Members Jimbroni Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Lullaby. You got me. I even think the war drum thing is somewhat sexual. There's always a babe or two behind a good war. But lullabies? hmm. A mother's unconditional love for a child isn't even remotely sexual yet one of the most powerful forces on the planet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lakisha Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 That's why comments like "quit complaining" or "quit pining for the old days" are not very helpful or constructive. quit complaining Miss lee Flier! No straw man this time jus good ol recursion But I will need me a name for that straw man. maybe Ill have a buncha strawmen send me they demos, maybe a coupla straw women to. The big question gonna be do I pick a straw bimbo who look hot but dumb as a stone, or a straw poet who jus average lookin, wont let me mold em ta what I want, need fair pay, but full a "strawtistic expression"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Hell yeh its borin. Ma point is that when you zoom in, you paintin a cartoon that fall apart in the borin detail. Close up, the borin detail, it aint true. You got this thing about the rock poet who got "artistic expression" all about fair pay, dont wanna be played, etc. Then theres the bimbo who got the looks not the talent, get played and all that. I'm sayin smart an uglly verses hot an stupid thats a cartoon. Yeah Yeah it do exist no question. But mos artist dont look like that cartoon. Maybe the bimbo also got "artistic expression" and want fair pay, and the "rock poet" got nothin to say and no "artistic expression", an you got everythin in between. Once again... never said this wasn't the case, and THAT is why this argument is getting boring. You are arguing with stuff I didn't say. I simply said this dichotomy exists and that I see lots of examples of it in mainstream media - not that it represents every artist or that everyone is that way. Almost no one I know is that way either, BUT - and this was my point - when you turn on mainstream radio or MTV it SOUNDS like a cartoon. And the people on it look like cartoons. Therefore my assumption is they're signing cartoons and not all the other people you and I know who are not cartoons. If a artist got they act together and dont need no moldin, thats better for the label. They can put it out an make money strait aaway. No, they can't necessarily, and that's the whole point. Talented and saleable do not necessarily equate to the same thing. So whats "molding"? Willin ta go on Regis an Kelly an pimp they album? Uhhhh no. "Molding" means the label decides on the songs, chooses the producer, controls the arrangments, basically dictates the entire process by hooking up the artist with people who are proven successes. Some very talented upstart artist may not want to go with the program and thus they aren't going to stay with the label, if they can get signed at all. If they don't want their record to sound like the latest pop cheese, this could be a problem for the label. I DO know way too many people personally that this has happened to, a label signs somebody with a lot of talent and then insists on watering down what they do so that it will sell (or they think it will sell). If they have a battle with the artist on their hands, this isn't convenient and it's probably going to end up costing them money. So again... if they can find a pretty face who's willing to go with the flow, that's who they'll sign. Sure they'd prefer that person was talented as well, but not so talented that they might actually have some ideas of their own about how the record should sound. Logic 202: yo, the issue bout a "straw man" is a "straw man" iself. Logic 303: what Im talkin about is "recursion." Dig? Translate to Logic 101: Anyone who disagree with anyone disagreein with em always got that "straw man" handy. That straw man like a reflex, "yeah, but that aint what I said!!!" chasin away "maybe Im wrong." Sorry but I don't throw the term "straw man" around anytime someone disagrees with me. It does have a legitimate meaning, and trying to defuse that doesn't change the fact. I don't even think there is a "right or wrong" in this little "debate," it's mostly opinion and we have different perspectives due to, I assume, different experiences. And that's fine... but I really don't like it when people mischaracterize what I say. And you have done that here quite a bit. That IS a straw man. Newsflash: not every female artist who look good is a pussycat doll. Again: where did I say that? It depend on the genre. heavy metal got them huge ass advances. Hip hop? Maybe you could buy yousefl a meal with the advacne at the place where you still hadda work even after the album come out. Yes that's true, because hip hop was very underground for years before it went mainstream, and major labels wouldn't touch it. Nowadays there are more hip hop artists able to quit their day jobs, though. I knew plenty of non-metal bands who got decent advances for development, though, enough to be able to lock themselves in a room for a year and write songs and rehearse, anyhow. why not? Why not be in a indie an own a indie? Because I'm already spread too thin as it is, I couldn't possibly handle another full time project. Plus it's not something I think I'd enjoy - and with a startup business if you don't enjoy your work, it's hard to succeed at it. So what do YOU do, by the way? What's your role in all this, or are you just hiding behind an assumed name and a lot of fake street talk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jimbroni Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Damn. I don't know how you made it through that. I would have needed a translator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members slight-return Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 quit complaining Miss lee Flier! No straw man this time jus good ol recursion I think you mean reiteration there Elvina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RobRoy Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Yeah, the