 

 

 

music copyrights are stupid yes..

 

while they jump on people for putting tabs out on the net, tracks we recorded years ago are for sale on ebay and the net, when I contacted them they said they couldnt so {censored} for us..

 

ya it's a double edged sword..

 

very selective in who they go after

[SteinbergerHack]

Yes, but they seem to only have those popular artists I'll never want to learn songs from. No Sons and Daughters (checked both - 0), 16-18 Pixies songs and none under either Frank Black or Black Francis. What I got when I searched is Black Sabbath and Clint Black. Hal Leonard does off a 72 page book of Pixies stuff but the site doesn't list what songs are in it. I'll bet they are the same 16-18 or close to it.

 

 

I think you have a good point here; if it's not commercially available, then there is no potential sale that is being prevented. There is no exception for inactive or out-of-print material, however, and there is good reason for this. Think of Disney's approach to release of their movies - they release each one for a short period of time every 7 years, in order to control demand and limit the amount of inventory that their retailers have to hold. This is their decision to make, as they clearly created the material, and they hold the rights.

 

Of course, this is quite different from something that is either long out-of-print or never printed, and is unlikely to be actively published in the reasonably-foreseeable future.

[Grantus]

music copyrights are stupid yes.. while they jump on people for putting tabs out on the net, tracks we recorded years ago are for sale on ebay and the net, when I contacted them they said they couldnt so {censored} for us.. ya it's a double edged sword.. very selective in who they go after

 

 

Then you need to get a lawyer, like the MPA has done, and go after people who are infringing your copyright.

 

This isn't the government going after people. The MPA is doing it on their own dime.

[Grantus]

I think you have a good point here; if it's not commercially available, then there is no potential sale that is being prevented. There is no exception for inactive or out-of-print material, however, and there is good reason for this. Think of Disney's approach to release of their movies - they release each one for a short period of time every 7 years, in order to control demand and limit the amount of inventory that their retailers have to hold. This is their decision to make, as they clearly created the material, and they hold the rights. Of course, this is quite different from something that is either long out-of-print or never printed, and is unlikely to be actively published in the reasonably-foreseeable future.

 

 

I think this is a good point, yes. And I'll suggest that the music publishing industry has been a bit slow to offer online distribution, and the online sites don't have the largest selection of stuff.

 

But a lot of bands will have songbooks or tab available online that you can buy legally.

[kwakatak]

It was nice to have the Powertabs to refer to, but in all I've gotten lazy with my own transcription skills because of it. Sure, I drastically improved my repertoire while the tab sites were running freely but I'd prefer to put a positive spin on this. Besides, I wouldn't mind paying $.99 for a Powertab file of a single song - as long as it was done right with all the bells and whistles. IMO that stuff on ultimate guitar just doesn't cut the mustard.