sad thing about this whole music video thing is that it has created this whole phenomenom of music as being something you watch, not something you hear. The best thing that could happen is the abolition of music videos for ever. We really need to bring back an esthetic in which music is something that you hear first and foremost. People sold records before the invention of the music video, and by removing music videos, the budget for creating a record is greatly reduced. anyway, I'm just stating this as an opinion, I know that this will never happen because the public is just too weaned on these music videos, and the public that pays the most money for music is teeny boppers and music videos are the new cartoons. Well, since it's just an opinion, I'll chime in with my own. Basically I separate music into two categories - recorded and live. I definitely see live music as something you watch. I like good stage showmanship and love watching good musicians handle their instruments. I also like to watch the "team" on stage really work well together and get into that all elusive "zone". Regarding recorded music, I consider it something that goes with something else - your commute, working in the garage, selling soap, riding the elevator. The only exception is vinyl. Even though it clearly does not souind as good as CD's, there is nothing like dropping the needle in the groove, grabbing your favorite "sipping" adult beverage and sliding in your chair strategically placed in the "sweet spot". Note: This only works with two stereo speakers. Surround sound or other newfangled modifications are not acceptable! A lava lamp will only enhance the experience. Oh, if anyone is looking for a good turntable, here you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lakisha Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Damn. I don't know how you made it through that. I would have needed a translator. Yeh bitch. All I gots ta say is that when I read YO {censored}, all this "all music is sexual an sensual on some deep level bla bla bla" Im thinkin YOU DEAD ON RIGHT. So diss me all you want, Im still gonna think you runnin with the torch. The thing you said bout Mozart an Beethoven got me lost an sound like it got you lost to. But everythin else, BULLS I baby, bull fukkin I. Miss Leeflier, if Jimbroni fail ta understan what Im sayin, plze translate fo the bitch. thanx. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RobRoy Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 The thing you said bout Mozart an Beethoven got me lost an sound like it got you lost to. But everythin else, BULLS I baby, bull fukkin I. Well, at least he used common english. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kestral Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Ani DiFranco is pretty damn fugly yet she's selling tons of records. btw, I think this image thing applies to guys as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Ani DiFranco is pretty damn fugly yet she's selling tons of records. Turns out that if you write really great, compelling songs and perform them well, you don't have to hit the gym quite as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted May 23, 2007 Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Turns out that if you write really great, compelling songs and perform them well, you don't have to hit the gym quite as much. Yeah, well she also did it without a label. Mad props to her for that. She knew exactly the point being made here, that a label was never gonna sign her and invest in her development. She's a prime example of someone who proves my point. And that's what cracks me up, the labels are such idiots. There is really nothing they do anymore that a talented musician can't do for themselves or hire a motivated publicist to do, it just takes longer. There are still plenty of valuable things labels COULD do if they weren't idiots... but they are, and considering how much money they have to throw around that could benefit artists, fans AND the labels... that's just lame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HCarlH Posted May 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted May 23, 2007 Ani DiFranco is pretty damn fugly yet she's selling tons of records. That's 'cause she appeals to lesbians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 I had a friend, a female folk artiste, with exceptional vocal and stunning guitar chops. Though getting on in years now (she's 45 now), she was-- is--- still very attractive... Nice face and figure. In her younger days she was in fact "model-hot". I have trouble with her showbiz image though, and told her so.... for I felt it was holding her back from greater success. It's like this: To my way of thinking, a female pop music performer has to very quickly announce whether she is a "good girl" or a "bad girl". Neither style is inherently better than the other-- there are brilliant girl performers in either camp. But audience members--- especially those of the male variety-- demand to know whom they're dealing with-- The Madonna or The Whore? ie., a girl who is soft, sober, tender, motherly and upright; or a girl who is hard, overtly sexual and seductive, openly into booze and drugs and kink and God-knows-what-else. Both images could, in fact, be completely false in the woman's real life-- existing only as a showbiz front-- but they are quite necessary, as I see it, from a marketing/stylistic point-of-view. The aspiring female pop singer who fails to quickly align herself in one or the other camp, but who reckons she'll just "be both" or "neither" is in for a lot of career stoppages and frustrations... Notice I didn't say that this particular showbiz "Law" was fair or nice or desirable, but it exists nonetheless... Agree? Disagree? Famous "Bad" girls: Amy Winehouse, Janis Joplin, Li'l Kim, Melissa Etheridge, Bette Midler (in her earlier days), Bonnie Raitt in her early days (e.g. She'd come onstage soused and exclaim into the mic: "I don't wanna see any face in this room that I haven't sat on."), Roseanne Cash (once announced that she had come along to "put the c**t back in Country"), Joan Jett, Grace Slick, Nico, Grace Jones, Ronnie Spector, Mary Weiss of the Shangri-La's, Maria Muldaur, Madonna (despite her name!!), Annie Lennox, etc. Great "Bad" Girls of Yore: Josephine Baker, "Ma" Rainey, Bessie Smith, "Big Mama" Thornton, Julie London, Eartha Kitt, Etta James, The Andrews Sisters (believe it!!), Jane Birkin, Brigitte Bardot, Marlene Dietrich, Edith Piaf. They actually tried initially to skew Rosemary Clooney as a "bad girl' with her first big hit, "Come On-A My House"-- wonderfully suggestive lyrics, the song embarrassed Clooney terribly-- but she ended up being truly a "Good Girl" type. Beyonce Knowles, Whitney Houston and Jennifer Lopez might dabble with a "Bad Girl" thang every now and again, but all three are very much Good Girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 Interesting observation there rasputin... yeah it does seem like women are boxed into tighter and more black-and-white stereotypes than men are, when it comes to defining what "sexy" is. Maybe there are a few other stereotypes, like the goofy/nerdy girl a la Cyndi Lauper or Lisa Loeb, but even those are kinda few and far between. In any case I'm with you that that's the problem I have with it - not so much that women are expected to be "hot" but the ridiculously narrow and cartoon-ish definition(s) of what "hot" is. Image and sexiness definitely helps men in the biz too, but I think that there's a lot more flexibility in terms of what makes a man sexy. There are male stereotypes of what's sexy, but I think women are more open to making exceptions I guess... I know I am, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DevilRaysFan Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 Just my personal fancy, but I wouldn't call Tracy Chapman or k.d. lang hot but both were fairly successful me thinks ( and I like the music of both! ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DevilRaysFan Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 Almost no one I know is that way either, BUT - and this was my point - when you turn on mainstream radio or MTV it SOUNDS like a cartoon. And the people on it look like cartoons. Therefore my assumption is they're signing cartoons and not all the other people you and I know who are not cartoons. Ya know, Ms Flier?.. you and I may have disagreed here and there in the past, but I'm with you on this one In the mid-60s to early 70s, music was about music and labels were about music-as-an-artform. Artists could write and perform music without a thought or consideration to hair, looks, or even hygeine. It was when non-musician business guys, example such as Robert Stigwood and the RSO label, entered the picture with ideas of 'formulas in rock' that laid that corporate blueprint is when music artists became less of a commodity and schtick was a grander appeal ( or so they still keep telling us). One thing I love about the MP3 revolution, its leveled the playing field: a guy/gal with no looks but oodles of natural talent can sell just as much honest music as some homogonized corporate creation just by virtue of the net Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 I think, whenever an artist, male or female, comes out of or is aligned closely with, the American "Bible Belt" states, then he or she is going to have a harder time of pulling off a "bad boy" or "bad girl" image. This is what has happened to both Whitney Houston and Britney Spears (the first closely allied to the black church, the second, basically a working-class white Southern girl, despite her glossier Lolita/jailbait image). Something opposite happened to Elvis Presley. He was unequivocally great when he ws playing the skinny, sneering hopped-up Bad Boy. He was, in effect, the Johnny Rotten of the 1950's. But when they tried to clean him up and present him as the All-American, government-respecting, happily-married family man in the late-60's, early-70's, he started to implode and never really recovered... essentially you had a bona-fide "Bad Boy" trying to pass himself off as an ersatz "Good Boy".... which he wasn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 Just my personal fancy, but I wouldn't call Tracy Chapman or k.d. lang hot but both were fairly successful me thinks ( and I like the music of both! ) True... but they made names for themselves quite awhile back, relatively speaking. It seems like this latest ratcheting up of the "hotness" factor has been pretty recent. Definitely, as late as the 90's it wasn't quite so much of a factor, although one could say it's been headed in this direction since the birth of MTV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 ... whenever an artist, male or female, comes out of or is aligned closely with, the American "Bible Belt" slightly above the belt: . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 slightly above the belt: . Angelo! That photo makes my brain implode! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jimbroni Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 I think Ani Difranco is hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted May 24, 2007 Members Share Posted May 24, 2007 Nice tattoo photo, Angelo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lakisha Posted May 25, 2007 Members Share Posted May 25, 2007 So what do YOU do, by the way? What's your role in all this, or are you just hiding behind an assumed name and a lot of fake street talk? Dam gurl, you not tryin to make out like the Big Bad Producer Man tryin to get me to toss ma "street talk" jus to get on MTV an sell mo records? Which aint answer yo quuestion. What do I do? I sing. "So what do YOU do, by the way?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boosh Posted May 25, 2007 Members Share Posted May 25, 2007 slightly above the belt: . Couldn't she just have a line like "Musician's Entrance" Tattooed on there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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